Anti-Inliner Prejudice?

[whitfang]

Why is it that many traditional muzzleloaders dislike inline muzzleloading so much?

I lurk around on the Graybeard traditional ML site,  and others that are much worse,  as far as treatment of inline shooters.  Sometimes it's like being Ted Nugent at a PETA birthday party!   :shock:

The thing is, most inliners are (or were) traditional shooters.  I still have a T/C Hawken that I shoot with powder, roundball, patch and cap.  Is it that much of a problem that we've moved on to Encores and Knights and (heaven forbid) Savage 10MLs that upsets them?

I used to think that a shortage of deer could be a problem.  In Indiana, in my county you could take 5 deer (only one buck) with bonus permits.  You could take part in the Urban hunts, Military Refuge hunts, and you could hunt other counties with higher bonus limits.  Shortage of deer is NOT the problem in the midwest.  

But what IS the problem?   :?

[Nic_58]

I've heard a few comments around here where I live from some traditional M/L hunters and from what I gather, some are not fond of the "high-tech" inline guns have brought to the table, such as scopes, 200+ yd. shots, etc.  I think they feel that the muzzleloading seasons have taken on the "free for all" atmosphere that the regular firearms season has been known for.  It wasn't too many years ago that I knew only a handful of M/L hunters, now practically everyone I know has a M/L or wants one!  At least I feel that is the sentiment from a very few I know, most are very acceptive of the liberal M/L regulations in Missouri.  I think it is just the signs of a very popular and growing sport!

[RandyWakeman]

But what IS the problem?   :?

Don't know-- some folks might think that just because you like to shoot a variety of action types that one gun is "more of a rifle" than another.

This groups sub-1-1/2 MOA with Ashleys, and hits with over 1000 fpe @ 230 yards. MPBR (8" kill) is in excess of 171 yards.

[Wolfhound]

Why is it that many traditional muzzleloaders dislike inline muzzleloading so much?

I lurk around on the Graybeard traditional ML site,  and others that are much worse,  as far as treatment of inline shooters.  Sometimes it's like being Ted Nugent at a PETA birthday party!   :shock:

The thing is, most inliners are (or were) traditional shooters.  I still have a T/C Hawken that I shoot with powder, roundball, patch and cap.  Is it that much of a problem that we've moved on to Encores and Knights and (heaven forbid) Savage 10MLs that upsets them?

I used to think that a shortage of deer could be a problem.  In Indiana, in my county you could take 5 deer (only one buck) with bonus permits.  You could take part in the Urban hunts, Military Refuge hunts, and you could hunt other counties with higher bonus limits.  Shortage of deer is NOT the problem in the midwest.  

But what IS the problem?   :?

First thing you have to realize is that there are several categories of traditional shooters. The first category is the diehard trads. These people belive that anyone shooting anything but originals or custom rifles made historically correct are not traditional (generally these people are flintlockers). There is also a similiar category but also allow caplocks. Then you have the more relaxed trads which allow sidelocks of modern manufacture. All of these are totally against scopes, sabots, peletized powder, and non traditional ignition. In other words, everything that inliners represent. Then there is the most liberal bunch that considers any sidelock -even with scopes, fiber optics, and such- traditional. To the other three categories these are just as bad as the inliners.

Since most of us lump all sidelock shooters together in the traditional category, we don't realize that some of them fight amongst themselves as well. However they will all argue against the inlines. I've argued with several and the ones I actually agree with are those in the western states where game populations have a much lower density. In these states it actually makes sense to limit technology. In many of these states you are also limited to one tag regardless of method. These are generally the loudest trads when it comes to arguing online. The others who live in states with abundant game have nothing exept the fact they were here first in many states. These people really have no REAL reason to not allow inlines into "their season". Some states which never had a traditional season could care less which muzzleloader a hunter uses. Despite that, the ones that pick inline still get riddiculed by trad shooters.

Basically to the trad we are neither fish nor good red meat.

[RandyWakeman]

Maybe one shining day hunters will come to understand that fellow hunters' personal preferences in equipment choices are hardly worth the bluster devoted to it?

Naw. :oops:

[Thomas Krupinski]

I suspect that the reason for the prejudice or bad mouthing it that those folks that do that, just really want to be respected for what they are trying to accomplish with those tools.  

They may feel that the technology advances deminish the extent of their accomplishments when they are compared within the same catagory.

[AndyHass]

Maybe you read the reaming I got on the Traditional board for suggesting a new caplock shooter start out with 777 since it is easier to come by and clean?  
   The hardcore traditional crowd (at least the vocal ones) seem to be militantly insecure about their choice of how to pursue the sport.  Anything that isn't exactly what they do is not only deemed wrong but viciously attacked.  Why?  My guess is, partly, the personality of the people who take part in the "mtn man" and "buckskinner" personas.
   I shoot both styles but I avoid traditional shoots because of the people I encounter.  It carries over online...they spend more time arguing about what fits in their category than talking about guns and shooting.
   In the field, any reason for disliking inliners is pretty much an excuse.  Before inlines became popular, I knew almost as many unskilled hunters that carried caplocks as now do so with inlines.  The whole excuse about getting to pursue "traditional" hunting without being bothered by "modern" hunters is moot, at least in my area.

[Cuz]

It has been my experience (and I got some of that) that no matter the endeavor, some would be against it and some for it and some down the middle. And, that right to choose is a RIGHT given us by the blood of many an American.

Purist 'help' to keep some of our past alive, but some of us grasp the present and try to overcome the problems of the past and look forward to a grand future.

I shoot an Omega 50 and percussion double 12 & 20 smoothbores. Oh, and a .36 ball and cap '51 Navy. Do not do the flintlock, but it has crossed my mine. However, I will NOT look down on someone who chooses to shot something different than I do. I like to shoot and the weapons I have chosen 'fit' me just fine.

In short, some folks would 'ream ya' if you wear the wrong color underwear. Enjoy your weapons and ALWAYS expect others to be a bit jealous of your ability to use that weapon well. Yelp, I said "jealous"!!

 :lol:

Cuz

[rickyp]

when the   "traditional  muzzle loaders" get on your case about using an inline with a scope Remind them that they used inlines during the civil war and had snipers using scopes for shots way beyond 300 yards.
The sabot is nothing new it to was used during the civil war mostly in cannons. so the inlunes with scopes using a sabot is nothing new and is not as high tech as they think.

[Graybeard]

Why ask a question and then censor the posters who "might" fit into the category you are asking about? Let them respond as long as they follow the rules.

No personal attacks. No name calling. No foul language.

Seems a valid question, let them respond.

GB

[Jim n Iowa]

When I started out in BP it was with a T/C Hawkin 50 percussion. A couple of my friends started the idea as county fairs had muzzle loader shoots, at frying pans and rope lengths etc. Soon this progressed as the cowboy shooting is now. Fair shoots were many living in wigwams, wearing davy Crocket clothes, big camp fires etc. I still run into these former fair shooters at our range, while I sight in my in-line and they practice with their trads, I notice no animosity, rather good fortune on this next deer hunt. Here in Iowa granny could fill out with a hammer. As I have hunted with both I understand why the American Indian was happy to get his hands on a Winchester.
Jim

[RandyWakeman]

No personal attacks. No name calling. No foul language.

GB

That would be refreshing-- but that has not been the case.

This very forum exists because the "so-called" traditionalists just couldn't bear to have "in-line" shooters among them-- and decided to vote it into place.

Personally, I could care less what equipment people elect to hunt with-- it is purely personal choice, and I spent as much time shooting sidelocks and flinters last week as I did a smokeless Savage. I enjoyed all of them.

[Redhawk1]

No personal attacks. No name calling. No foul language.

GB

That would be refreshing-- but that has not been the case.

This very forum exists because the "so-called" traditionalists just couldn't bear to have "in-line" shooters among them-- and decided to vote it into place.

Personally, I could care less what equipment people elect to hunt with-- it is purely personal choice, and I spent as much time shooting sidelocks and flinters last week as I did a smokeless Savage. I enjoyed all of them.

I agree with you on people should be able to shoot what ever they want. I also think we as gun owners, no matter the type, should stick together.  It is also good to be able to disagree with out making it a federal case or blowing it out of proportion. I shoot both Encore in-lines and side locks and love them both.

[Roger_Dailey]

Why is it that many traditional muzzleloaders dislike inline muzzleloading so much?

  I suspect its mainly just concern (fear) of change.  Technical progression seems to devalue prior investments in tools and training.  Another element is initial entry point.  Many of the "traditional" people got into the game with a large dose of nostalgia and/or living history interest.  The rapid growth in modern muzzleloading is pure economics.  The "modern" shooters of today will balk at future progress.

p.s. Here's one potential future: http://www.deathwind.com/

[sabotloader]

But, Crowfeather, on your "Traditional Forum" you do not want me to post because I am using sabots and copper clad bullets instead of RB or Conicals in my sidelocks, yet they (the rifles) are considered to be traditional.  In your statement on the "Traditional" forum, I believe you indicated you should only be discussing things that are appropriate to the "Period."  As you know the State of Idaho has not deemed it necessary to void the use of sabots.  Yet this morning I was out shooting a Renegade, which I truly enjoy but at the same time I would feel somewhat guilty, or I might even get told by some "don't post that stuff here": if I were to post or show these results of a traditional type ML in the "Traditional Forum" and it certainly is not appropriate for this "In-Line" forum.  So at this time there is not a place for a "modern shooter" shooting a "Traditional" Lyman or Hawken of one brand or another.

I guess I would classify myself as a muzzleloading, hunter and shooter - using either an In-line or a traditional rifle as the rules allow.  I have truly been bitten by the muzzleloading thing, the only time I use "high power" rifles any more is when on the rare occasion that we might hunt the Snake River Breaks and you are shooting across the canyons.

One more point I would like to make - anytime you are hunting with a muzzleloader - you are at a disadvantage as compared to a modern centerfire.  People that actually believe that an In-Line can do what a modern 270, 06, 7mm mag, 300 Win Mag. can do are really nieve

[grouse]

I have a one week season to hunt with scope and inline Muzzleloader. I have two weeks to hunt with a flintlock only. So i use them both all the time. The reason i think inline Muzzleloaders should be legal all the time is for the respect of the animal. I have seen so many deer hit with open sight flintlocks that were never found. Wounded and run off hurt. People who shoot and practice alot with open sights, this wont happen. But that's not going to happen that way. People with scoped inline Muzzleloaders will wound far, far less game. So to respect to the wild game that we all do. We should be able to harvest game the most humane way possible. Scoped guns is the way to go. Pretty hard to argue that.

Sabotloader,
           I am at no disadvantage with my inline muzzleloader. All my
Deer are shot under 100yds. At long Ranges i would agree.

[Underclocked]

Of all the "issues" in the world, this one has to rate right up there with eating soup with or without crackers.  Nobody that eats soup without crackers is welcome in my camp!!!   :roll:

[crow_feather]

Underclocked,

If you don't like the issue, don't read the thread.  You knew what it was before you started reading.
C F

[grouse]

Of all the "issues" in the world, this one has to rate right up there with eating soup with or without crackers.  Nobody that eats soup without crackers is welcome in my camp!!!   :roll:

UC, You are 100% right. This is really stupid to argue about. Whoever locked this topic, should of left it locked.

As far as the .270cal being more accurate? I never shot a 1/2 inch group with it. I did with my HB Savage inline. :-D

[RandyWakeman]

Underclocked,

If you don't like the issue, don't read the thread.  You knew what it was before you started reading.
C F

Crow-Feather,

If you care to be bossy-- feel free to boss yourself elsewhere. No one asked you for your help in what to read, what they know, or your advise on what to read.

Whatever it is you are attempting, it is not any debate-- nor is it civil.

[Graybeard]

When I UNLOCK a thread it STAYS UNLOCKED!

Side bar either via PM or on the Moderator's ONLY Forum. On that one read the CF comments and show me the problem.

We are VERY CLOSE to having a single Muzzle Loader Forum on here again.

GB

[RandyWakeman]

Why is it that many traditional muzzleloaders dislike inline muzzleloading so much?

Whitfang, certainly not all do. This excerpt from an interview that I conducted with Dr. Gary "Doc" White offers his take on the "traditionalist" :

RW: I'll confess to being a bit bewildered with the frivolous debate of "In-Line versus Traditional Muzzleloaders," especially when many of the guns characterized as somehow "traditional" are best defined as "non-replicas"? I personally find more tradition present in your White 98 with heavy conical and percussion cap use than some so-called "traditional" pieces. Knowing that you hardly have limited yourself to one action type or firearm design, just what are your thoughts on all this banter?

DOC: I was in the middle of it all, on the other side to start with, in the 70's. It all started when T/C brought out its Hawken, which didn't look at all like a Hawken, and which fired (ugh, as in not pretty) Maxi balls. We all thought it was awful. It was awful and still is, from a purely traditionalists viewpoint, It became very popular and profitable and nowadays when you say "Hawken" that's the gun you think of and that sidelock makers copy. It had a compromise 1-48 twist originally, to accommodate both round balls and the Maxi balls. This eventually brought Del Ramsey to think up sabots for pistol bullets, following Butler Creek's lead in developing a sabot for round balls, I can't remember what they called that little jewel. That intensified the fire, with modern hunters looking for technological improvement and traditionalists decrying what everyone saw as improved performance.

Of course, everyone had forgotten Col. Forsyth's little book, written in India in the 1860's that explained why BIG round balls were superior to slugs. He was right, still is, but he advocated 8 gauge (83 caliber) rifles throwing 2 oz (870 grain) balls. Fact is that such a rifle is almost flat to 100 yards, 2 inches of apogee if sighted at 100, and dropping to about 20 inches at 200 with far better than 1000 ft lbs of energy left. Its TKO factor is of course enormous because of its mere outside diameter. He shot sambar (Asian deer) and tiger with it, advocating shots to the head at ranges of less than 100 yards, but used it on elephant too. He said it didn't kick much, certainly not noticeable when shooting game. That aside, the saboted pistol bullet added to the traditionalists' argument that the original spirit of "primitive" muzzleloading was being violated, the argument being that a primitive season should remain primitive. Well, we both know it doesn't work that way, as in bow hunting, so away we go. When Tony Knight came out with an in-line action sabot shooting muzzleloader (the M85) in 1987 or so, that put the icing on the cake, some states making laws against sabots, in-lines and scopes, oddly enough mostly in the West, while states in the East, where the shots are far closer, didn't seem to care. Truth was, they had been in the game longer, and the rule making process was more quickly violated precluding the traditionalists making an argument, except in Pennsylvania, where flintlocks reigned until just last year.

Now a true traditionalist doesn't shoot a machine made gun, it has to be hand done, just like the stitching on his clothes. But for the majority, the fact that modern sidelocks, just like in-lines, are made utilizing modern industrial techniques, and are wax cast, sintered, cup cutter carved, CNC machined, machine inletted, sanded, and finished, could matter less. In fact, modern in-lines and sidelocks are made on the same machines for the bigger part and are all the more closely related by that fact.

Anyway, the whole argument is stupid, there's more than enough room for both sides. Fact is, amongst the majority of traditionalists I know, and I still go to Rendezvous and dress up in traditional hand sewn clothes and shoot hand made purely traditional flintlock rifles (even a wheel-lock at times), when hunting season comes, they either take themselves to a private location where more modern hunters can't penetrate, or get out an in-line and go hunting in camo. Many cross over the line, using a sidelock with a fast twist, long bullet barrel. Of course, that's what Whitworth advocated in the 1850's. His "Sporting Rifle" was exactly that, a sidelock, and elegant as hell, with a fast twist, long bullet barrel capable of shooting circles around its competition. That's one reason I admire the guy so much: he started it all.

Of course, no one at a modern Rendezvous shoots an original rifle. We used to, I took Jim Bridger's last Hawken to Rendezvous at Fort Bridger in the 1970s and nobody thought a thing of it. It is a 52 caliber and a good shooter as well. It's now in the Montana State Historical Museum in Helena, MT. We had it at Green River Rifle Works for a few years while we made replicas for them. That all ended just as soon as the original arms increased in value to the point that most rarely dared using one of them. So the traditionalists' argument is not only full of holes, it is specious and silly. No modern shooter argues about a 30-30 cartridge vs. a 300 Winchester Magnum round-- at least in the sense of sidelock vs. in-line. There is a difference, of course, but only in how you use it. That should be true in a comparison of the side-lock's slow rate of twist, roundball shooting rifles and the faster twist, longer bullet shooting in-line rifles as well.

RW: When you speak of the "blackpowder muzzleloading envelope," is that static or dynamic? After all, your barrels are certainly a big jump up in tolerances, strength, and quality from the old cast-iron barrels of one hundred and fifty years ago, Triple 7 is a lot different from traditional black powder, the pellets are not powder at all, and plastic sabot technology was not in common use even twenty-five years ago.

DOC: The envelope is of course dynamic, which is the major complaint of the traditionalist. They want it to be static and never changing. I like traditional guns too, just love flintlocks, but fully realize that the ones I make are a far cry different than the one Melchoir Fordney made in the 1780's.

Machine pre-carved stocks to reduce production time, Dremel tools instead of chisels for inletting, Bridgeport mills for octagoning barrels rather than hand forging and draw filing, cheap rolled steel GBQ quality, Stainless touch-holes, investment cast accoutrements, screw machine made parts, all done to a standard that was unheard of just 20 years ago, let alone 200. I don't think we have even scratched the surface yet. The market is going to be every bit as dynamic as archery, which is in such a constant state of flux that it's damn difficult to keep up.

Wait till someone invents an accurate smoothbore projectile. We use them in cannon, why not muzzleloaders, or modern rifles? When is a muzzle loading cartridge going to be marketed? Buy a box for your rifle just like buying a box for your .270, and every bit as accurate and efficient. Shippable in interstate commerce just like cartridges are now. Fly on an airplane with them too. When will a standard primer be adopted by the industry? One that really works: keeps out the moisture and totally prevents blowback? It has to happen, simply because the market will demand it. Don't know when, or by whom, but it will happen.

[big6x6]

"We are VERY CLOSE to having a single Muzzle Loader Forum on here again."

Why?

It doesn't matter WHAT someone shoots, there are children dressed as adults in BOTH groups.  Can't change that.

[whitfang]

Holy Flying Catfish!

I haven't been reading online gun forums for very long.  I didn't realize I was asking a group of Israelis and Palestinians what kind of pizza we should get for lunch!  

The traditional and inline forums should not be re-combined; there are too many detailed questions that would not interest the other part of the group.   :cry:

[Roger_Dailey]

Wait till someone invents an accurate smoothbore projectile. We use them in cannon, why not muzzleloaders, or modern rifles? When is a muzzle loading cartridge going to be marketed? Buy a box for your rifle just like buying a box for your .270, and every bit as accurate and efficient. Shippable in interstate commerce just like cartridges are now. Fly on an airplane with them too. When will a standard primer be adopted by the industry? One that really works: keeps out the moisture and totally prevents blowback? It has to happen, simply because the market will demand it. Don't know when, or by whom, but it will happen

  Yes, that will happen.  The only limiting factor is economics.

[Roger_Dailey]

I haven't been reading online gun forums for very long.  I didn't realize I was asking a group of Israelis and Palestinians what kind of pizza we should get for lunch!  

  This is pretty mild; just wait until someone get pushed back into a corner!

[crow_feather]

1.  This has nothing to do with in-line vs. Traditional shooters or equipment.  

2.  This disagreement had to do with Randy Wakeman deleting valid posts and locking a thread simply because he didn't like what was being written.

3.  When he was called to task, he tried to turn it into a disagreement between Traditional, and in-line shooters.

4.  One thing Randy does well when he gets caught with his hand in the cookie jar is to throw blame in another direction.  

C F

[RandyWakeman]

1.  This has nothing to do with in-line vs. Traditional shooters or equipment.  

2.  This disagreement had to do with Randy Wakeman deleting valid posts and locking a thread simply because he didn't like what was being written.

3.  When he was called to task, he tried to turn it into a disagreement between Traditional, and in-line shooters.

4.  One thing Randy does well when he gets caught with his hand in the cookie jar is to throw blame in another direction.  

C F

1) Glad you still do not engage in personal remarks. :-)

2) There is no disgreement-- except for the "valid" part-- or those compelled to tell other posters what threads they need to read.

3) It is nobody's business what another elects to hunt or shoot with-- that's my opinion.

4) As far as cookie jars, I like crackers in my soup. When it comes to "blame," there is always more to go around than those willing to accept it.

Thank you for your "contribution."

[chickenlittle]

Personally, I like any ML, in-line or sidelock.  As such, I also notice the anti-traditional gun remarks from some in-line fans.  Typically it is how traditional guns are just inferior deer-wounding instruments and real sportsman should know better.  Might be the same people who think I should sell my .30-30 and get something chambered in the latest .300 shoulder-crushing magnum cartridge.

Now we should all realize that it isn't the gun or projectile that wounds a deer, it is the hunter that chooses to take a shot outside his or his equpiment's capabilities.  Just putting a scope on it, as Grouse suggested, doesn't mean you can't cripple the nicest buck you ever saw.  If you attempt a 200 yrd shot when you've never shot your ML-10 farther than 100yd, it is the hunter being irresponsible, not the ML-10.

[crow_feather]

Nice talkin with you Randy,

C F