Author Topic: 1911 vs Browning Hi-power (Read 3547 times)

jd45 · « **on:** June 27, 2004, 03:03:24 PM »

Hello to all! I'm new to autoloading handguns. I've recently aquired both a Colt Combat Elite & a Browning Hi- Power in .40 S&W caliber. I've heard that John Browning, in the Hi-power design, improved upon the design characteristics of the 1911, corrected its failings, etc. Would someone be kind enough to enlighten me on the nuts & bolts of just how my Hi-Power is a "better" gun than my (I love my) 1911? P. S. Both guns shoot great! jd45, & thanx for the feedback.

John Traveler · « **Reply #1 on:** June 27, 2004, 03:54:54 PM »

jd45,

The Browning HP design indeed represents design improvements over the earlier M1911.

First, Browning eliminated the grip safety (wanted by the US Ordnance Department), eliminating the occasional user failure to depress the grip safety in the firing stroke.

Second, the barrel-to-slide lockup was improved from the swinging link to a cam design. Improved breech alignment and accuracy is achieved. Takedown was also improved, and the barrel bushing elimniated.

Third, the magazine was increased to a 13 round double stack, and a magazine safety was incorporated. Unfortunately, because of the wide mag, trigger linkage had to be routed around the grip, up into the slide, and back down to the sear. Stock trigger pulls are stiff and poor.

Fourth, the overall ergonomics were improved (lower sight line, better fitting grip, almost universal acceptance by military and police)

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #2 on:** June 27, 2004, 05:50:19 PM »

Now for the un-improvements - the safety that wipes "up" to fire. Don't know why the 9's do that, but it drives me nuts when I switch from my 1911.

Blackhawk44 · « **Reply #3 on:** June 29, 2004, 01:26:25 PM »

Sorry Coyote, but the Browning safety is frame mounted (not slide) and flips down, just like the 1911.

Mikey · « **Reply #4 on:** June 30, 2004, 02:13:49 AM »

jd: I think two of the improvements of the P35 over the 1911 are the elimination of the grip safety and the increase in magazine capacity. John Traveler listed out more of them than I.

I have owned and shot both types of pistols and like them both. If I were to carry a 9mm it would be the P35, period. I don't particularly consider a P35 in 40 caliber to be any sort of an improvement. Mikey.

jd45 · « **Reply #5 on:** July 03, 2004, 03:28:32 AM »

Mikey, could you exlpain why you don't think the .40 cart is better than the 9? thanx-jd45.

BamBams · « **Reply #6 on:** July 04, 2004, 06:31:12 AM »

All ya really gotta do is compare the ballistics and energy.

spitpatch · « **Reply #7 on:** July 09, 2004, 02:08:44 PM »

I can tell you that a greater part special forces still carry the .45 for killing power. In a study conducted by special forces they gave the .45 a 95% kill ratio as opposed to the 9mm's 50%. To me that says it all.

jd45 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 09, 2004, 02:49:55 PM »

I went to reloadammo.com & looking at both carts, I got better numbers with the .40. jd45

Mikey · « **Reply #9 on:** July 12, 2004, 02:53:07 AM »

jd45 - just my preference for the 9 over the 40 S&W. As I read the current ammo and ballistic tables, the 40 is at its peak - can't do much more with it than what it is without running into pressure problems. I don't consider that much of an improvement, if any. Also, going back to the original developemnt of the 40 caliber pistol cartridges, I have always felt it a pressure and liability concern to try to upscale a smaller caliber pistol to a larger bore than (like 9-10_ than to reduce it (from 45 - 40), and in the developments of the original 40 calibers, that is exactly what was done and done in the P-35. I still prefer my Hi-Powers in 9mm, thanks.

Also, with the 9mm you still have reloading room to manuever and a pretty good selection of bullets to do it with, and still get the pistols to work effectively without running into pressure problems as have been described with the 40 S&W.

I certainly do not think or feel the 40 has anything over the 45 - if it did our SFs would be using that instead of the 45.

Hay, according to the ballistic tables the 45 gap outshoots the 45 acp but to be honest, you won't find either the 40 S&W or the 45 gap in my inventory. Just my two cents worth. Mikey.

Questor · « **Reply #10 on:** July 12, 2004, 11:48:27 AM »

I don't know what the "experts" think, but I like the ergonomics of the Hi-Power. The grip angle seems to fit me better, and it doesn't have the grip safety. It also is double-action instead of single-action and that seems like a safer design for most civilian carry situations. It's also a better looking gun. To me, the 1911 is an example of what happens when something is designed by committee. The Hi-Power is what you get when a master at the top of his game designs a labor of love. It just happens that there was enough goodness in the 1911 to be discovered by talented gunsmiths who have been able to channel it effectively.

I would like to have a Hi-Power, but just don't have an application for one. The 1911 is the king of the target center fires so I put my time and effort in to them.

One thing I prefer about the 1911 is the 45ACP cartridge. It's very forgiving and has low pressure characteristics. There's a longer learning curve because of the recoil, but for those who take the time to learn it's a great target shooting cartridge. Some say it's pretty good for self defense too.

Flint · « **Reply #11 on:** July 12, 2004, 01:44:20 PM »

As far as Committee design is concerned, recall that John Browning died before the Hi-Power design was finished, it was developed to production by others at FN. The Hi-Power, originally was (and should be) a single action auto, and most you will encounter will be single action.

spitpatch · « **Reply #12 on:** July 12, 2004, 06:47:08 PM »

They are both great weapons and I wouldn't hesitate to trust my life with either gun.....I own both and feel they both have their place, and either round can be manipulated for what a person wants (or needs). I don't own a .40 because I feel with these pistols.....WHY? I prefer my 1911's

TScottO · « **Reply #13 on:** July 17, 2004, 06:31:09 PM »

The slide on the Browning 40 high power is a good bit heavier than the slide for the Browning 9mm. The frame appears to be the same between the two but the slide has been beefed up for the 40 version of the Browning made high powers. The High Power 40s are a little more than a standard 9mm that has had its integrity compromised for the 40 version.

Be Safe,
Scott

Rogue Ram · « **Reply #14 on:** August 02, 2004, 04:29:14 AM »

This isn't really adding much, but dad carried a Hi Power he took off a German non-com thru WW2, and preferred it to the 1911 for a couple reasons. The Hi Power he had was made pre-war, and was so much nicer than the 1911 he just fell in love with it. He could carry way more rounds for it than the 1911 (important because he was in an armored unit & didn't have the rifle all the time), and he could simply get more ammo by taking machine pistol mags off of dead Germans. He said the Hi Power would shoot circles around the issue 1911 of that day.

The Hi Power was stolen on his way home from the war. I do have pictures of him with it though, and it did look very nice!

RR

spitpatch · « **Reply #15 on:** August 02, 2004, 07:23:44 PM »

Both pistols are good weapons.......you will get opinions on either side of this discussion......some people just aren't comfortable with the recoil of the .45. this argument can go on forever.
I will tell you I've been to competitions (with the locals) where they spend every bullet in the HP"s and glocks shooting at 6 bowling pins at various distances and not got them all where as I spent 5 rd's got 6 pins and still had two in the gun.
It all boils down to a persons comfort range with any gun. Best Regards

MSP Ret · « **Reply #16 on:** August 03, 2004, 01:42:17 PM »

Spitpatch, "some people just aren't comfortable with the recoil of the 45"

Let me tell you, after 32+ years in Law enforcement with local, state and federal assignments. Officers and agents in the know are not comfortable with the lack of stopping power in the 9mm!!! It is no secret that most elite units of both military and police who are thrown into "harms way" on a fairly regular basis and are allowed to chose a sidearm chose a .45 ACP in the 1911 design. It works, its reliable when the chips are down, and it stops the bad guys in their tracks!!! I carried one often before I retired and still do some occasional special assignments. I have a Browning Hi Power in 9MM for "polite/discrete" wear, but when it looks as if it might hit the fan the 1911 gets the nod every time. Why you ask? Because I want to come home!!!....<><.... :grin:

spitpatch · « **Reply #17 on:** August 05, 2004, 11:31:36 AM »

Hey MSP,
RELAX.....I'm in total agreement with you. Scroll up the posts and check it out. I'm a .45 fan-atic also. The gun I mentioned in my earlier post WAS a .45 1911 Kimber Custom Target........5 at the targets and 2 Rds. left would suggest a 7 Rd. single stack. I do like your enthusiam though! .45's forever!!!!!!!!

CornCod · « **Reply #18 on:** February 20, 2005, 01:03:39 PM »

I know that "mechanical ability" among American males is a great point of pride, but if your mechanical ability is average, the M1911 has a drawback. The firearm is an absolute terror to reassemble after field stripping. If you don't line up the spring in exactly the correct manner, the thing can't be assembled. I have owned an M1911 for ten years and have only shot it a handful of times because after cleaning the piece I invariably end up in a two-hour long "fussing and cussing" session. There is obviously some kind of" trick," but no one has ever taught it to me. I can break down and reassemble a Browing HP in about 30 seconds.

Flint · « **Reply #19 on:** February 20, 2005, 05:39:50 PM »

Yes, you can field strip and reassemble a Browning Hi-Power behind your back, but a 1911 style is not all that hard to assemble/disassemble, the only tricky part is keeping control of the recoil spring/plug when turning the bushing.

However, if you dig deeper, and disassemble the frame and lockwork, I'll choose the 1911 to reassemble every time, and anyone who has completely disassembled a Browning will probably agree.

Mikey · « **Reply #20 on:** February 21, 2005, 11:30:00 AM »

Flint - I agree with you.

CornCod - general field stripping of the 1911A1 pistol is an absolute piece of cake and as Flint said, it can be disassembled and reassembled behind your back. In general field stripping and cleaning, the only spring you have to concern yourself with is the recoil spring. This is really a piece of cake. And I am danged sorry to hear of how little you have shot your 45 and will have no more of it. I will personally walk you through field disassembly and reassembly so that you will have no excuse not to shoot the devil out of that thing. Please specify the procedure you use to clean your 45 after a trip to the range and we (me and all of us who frequent this site) will gladly assist you to develop a 1 minute takedown of the 1911A1.

MSP Ret: I really like your terminology of 'polite/discreet' wear, and the Browning Hi-Power is often my choice for those situations. As for loads - I am not uncomfortable carrying either straight ball or something in the 115-124 grain weight range at 1140 - 1200'/sec or so. I understand the Remington 115 (?) gn +P+ load is supposed to be excellent.

HTH. Mikey.

CornCod · « **Reply #21 on:** February 21, 2005, 03:33:04 PM »

Thanks Flint and Mikey. I think I have the "trick" now. That recoil spring guide just sitting on the top of the barrel threw me off. I downloaded the latest Springfield Armory manual on the web and its better than the one I got with the gun years ago. As I recall, the older manual didn't show the barrel link in the forward position clearly enough.

Once you get the knack, its not hard at all. I think I will shoot the M1911 at my next trip to the range. Thanks for encouraging me to give it another bash.