Author Topic: bore butter (Read 1787 times)

TC4ME · « **on:** June 26, 2004, 04:46:59 AM »

I have noticed that there are not to many positive comments about bore butter. I have read my owners manual on my new Black Diamond and that is what T/C reccomends. I am A newbie to muzzle loaders so I am in the dark. What is it about bb that people dislike? I have also read that some people on this forum have A theory that the use of petroleum base lubes cause the crud ring associated with T7. Because of this I have decided to burn Pyrodex P in my Black Diamond. I have not decided on which bullets to shoot yet, so I will probably take A variety to the range. Do the heavier bullets, 300+ gr. tend to be more accurate? Going to try to get to the range this weekend. I am getting impatient to get out and shoot this thing. Thanks for all replies.

whitfang · « **Reply #1 on:** June 26, 2004, 06:12:01 AM »

Seems like I have about 6 containers of BoreButter but I'm not sure why. The old T/C lead conicals had grooves that needed to be filled with BB, but since switching to sabots fulltime, I hardly use any.

Are you going to shoot sabots, conicals or Powerbelts? There's lots of data on this forum about making that choice. Then you have to choose a bullet weight, type, and manufacturer.

Your question about heavier (300gr) bullets is interesting to me since I have a pet theory about that. If you look at anything made to fly, whether it's an artillery round or a jet fighter or a Nosler boattail bullet or a javelin or an arrow, Rule#2 for accuracy seems to be that "longer is better." (Rule#1 is that the front end has to be pointy.)

Forgetting my theory for a minute, the industry standard for blackpowder inlines seems to be a 100gr charge with a 240gr saboted bullet. Which would probably be a good starting point for you. If you wait awhile, I'm sure some Black Diamond shooters will tell you what works for them in their guns. Then you have to ensure that it works in your gun too.

I believe in my theory enough that I shoot a 300gr Hornady XTP saboted bullet with 100gr of Pyrodex. I realize this is about as scientific as Phrenology (which is the study of personality by using the bumps on your skull) but it's worked out to be an accurate load for me.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #2 on:** June 26, 2004, 06:30:06 AM »

Quote from: TC4ME

What is it about bb that people dislike?

It is essentially "Udder Balm." It cannot "season" a barrel, and is a very poor bore protectant. As Underclocked says-- "Crisco tastes better."

Runny in hot weather, hard as a rock in cold weather, it is the apparrently the only part of road kill that they won't let into a hot dog. As far the the notion of "natural"-- so is oil.

whitfang · « **Reply #3 on:** June 26, 2004, 06:36:21 AM »

Sabots load easy, they usually don't need any lube at all. Same with Powerbelts.

It's real nice not to have the mess associated with lubricants.

TC4ME · « **Reply #4 on:** June 26, 2004, 09:45:01 AM »

Whitfang, I plan on shooting sabots or Powerbelts whichever shoot better. I also want to shoot a 300+ gr. bullet because I tend to believe that they will give me more knock down power. The more I read on which powder/ bullet combo to use the more I get confused. I guess I will just have to experiment. I am going to start with Pyrodex P and sabots, which brand I don't know. I am leaving for my local gun shop in about 45 minutes so I guess I better make up my mind soon.

Big · « **Reply #5 on:** June 26, 2004, 06:12:49 PM »

I don't get it, either. What is so bad about Bore Butter? Randy, you're funny, but you didn't really answer the question. Bore Butter has protected my Black Diamond, bore included, for over two years now. They're wrong when they claim that you won't need to clean between shots, but what is so dang horrible about it? I don't get it.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #6 on:** June 26, 2004, 06:31:11 PM »

It is rendered animal fat, with "pine fresh scent" if you choose. Regular use of bore butter has pitted many, many barrels. You can buy lard at your local grocer, and you have the same scenario.

There was a time when bear grease, etc., etc., was all that was available-- and the barrels were made of cast iron. Metal protectants have come a long way since road kill, though, and it should not be a shock why no modern firearms manufacturer recommends it aside from T/C-- and even T/C has notched down their rhetoric somewhat.

Animal fat and wax is in no way close in performance as a bore protectant to Breakfree CLP and many other products that are far more advanced. It is a high-profit item for T/C, and is just repackaged Ox-Yoke 1000 Plus. http://www.oxyoke.com/products/wonderlube1000.html

This should give you an idea of how bad "Wonder Lube" / "Bore Butter" is as to compared to other options:

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/mlexperiments/corrosion/corrosion.html

Though not comprehensive, Bore Butter (WL) was the worst product tested.

whitfang · « **Reply #7 on:** June 26, 2004, 06:48:36 PM »

BIG (and other Black Diamond owners), what kind of powder/sabot loads work best in your Black Diamond?

Thomas Krupinski · « **Reply #8 on:** June 27, 2004, 03:41:42 AM »

Randy,

Where did you get the ingredients for T/C Bore Butter? I remember someone researching it quite a while back and found it was bees wax, olive oil and scent.

Are you sure about the animal fat?

SURVEYOR · « **Reply #9 on:** June 27, 2004, 04:41:40 AM »

Quote from: Big

I don't get it, either. What is so bad about Bore Butter? Randy, you're funny, but you didn't really answer the question. Bore Butter has protected my Black Diamond, bore included, for over two years now. They're wrong when they claim that you won't need to clean between shots, but what is so dang horrible about it? I don't get it.

I'll tell you what's wrong with Bore Butter! It sucks! Using BB to protect your barrel from rust and one day the rust is going to win! It does a lousey job of protection aginst rust. Back when muzzle loader barrels were cast iron, did you get that cast iron, they were season just like a frying pan. Most barrels need someting better tand BB like Rem-oil, Breakfree CLP, Miltech, and others. Now it may make a fair conical bullet lube, but Criso does a good job by UC's seal of approval.

Get rid of the BB! It'll rust your barrel!

Jules J.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #10 on:** June 27, 2004, 05:37:26 AM »

http://www.pbsanimalhealth.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/uddercare/udderbalm.html?E+scstore

A soft teat is a happy teat. :lol:

I called T/C a long ways back and asked how it could "season
" a stainless steel barrel.

They replied, "it can't." Boiled extract of Fido it remains-- though I believe the they more tubes per horse. :roll:

Arrroman · « **Reply #11 on:** June 27, 2004, 02:01:54 PM »

I don't think any one of these with protect your barrel for storage or eliminate fouling problems. What they will do is to help soften the fouling a bit, and that is about all they do.

Good luck hunting!

Arrroman · « **Reply #12 on:** June 27, 2004, 02:09:25 PM »

I have used Bore Butter on top of the charged chamber of my blackpowder revolvers. Would not want to experience more than one chamber going off at a time. I think the consistency of the stuff is a bit of a compromise. Its almost too runny for the handgun and too gooey for the rifle. Anyway that's my take on it and I'm sticking to it.

Good luck hunting!

Big · « **Reply #13 on:** June 27, 2004, 06:57:38 PM »

Randy, you just might have me switching over to the Breakfree I use on my other guns. However, I have to say that there's never been a speck of rust on my Black Diamond, and all I've used is bore butter, applied thinly with a patch when the metal is still hot from hot water that's evaporated. Anything greasy will keep air/moisture away from metal, as long as that metal's clean and dry to start. That experiment to which you gave a link purposely did not clean the metal very well; those lubricants effectively sealed corrosive residue into the metal; why they all didn't rust, I can't explain.

Whitfang, my Black Diamond likes to shoot 240 grain Hornady XTP .44 cal bullets in TC Mag sabots, pushed by two 50 grain pyrodex pellets. I haven't experimented with much else, because that combination has worked very well. Something like 3" groups at 100 yards (not sure because I haven't measured), which is fine for the 50 yard or less range at which I hunt deer. Killed my first ML deer with it last season: the same six-pointer that had walked straight to my tree, stood straight under my stand, then walked straight away from my stand the day before - couldn't kill him 'cuz I had a bow in my hand that day, and he didn't give me the angle!

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #14 on:** June 27, 2004, 08:07:54 PM »

Quote from: Big

Randy, you just might have me switching over to the Breakfree I use on my other guns.

There is a lot of history behind Breakfree:

http://www.madogre.com/Interviews/breakfree.htm

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #15 on:** June 28, 2004, 01:47:43 AM »

In all my black powder guns from my Encore's, to my renegade to my Shiloh Sharps. I use breakfree after I clean the guns. I use breakfree in the barrel and on the outside of the gun. I then run a patch with bore butter in the barrel over the breakfree. I have never seen any rust of any kind. I guess I get double the protection.

AndyHass · « **Reply #16 on:** June 28, 2004, 03:48:15 AM »

The one and ONLY time I tried bore butter, it gummed up my barrel so bad that I could hardly get the sabots down. Maybe it works fine for barrels that see only conicals, but a lot of sabots fit pretty tight. No room for a gummy layer of dried animal fat. I use breakfree now, and not only does it protect well but it seems to pull more crap out of the barrel when cleaning.

Big · « **Reply #17 on:** June 28, 2004, 05:28:17 PM »

OK, but we just preserve and lubricate with breakfree, right? Still clean it with detergent and water or windex and water?

sabotloader · « **Reply #18 on:** June 28, 2004, 07:09:45 PM »

Gosh! it seems like we go through this same discussion every 6 months or so - and I almost hate to comment but here goes any way. I have been using bore butter for several years now in my sidelocks and my inlines-- I like it it works for me. I have never experianced the gummy problem that some say and I have yet to see any rust and litterally very little fouling. I can load shot after shot. Maybe the way I apply it makes a difference I don't know but it works. I also use "wonder lube 1000" in conjuction with it. A few months ago I did give up on it in one of my A&H's because everyone said it was terrible - went to break free like a lot of people suggested - well the other day I took the A&H out of the gun cabinet and ran a swab down it just for the heck of it - discolored with rust - very light mind you but it appeared to be there. I then went out in the garage and got a CVA Hawken that I had put away in November after hunting season - it was stored with Bore Butter and wonder lube ran a swab down it came out yellow - no problems....

So I guess it is "to each his own" Maybe so far I have been lucky but I really thinks it works if applied and used correctly.

Sorry to all of you that disagree.... Don't shoot the messenger.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #19 on:** June 28, 2004, 07:54:31 PM »

Me too! I've used BB and Wonder Lube for years, have never had any problems of any kind, it's good stuff IF you clean good first. I've got a couple persuction guns that don't get used much so they're stored for a yr or 2 at a time without any attention and they show no signs of rust or gummy residue. My inlines get nothing but BB in their bores and they're good as new and I intend to keep em that way using only BB and good cleaning practices.

RandyWakeman · « **Reply #20 on:** June 29, 2004, 02:26:24 PM »

If it works for you, you'll likely not change. Far too many reports of barrel damage to bother taking a chance, and there is little wonder why it is seldom (ever?) used in modern center-fires-- same barrel metal in T/C, Knight, etc.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #21 on:** June 29, 2004, 02:59:38 PM »

Quote from: RandyWakeman

Far too many reports of barrel damage to bother taking a chance, and there is little wonder why it is seldom (ever?) used in modern center-fires-- same barrel metal in T/C, Knight, etc.

I know a bunch(90-120) BP club shooters that have used it since WL1000 came out and are still using it or BB and have not had any problems in thousands of rounds over many years of use...certainly if there was a problem, at least some of those people would have said something. I believe the problem is from folks not cleaning properly...I've got 2 TC black diamonds, 2 TC hawkens among several others than get nothing but BB in their bores after cleaning with hot water and magic cleaner and there's no sign of any rust, built up gunk or anything other than a clean shiny bore in any of them. My experience, and those of people I know, tells me that barrel damage is caused by improper cleaning or use of BB, something that can happen with any thing not done properly.