Author Topic: Rules at the 2004 Nationals (Read 1968 times)

40x40 · « **on:** June 22, 2004, 10:06:45 AM »

Just a couple of questions I have regarding the 2004 SB Nationals at Raton. I tried calling Greg Connor but he won't be back until Friday.

EYE PROTECTION: Is this strictly enforced?

5 ROUNDS ARE ONLY ALLOWED ON THE SHOOTING STAND: What if you have a misfire and need another round OR you have a jam and eject the unfired round on the ground? I know we will have a scorekeeper. Will he allow you to take another round from your pocket if you do need another round?

chunter · « **Reply #1 on:** June 23, 2004, 05:20:41 AM »

From what I understand, the reasoning for the 5 rounds policy is because they want you to take an alibi if you have a problem. From what I remember there is always quite a few people that need them for each relay. Especially if Lones Wigger shows up. :wink:

I don't know for sure on the eye wear, I do think that they request that you have it though.

It was good talking to you the other night 40x40. I guess we will see you at nationals.

40x40 · « **Reply #2 on:** June 23, 2004, 08:06:14 AM »

Quote from: chunter

From what I understand, the reasoning for the 5 rounds policy is because they want you to take an alibi if you have a problem. From what I remember there is always quite a few people that need them for each relay. Especially if Lones Wigger shows up. :wink:

I don't know for sure on the eye wear, I do think that they request that you have it though.

It was good talking to you the other night 40x40. I guess we will see you at nationals.

Thanks!
My eyewear gets in the way and....
My 54.18 gets a stovepipe if I don't cycle it fast enough. Single feed is slower but sure, but like you said, there may be wind to wait out. Then you have to shoot fast, and the magazine will give you more time.
Hope they don't put me next to any of these top shooters like Wigger. I already have enough of match nerves just thinking about shooting there.
See you at the nationals.

GeoNLR · « **Reply #3 on:** June 23, 2004, 10:24:04 AM »

Quote from: 40x40

Quote from: chunter
From what I understand, the reasoning for the 5 rounds policy is because they want you to take an alibi if you have a problem. From what I remember there is always quite a few people that need them for each relay. Especially if Lones Wigger shows up. :wink:

I don't know for sure on the eye wear, I do think that they request that you have it though.

It was good talking to you the other night 40x40. I guess we will see you at nationals.

Thanks!
My eyewear gets in the way and....
My 54.18 gets a stovepipe if I don't cycle it fast enough. Single feed is slower but sure, but like you said, there may be wind to wait out. Then you have to shoot fast, and the magazine will give you more time.
Hope they don't put me next to any of these top shooters like Wigger. I already have enough of match nerves just thinking about shooting there.
See you at the nationals.

I thought that if your rifle has a feeding device, such as a magazine, all rounds have to be feed from that device? Or is the only in high power? Just curious....

Once again, I'm new and I have not read the rules for the nationals BUT, I have heard from mutiple people that the nationals at NM require eye wear. I know of at least one guy who bought a different type and has been shooting with them to get used to it before the match. I know that dosen't "prove" anything, just passing along what I have heard...

Good luck and wish you many "X's"

George

nomad · « **Reply #4 on:** June 23, 2004, 11:13:42 AM »

Hunting rifles must be loaded from the magazine -- if repeaters. AFAIK there's no requirement for loading from the magazine in standard rifle, either SB or HP...

Just looked at the program and it specifically states that Whittington Center requires ear and eye protection. (There's a note that anyone unable to use ear and eye protection will NOT be permitted to compete.)

cslcAl · « **Reply #5 on:** June 23, 2004, 01:42:25 PM »

Nomad, I heard a rumor over the weekend that the hunter loading rules now allow you to single load as long as the round is placed in the magazine and fed from it into the chamber. I was not aware that it was changed from loading the magazine to capacity? Al

nomad · « **Reply #6 on:** June 23, 2004, 04:13:54 PM »

Al,

That's a new one on me.

I've always thought that you could single load through the mag AFTER you'd run a full magazine through -- assuming that you could only fit 3 or 4 into the magazine initially -- but I hadn't heard that it was OK to load one-at-a-time through the magazine from the start.

Sure would be nice if we could just set some rules and live with them -- unless there was a safety-related change mandated!

40x40 · « **Reply #7 on:** June 23, 2004, 05:45:47 PM »

I'm sure all this will be sorted out at the shooters meeting. At club shoots none of this is of any worry. I'm just glad I don't have to score myself and just concentrate on shooting.
Right now I dread the long drive there even though I already booked myself at the Super 8 in Raton. Hope to get some practice on the 10th the day before the match.

nomad · « **Reply #8 on:** June 24, 2004, 01:52:09 AM »

40x40

"Sorted out at the shooters' meeting..."

If that actually happens, it'll be no better than a second...and it might be a first! :-D

Welcome aboard and, if you see a little, fat, bald guy at nats running around threatening to give his rifle away and take up croquet, introduce yourself -- he's almost sure to be me!

BTW:
Al, I wasn't really very clear in the earlier post.

I've seen competitors with three or four-shot detachables load singles into the mag (without removing it) AFTER they ran the full mag through and consider that OK. (The Steyr mag can be single loaded through the mag without removing it.)

But I didn't think it was legal to go one-at-a-time from the start with either fixed mags or detachables.

Not sure what that would do for anyone anyway...unless it permits the top round in HP to be loaded to a different OAL than anything that would fit into the mag itself. Is that what you feel their purpose is? (I'd think that that would be taking a questionable advantage.)

Chunter, AFAIK the five round policy has always been to prevent anyone from 'forgetting' that he'd already run through his allowed number of shots and firing an extra or five. (It happens. We once had, at our club, a competitor who moved VERY quickly from newbie to frquent winner. Then someone noticed that he was always without a spotter when he won and that he was shooting pretty quickly. Quickly enough, in fact, that he was often running extras per bank -- sometimes two mags worth! He stopped shooting with us...) :wink:

40x40 · « **Reply #9 on:** June 24, 2004, 05:28:47 AM »

Nomad,
I just got started shooting SB silhouette last month. I agree it's very frustrating. I'm always so mad when I shoot. Everytime I miss I am quietly cussing up a storm to myself, and feel like throwing my rifle down the range. I wish I didn't get pissed so much at missing the animals. Others I see are very calm even if they miss the whole bank!

ajj · « **Reply #10 on:** June 24, 2004, 05:42:35 AM »

Nomad: I hear croquet is a wonderful sport. I'll be glad to hold the rifle for you.
40x: I've got the same problem. I know anger is a luxury we can't afford but I still struggle with tuning it out and going to work on the next shot. I think that's what separates the greats from the rest of us.

chunter · « **Reply #11 on:** June 24, 2004, 05:44:31 AM »

40x40,

I know how you feel about missing and getting upset. However, just remember this sport is just something you do for fun. I use to get upset a lot, however, now that my wife shoots with me and scores for me, we just have a lot of fun. I may shoot really well, or really bad, usually the later, however, I have a blast. It is all mental, and when I am not beating myself up, I have found that I shoot a lot better.

As long as I still can find my focus when I get on the animal, then I am doing okay. Remember when you are shooting silhouette, you are more or less a glorified soda pop can shooter. Just like when kids set up cans on a fence post and shoot them off with there Red Ryder BB guns.

40x40 · « **Reply #12 on:** June 24, 2004, 06:40:54 AM »

Greg Connor called me back regarding my questions.
He said the NRA doesn't require eye protection. If the range you are shooting on requires it then you won't be able to shoot unless you wear them.

Regarding 5 rounds on the stand. They just want you to keep track of how many you shoot. This is in the NRA rule book. So if you haven't been putting 5 rounds on the stand in club shoots, you are not following the NRA rules. If you have a jam or missfire and need an alibi like chunter said, you raise your hand after shooting that bank so you can finish with 5 shots. He even said if you have time you can pull out another round to make the 5 shots without calling an alibi. It's pretty informal what he said.

nomad · « **Reply #13 on:** June 24, 2004, 09:58:39 AM »

Greg may be pretty relaxed about this but I'd suggest that, if you start reaching into your pocket for extra rounds -- no matter how honest you are or how honestly you feel that you're entitled to do so -- you be ready to prove that you aren't firing any more than five per bank and that your reason for needing the extra(s) was valid.

People (naturally) tend to wonder about anyone hauling a sixth or seventh round out of his pocket. At most matches I've attended, anyone seen doing that would, at the least, draw some 'interested' spectators for a while!

nomad · « **Reply #14 on:** June 24, 2004, 10:02:15 AM »

Alston,

I appreciate your offer to 'hold' the rifle...but could I depend on you to give it back after I calmed down and wanted to try again? :lol:

ajj · « **Reply #15 on:** June 25, 2004, 03:01:16 AM »

Hey, you can trust me, Nomad. Remember that great scene from the old Paul Newman movie, "Harper?" "Big dogs are always licking my hand."

nomad · « **Reply #16 on:** June 25, 2004, 03:50:30 AM »

Alston,
Don't forget that I KNOW what you do for a living! :-D

yankee · « **Reply #17 on:** June 25, 2004, 04:29:38 AM »

It is always a good idea to wear Eye Protection when shooting. Even Rimfire. In 93 or 94 there were two 54's that blew their extractors off at the silhouette nationals. With small pieces of powder and metal flying around why take a chance. With centerfire all it takes is some dirt or bug in a case you have loaded and you are over pressure and blow a primer. That feels good on the face.
How many old shooters do you know that can't even hear the birds sing or a squirrel working on a nut.
Magazines--in standard rifle, single load or magazine, what ever you want.
Hunter rifle, if it has a magazine the cartridge must come out of the magazine. The rules used to say the magazine had to be loaded to capacity. That was dropped a couple years ago.
If you have trouble with a cartridge or have a missfire your best bet is to use an alibi. You start pulling rounds from your pocket some one is going to notice. Keep your spotter, score keeper and range officer involved.

nomad · « **Reply #18 on:** June 25, 2004, 06:06:40 AM »

Just checked the book and Yankee's completely right about the one-at-a-time loading -- the way the rule reads currently. (I need to stay more on top of the changes.)

Wonder if that was a simple oversight or if one of our barracks lawyers slithered that one past the committee when they weren't looking?

I can feed one round into the top of the magazine on my HP hunter (by any definition, it would be 'in' the magazine and loaded from it) and, using the slope of the loading ramp, load to an OAL more than .3" longer than anything that will fit deeper (as in loading more than one) into the magazine. That would certainly allow a shooter, by loading one-at-a-time, to use a longer throating/seating than anything that would work normally in a magazine-capacity loading situation. Give 'im a little 'jump' on another competitor (who loaded to magazine length) if they were both loading a marginal capacity round, or, maybe, allow more flexibility with different bullet ogives...

IMO this is certainly contrary to the spirit of the rules but, by strict interpretation, it meets the requirement as it currently stands.

If we're going to be this silly, why not just allow single loading in HP hunter and forget the magazine? (Actually, since the two-piece stock requirement has also been 'left out' of current rules, single-shot HP BOLT hunters are 'legal' -- but I've already brought that to Greg's attention and he said that they wouldn't be passed at tech...)

Ain't it amazin' how these things seem to just slide into the rules? Think it's possible that we've got some democrap politicians shooting silhouette? :-D

ajj · « **Reply #19 on:** June 25, 2004, 08:39:32 AM »

I've not read the rule in awhile, but am I right that not every ammo malfunction entitles you to an alibi? I think that if it's a handloading error, you're SOL. My last misfire, like most of them you see, was caused by an upside-down primer. (Yes, I check them all now.) Some folks use the same caliber in both guns, grab the wrong ammo box, and find that the rounds won't chamber. I don't think the rules allow you to do that one over (although I'd be hard pressed to tell a competitior that he just blew five targets.) I keep a centerfire round in my vest pocket for missfires and would certainly follow the excellent advice to keep the spotter, scorer and range officer involved if I ever had to use it. A guy who would fire an extra shot is a psychopath.

kahuna · « **Reply #20 on:** June 25, 2004, 12:51:47 PM »

Nomad
I still think the 5 Rd rule is in the book.
I thought that it only mattered in high power hunter.
I will see if i can find the rule number in the book and post it.
Larry

nomad · « **Reply #21 on:** June 25, 2004, 01:45:30 PM »

Larry,
I've got the current book and I don't see it anywhere in 3.1.1 but it's certainly possible that I've missed it.
I'm thinking that it may have gone the way of the two-piece stock requirement for single-shots...just overlooked at the printer.
If you find it I'll appreciate hearing about it.
Ernie

nomad · « **Reply #22 on:** June 25, 2004, 01:50:07 PM »

Too quick on the trigger!
It does only apply to HP hunter. 3.2.1 (Smallbore Hunter) specifically allows single shots. (AFAIK this was due to the 40XR being permitted and has now been extended to anything in smallbore hunter. I'm seeing Anschutz 54.18s with tapered bbls and Brown or Nesika stocks in hunter down here...don't really think that was the original intent!)

kahuna · « **Reply #23 on:** June 26, 2004, 11:31:00 AM »

Nomad
It is also listed in the firing line procedures
10.7 A.
Larry

nomad · « **Reply #24 on:** June 26, 2004, 12:01:22 PM »

Larry,

I've looked at that and don't see where it specifically addresses a requirement to load magazines to capacity in HP hunter.

Are you thinking that the sentence: "All cartridges will be loaded after the ready command is given." means that you must load all the rounds into the rifle at that time? (If it does, then the wording is pretty weak -- since it's impossible with single shots and rifles with limited capacities.)
IMO that sentence is just a poorly worded rephrase of: "No cartridges may be loaded until after the ready command is given."

IIRC (I've given mine away) the old books used to specifically state that hunter magazines had to be loaded to capacity prior to beginning to fire on the bank and any rifle that would not hold five rounds had to be reloaded through the magazine after the initial (full) magazine load had been fired.

This thing is giving me a headache -- I only have about two synapses to work with and we're stretching my abilities!

Mongo1 · « **Reply #25 on:** June 26, 2004, 08:15:26 PM »

Quote from: nomad

"All cartridges will be loaded after the ready command is given."

I think that this is how they wound up with their no preloaded magazine rule...all must be loaded after the ready command.

Isn't it great when you get to guess what they meant? :roll:

Hornetx60 · « **Reply #26 on:** June 27, 2004, 02:25:03 PM »

So who can explain the reasoning for the difference in the way this is handled from small bore to High Power.? It is perfectly legal to walk up to the line with loaded clips in small bore. But the clip must be loaded after the ready command in High Power. What sense does this possibly make. All it does is make the High power shooter rush his shooting in an already higher adrenaline situation. Ya that makes sense. I can agree with the rule that all rounds must be fed from the clip but the clips should be allowed to be loaded prior to the ready command. The cheaters will be caught if this is the sole intent of this rule. If this is the intent of this rule it is misplaced.

Mongo1 · « **Reply #27 on:** June 27, 2004, 02:53:45 PM »

Quote from: Hornetx60

So who can explain the reasoning for the difference in the way this is handled from small bore to High Power.? It is perfectly legal to walk up to the line with loaded clips in small bore.

Mutiny

nomad · « **Reply #28 on:** June 27, 2004, 04:27:42 PM »

Reesning? We doan need no steeenkin' reesning"!

AFAIK, the load after the command silliness came about because a whiner or two cried to the committee and got it pushed through.
Now, whether they're just cry-babies or whether they're smart enough -- and sneaky enough -- to have thought out that it's easier to load loose rounds into a fixed magazine than it is to load them into most detachable magazines and then insert that mag into the rifle is an excellent question!
You think they figured out how to slip one past the committee and grab themselves a small -- but clear -- advantage?
Please see my question above about a possible infiltration by democrap politicians... :-D

Hornetx60 · « **Reply #29 on:** June 27, 2004, 04:44:12 PM »

Oh I'm sorry I didn't understand the rules. I thought common sense was allowed ! :wink: Hell That's what I do in the woods. I wait until I see a deer then I start loading the clip and smak it into my gun the try and get a good shot off ,....as the deer bounds away snickering" must be a silhouette shooter" :-D