45-70 cast bullet hunting observations

[Dr. A]

I started casting just this past November and have and am still learning a lot.  I would like to know more people's observations of their past hunting exploits using cast bullets.  I have shot bought bullets and quickly decided I needed higher quality and better fit.  I have a Mountain Mold 405gr gas checked load that is really slick.  It knocks Bison down with ease and has proven to me it works for larger animals.  I am curious about deer, though.  I shoot this water quenched wheel-weight load at just under 1900fps.  I would like to try Lyman's Gould bullet at 1600 to 1700fps.  Any body have any experience with this?  Is this bullet to frangible?  Will it explode hitting a shoulder?  I am a little afraid the bigger 405gr. bullet will just punch holes in a deer.  I know that the large metplat will create a large wound channel.  I have several accurate loads for the Gould bullet.  I am just curious to hear anyones past experiences.  I have other molds, it seems these two might be the best for hunting.  Thanks to all in advance.  Incidentally, I have a 1895 22 inch barrel, and a Ruger #1 in the caliber.

[Castaway]

Doc, you asked about being too frangible.  That may be an issue, but I don't see it as one.  The best jacketed bullet around (Nosler Partition) is designed to blow some lead off the bullet after entry, and that's on 30 +caliber and less bullets.  Part of the reputation of the Partition is due directly to bullet fragements spraying out after entry.  Of course, the other factor is enough mass left to carry the bullet through the other side of the animal.  With a 45-70, it already starts out as large as a 30 caliber expands to and still has more mass when it exits.  I cast very soft bullets for mine.  Soft lead holds together and the result is a large parachute exiting the far side.  I think if you loaded the Gould and it shoots well, you don't have to worry about loosing any game or even tracking it very far.  With a 300 grain bullet or better at 1,900 f/s, you can go soft in your alloy and get an inney and outey with a chest shot on the biggest whitetail around.

[Kragman71]

DrA,
I agree with Castaway;softer is better for hunting. Hard cast is better for target shooting.
I hunt with the softest alloy bullet that will not leave lead in the bore.
That Gould bullet,in my mold,usually runs around 330 grains,and is a good choice for Whitetails.
Good luck,
Frank

[Larry Gibson]

Dr. A

"I would like to try Lyman's Gould bullet at 1600 to 1700fps.  Any body have any experience with this?  "

I have shot several deer with the 45-70 using cast bullets from trapdoor levels to .458 Win Mag (510 gr cast GC at 2050 fps) out of trapdoors, Marlin M1895 and a Siameze Mauser converted to 45-70.  First two deer I shot were with Lymans 457483, a 400 gr GC bullet, cast of WWs and velocity was right at 1700 fps out of the Mauser.  One shot was all it took for both as I didn't see the second deer standing perfectly behing the one I shot.  Range was maybe 75 yards with the bullet going through all four front quarters.  Both deer died on the spot.  Subsequently I have shot several other deer with the same bullet and a couple others including the Gould bullet.  

The Gould bullet is a PB bullet and when cast of softer alloys that reliable expand I could not get any decent or "hunting" accuracy with it over 1500 fps in any of the rifles mentioned.  Cast harder of WWs it would do ok upwards of 1700 fps but the one animal, a feral goat, I shot with it was flattened with the bullet shattering instead of expanding and all I found was chunks of the bullet in the off shoulder.  Both shoulders were pretty much ruined.  When cast of 1-20 alloy or magnum chilled shot (with 3-5% antimony and water quenched from the mould) the Gould bullets are a very deadly bullet on deer and accurate when velocity is held to 1450 fps or so.  Some report driving them faster with accuracy but I never could get them to do it.

Actually a good RN or particularly a FP GC bullet cast of 1-20 or the water quenched shot will shoot quite accurately up through 1700 fps and give quite good expansion, even on deer.

Remember that 405 gr and 500 gr 1-16 arsenal 45-70 bullets at 1300 to 1400 fps were killing deer, elk, grizz and hostiles with little difficulty a long time before the advent of "modern jacketed expanding" bullets with out too much problem, they still will.  It was really a 405 gr bullet out of a 45-70 M813/'79 trapdoor that "won the west", not a 200 gr .44 cal bullet out of a lever action.

Larry Gibson

[Dr. A]

Thanks very much for your experiences, gentlemen.  I am very anxious to try out some cast hunting.  It would be very easy to use jacketed and know the knockdown was assured.  Cast has just made me a little insecure.

[carpediem]

Greetings from the Great White North:

I do all of my hunting in Northern Alberta.  Most of the deer hunting is in heavy wooded cover and my average shot on White tail Deer is no more than 100 yards.

I have used both the 330 grain Gould hollow point mold and the 405 flat nose round point 45-70 bullets.

The gould bullets were cast using pure lead.  The 405s were cast using wheel weights and cold water quenched.

My wife won't let me use the 330 grain gould bullets any more because they destroy too much meat.  Expansion is very impressive.

The 405s work best for me.  Minor expansion; big hole in, bigger hole out and lots of blood coming out both sides.  Tracking is not an issue because if the deer don't fall over on the spot, they only go about 20 yards.

Do not worry about expansion with a 45-70 bullet.  You already have a bullet that is almost half inch in diameter.  And this is before it hits rib and any other bone or tissue mass.

Best of luck and kindest regards,