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Offline whitfang

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« on: June 28, 2004, 01:50:15 PM »
Can .44 caliber wads be used for a .45 caliber Ruger Old Army?  Are WonderWads best?  Where's a good place to buy/mail order?

Thanks
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Offline Shorty

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« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2004, 02:26:05 PM »
Wads?  What are wads?  Aren't they used in shotguns?  :wink:

Offline Cactus Cris

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« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2004, 02:32:26 PM »
It all depends on what results you are after.  YES they can be used.  If you are after a filler ( space ) then they work just fine.  If you are after a way to keep the C&B working longer- then IMHO they don't work.  You have to add some kind of lube somewhere during the loading process either b4 the ball is seated or after.  If ya don't, the cylinder will start to bind up after 2-3 cylinders worth.  I put lube (my mix of Spit Patch, Bore BUtter, Crisco) on top of the ball.  My pard puts his in after a card wad & b4 he seats the ball.  We both can shoot a 10 stage match without doing any cleaning till after the match.  I cheat a little by wipe'n the cylinder face with a damp rag just b4 loading after 5-6 stages.
  To answer yer ??   Yes you can use a wad.  Not cheap to get.  Try Thunder Ridge or Dixie gun works or Midway,  Midsouth.  Which ever is cheapest.
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Offline whitfang

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« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2004, 03:38:21 PM »
I thought (from reading this forum) that some shooters use a lubed wad as sealer over the powder, then the ball, and didn't provide any lube at all besides that.  Sounds like I'm mistaken.

Keep in mind that this is my first cap&ball revolver and it's on a UPS truck somewhere in Ohio.  So I haven't read the ROA user's guide yet.

What you're saying is that you have to provide some kind of lubricant.  You can load powder-ball-lube, or powder-wad-lube-ball.  Always.

Thanks, Shorty, I hope you've shot your wad now.   :)
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Offline filmokentucky

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« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2004, 03:56:28 PM »
I don't have much experience with using wads in C&B revolvers. When I
got started nobody was using them and everyone simply used a full charge of powder and lubed over the ball after it was chambered. We got
sighted in and just let 'er rip. I don't know anyone who uses wads or short loads. All that came along later. The light loads were supposed to be more accurate-some say yes-some say no.
   These guns are generally set up to use a full load. I just find the point where the sight is on for elevation and learn to hold over or under depending on the range. I suspect that's what was done back in the old days. Once in a while I've had to work on the windage and that can be a real pain- there's not much adjustment capability built into them. With the adjustable sight Ruger, your work is of course greatly simplified.
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Offline Singing Bear

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« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2004, 08:12:56 PM »
Whitefang!  Premade wads are expensive.  You can buy a 7/16" gasket punch and carpet felt and make your own.  In a pinch, I use craft felt and glue three of them together for a thicker wad.

Only reason why I use a wad is to prevent chainfire from a couple of cylinders that I experienced CF with.  Chambers were out of round, larger than the chamber mouth and allowed flame between the ball and chamber wall.  I'm talking pretty big gaps and lots of light showing between the ball and wall.   This "extreme" condition is rare, but I happened to get stuck with 3 cylinders like this.  All my other guns are fine.  Doubt you'll have this problem with a Ruger.  Tested them with wads  this weekend and had no problems with CF.  I usually use paper cartridges with no wads or lube since my guns only see 15 rounds each at a regular match.  You will need a lube, though, like others have mentioned.  My guns do start to freeze up at 30 rounds also.

All this being said, since you're getting a Ruger, you can just stoke'em up with no wads.  I seriously doubt you'll have the problems I've had with Italian clones.  Save your money on wads and use lube over the ball.
Crisco, lithium grease, beeswax/crisco mix, bore butter or whatever works for you.  :-)   Main thing, have fun lighting those puppies off.   Yeehaw!!!  :lol:
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Offline Flint

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« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2004, 08:31:25 PM »
Order about any muzzle loading equipment you may want from warrenmuzzleloading.com.  Mail order out of Arkansas.  The Wonder Wads sold for 44 fit 45 as 44 revolvers are 45's to start with.  I use them over powder always, with or without grease over, depends on the gun and the weather.  A ROA will shoot all day without fouling out.  A Remington will shoot a couple of cylinders full and a Colt type a few more, sometimes.
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Offline MOGorilla

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« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2004, 02:05:20 AM »
AS you can see, everyone has a different recipe for shooting.  That's one of the things I love about these guns.   I shoot mainly colts, a navy and an army.  I use the wads.  I buy the prelubed wonder wads.  If I lube the cylinder pin, I can shoot all day with no fowling problems.  The Remington I have, i periodically remove the cylinder and wipe down the pin, still with no fowling problem.  I prefer the wads to using an over the ball lube as in warmer weather, the over the ball lubes all are real messy.  I have shot in the dead of winter and the the over the ball lube was actually perfect to use, I probably need to add more beeswax to an over the ball lube for summer shooting.  Check out posts from Gatefeo, he has a lube recipe and lots of good hints as do many of the shooters here.  I never fail to learn something new hanging around this board.

Offline unspellable

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« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2004, 02:31:59 AM »
I used a very lightly prelubed wad under the ball in my ROA.  I have no problems with fouling, but then I'm a heretic and use Pyrodex.  (Actually, it's getting hard to find BP around here.)

Offline whitfang

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« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2004, 03:07:20 AM »
The cylinder pin get fouled and can freeze up?  That's something I would not have looked for.

Thanks for the help.
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Offline filmokentucky

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« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2004, 06:12:54 AM »
You need to be aware of how your revolver feels when it rotates in an
unfouled condition. When it starts to drag from fouling build up, you want to give it a quick wipe down. Working the action against too much fouling
drag can cause damage to the mechanism. Lube applied  over the ball tends to extend the number of shots before you need to clean. The ROA is
probably the least affected by this. When cocking the gun feels stiff, it's time to wipe it down.
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Offline Flint

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« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2004, 11:25:22 AM »
Whitfang, the powder fouling gets blown into the axis of the cylinder right below the barrel gap, and this is why the cylinder pin needs to be regularly wiped off and lubed with Bore Butter or other favorite NON- PETROLEUM lube to keep it turning.  The Ruger fouls less there as the cylinder has a gas ring like the Blackhawks (the extension forward of the cylinder face) to keep the fouling off the cylinder pin.  The Colt and the Remington percussions do not have it, so fouling gets driven hard into that opening.  The 1872 Open-top and the SAA Colt have gas rings, as did the break top S&Ws, which not only protect the cylinder pin from fouling but also set the headspace, more critical in the cartridge guns than the cap & ball.
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Offline Blackhawk44

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« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2004, 02:53:34 PM »
Flint and MOGorilla are right on.  Have used the wads in my ROA for years.  Came straight from the great Elmer Keith.  I like to smear a dab of Bore Butter or OxYoke on each one then lay them on butcher or wax paper then pop them in the microwave for 10-12 seconds (best done while wife is gone).  Melts the lube into the wad and keeps the fouling buildup way down.  Just drop them in a sandwich bag and keep in your possibles bag.  Use that same Bore Butter on the cylinder pin and your piece goes forever, unlike the replicas.   With the wads, you can use a holster and wear it year 'round.  Don't even think of trying that with grease over the ball.  You ought to see what summer in this Brush Country does to it.

Offline Gatofeo

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« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2004, 04:32:13 PM »
Stop using the Wonder Wads dry. Contrary to their advertising claim, I've never found them to lubricate as well as a felt wad soaked in a good lubricant.
With dry wads, the last three inches or so of my revolver bores (toward the muzzle) are caked with fouling. With a greased felt wad, the bores are relatively clean right to the muzzle.

I use a well-greased wad between the ball and powder, seated separately before I seat the ball. There are good reasons for doing this:
a. If somehow I've forgotten to add powder, it's easier to remove a wad than a stuck ball at the range.
b. You get a better feel for how much pressure you're applying, so you don't crush the powder and affect its burning rate.
c. It keeps the powder in the chambers while you fumble around for a ball.
d. You get a better feel for how much pressure you're applying when seating the ball on the wad. There must be NO space between the ball and wad so seat the ball firmly on the seated wad.

As for lubricant, I make my own from a very old recipe that likely dates from the 19th century. It was originally a factory lubricant for heeled bullets, such as the .22 rimfires, the .32 Short and Long Colt, .38 Short and Long Colt and .41 Colt.
Converted to modern weights, using a kitchen scale, the recipe is:

200 grams paraffin --- I use canning paraffin, sold by the one-pound block, because of its purity. Who knows what's in today's candles, especially the scented ones.

200 grams tallow --- You may use lard but I use mutton tallow, sold by Dixie Gun Works. It seems to create a slicker lubricant.

100 grams beeswax --- Sold by hobby shops. Or call your local County Extension agent and find a beekeeper in your area, it's cheaper this way. You may also find beeswax at mountain man rendezvous' or Renaissance Fairs.

Weigh the ingredients and add them to a quart Mason jar. Place the filled jar in three or four inches of boiling water, for a double-boiler effect. This is the safest way to melt greases and waxes. When all ingredients are melted, stir well with a clean stick or disposable chopstick.
Allow to cool at room temperature. Hastening cooling by placing in the refrigerator may cause the ingredients to separate.
After the jarful of lubricant has hardened, get a clean tuna or pet food can. Add about two or three Tablespoons of lubricant to the can and place it on a burner at very low heat. You don't want to cook the lubricant, just melt it.
Now, add about 100 felt wads. Stir them around until they soak up the lubricant. Remove from heat and allow to cool. Snap a plastic pet-food lid over the cool can and you also have a container to store them in and take them to the range.
When you run low on wads simply reheat the can, add more lubricant and wads and stir until they're soaked. Don't bother squeezing out the excess lubricant; the more lube the better.

The paraffin in the above recipe is crucial, in my experience. It stiffens the felt wad and helps it to scrape out fouling.

As to procuring felt ...
a. Old cowboy hats or felt vests at the thrift store. Often hard to find but sometimes you luck out.
b. Felt weather stripping for windows, sold by Frost-King of New Jersey. Tru-Value Hardware stores sell Frost-King products. READ the package to ensure it's real felt and not polyester because Frost-King makes both kinds.

I use a .45-caliber wad punch sold by Buffalo Arms of Sandpoint, Idaho. A 7/16 wad punch may work fine. I use a 7/16" wad punch to make felt wads for my .44-40 rifle cartridges. A greased, felt wad between the lead bullet and black powder in the .44-40 doesn't reduce the powder capacity much and it keeps the bore much freer of fouling.

I rarely put lubricant over the ball in my cap and ball sixguns when I use a well-greased wad lubricated as above. I live in the Utah desert, where temperatures can reach 100 F (38 C) and 5 percent humidity. In these hot, dry conditions sometimes it helps to put grease over the ball to augment the greased wad and keep fouling soft.

In my .36 and .44 revolvers, I give the cylinder pin a good lubing with Crisco or CVA Grease Patch. With the use of lubricated wads, and a well-lubed pin, I can usually shoot six or seven cylinderfuls before the action drags. Actually, that's with the Colt, the Remington and its smaller pin usually go three or four cylinderfuls.

By the way, use lead balls in your revolver. I've never found any conical bullet as accurate as a lead ball of proper size. In the .44 calibers, this means a ball of .454 or .457 inch. These are sold by Speer and Hornady.
In the .36 calibers this means a ball of .378 to .380 inch --- which are hard to find. Order .380-inch balls from Warren Muzzleloading of Arkansas, off their website at www.warrenmuzzleloading.com
I personally vouch for the quality of their .380 balls. They are extremely well made and don't have the troublesome sprue that you find with cast balls.

Also, you'll usually find your best accuracy with real Black Powder. Use FFFG grade if you can get it but if you can't, then FFG will work. Black powder is usually sold at gun shows and mountain man rendezvous', if your local gun store doesn't stock it.
"A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44."

Offline HWooldridge

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« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2004, 05:37:05 PM »
Gato,

Mutton tallow probably has some lanolin in it, which is pretty slick stuff.  My problem is never being able to find felt.  All of the commercial felt I have found recently is synthetic and I really hate to cut up old hats...

Offline whitfang

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« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2004, 05:43:45 PM »
So I've got a options with the wads;  can buy some Wonderwads and apply extra lube, or make my own wads and apply homemade lube to them.

Just to be clear on lead balls - in a .45 cal Ruger Old Army, the manual says to use .457 diameter balls.  And you're recommending .457 in a .44 cal as well?

That's fine, because if I buy a .44 I won't need to keep different sizes of lead, just the .457.


Thanks for the information.  Can't wait for the gun to arrive.   :P
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Offline whitfang

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« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2004, 06:06:08 PM »
Gatofeo;

I found and read your long post on "Proper Use of a Cap and Ball Revolver."  Very well written and informative.  Just what I needed as a neophyte.

Thanks.
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Offline Gatofeo

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« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2004, 12:27:55 PM »
Whitfang, you're quite welcome for the advice. Took me years to learn what you read in a few minutes. I'm happy to pass it along.
When I started shooting cap and ball sixguns about 1970, there wasn't much information around other than partly filling a chamber and ramming a soft lead ball down it, followed by a plug of automotive grease or
Crisco.
Today, much more has been learned. Actually, I think much of it has been rediscovered; the old-timers weren't so far off the mark in their practices and observations after all, we've learned.

I would advice against using any petroleum product in the bore or chambers of your pistol. Instead, give them a generous coating of olive, peanut or henway oil, or warm the bore and cylinder and apply plenty of Crisco or Bore Butter.

What's a henway? Ohhhhhh ... about 4 pounds ...  :wink:
(Gawd, I love doin' dat!  :twisted: )

Yes, you may use .457-inch balls in any of the .44-caliber cap and balls. It will be harder to seat the balls, owing to the large ring of lead that will be removed during seating, but it won't strain any well-made gun.
I use .457 and .454 inch balls in my Uberti-made Remington Army .44 and Pietta-made Colt Army .44 all the time. Either size works fine in these guns, but in the Ruger you should use .457 inch balls, per the manufacturer's recommendation.
But if a buddy shows up with a new .44 and wants to try a few shots, there's absolutely no harm in using .457 balls in non-Ruger cap and ball guns.
The black powder manuals usually suggest balls of .451 inch but I've found this size to be too small in my .44s.
There are two main advantages to using a slightly larger ball in cap and ball sixguns:
a. When a larger ball is seated, it creates a wider driving band for the rifling to grip. Obturation (the sealing of the projectile within the rifling, which keeps blow-by of gases to a minimum) is bettered.
This may be demonstrated by seating a .457 or .460-inch ball in a chamber, then removing the nipple and carefully tapping the ball back out with a short length of brass rod or wooden dowel (steel may scratch the sides of the chambers).
Put the removed ball aside.
Now --- using the same chamber --- seat a .451 ball then tap it out too.
Notice the difference in the width of the shaved area? That's all your rifling has to grip. Not much of an area, is it, compared to a modern bullet?
b. The wider driving band also helps the ball cling to the sides of the chamber better. This lessens the chance of the ball in an unfired chamber moving from recoil or prolonged loading (as in carrying in a holster for months, but I suspect few people do that anymore).

When I finish this box of .457 balls, I probably won't use them anymore. I recently bought a Lee mould that casts two .454 inch balls at a time. Since I have about 200 pounds of dead-soft lead I shouldn't have to buy balls for many years.

Hwooldridge: Yes, I suspect that mutton tallow has lanolin in it. I've been told this but can't find a scientific, reputable source to confirm it. The use of mutton tallow definitely makes a slight difference in the feel of the lubricant, though. It makes a noticeably improved lubricant.
"A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44."

Offline grlmpl

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« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2004, 02:36:25 PM »
I use bore butter on my 1860 cylindar and 30 grs powder 455 circlefly wad 451 ball.  circlefly wads cost about $7 per 1000.

Offline The Shrink

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« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2004, 01:29:27 AM »
Hey Gatofeo

How do you get the oil out of a henway???

Wayne
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Offline filmokentucky

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« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2004, 07:58:00 AM »
Lubing the arbor is critical. I lightly lube the arbor with a tallow-beeswax lubricant and then put a dollop of lube in the arbor hole of the cylinder. When I slide the cylinder onto the arbor, this lube is distributed the length of the arbor. This lube resists heat fairly well, and the lube keeps fouling from working between the arbor and the cylinder. The same lube over the balls keeps fouling soft. A quick wipe of the barrel/cylinder area when reloading keeps the gun from stiffening up. This does seem to work best with my Colts. My Remington needs more attention--I guess the smaller diameter arbor plays a role here. But, the Remington cykinder is so easy to dismount that it ultimately isn't that much of a disadvantage.
  Has anyone found a reference to wads being used in the original guns-in
period? I've never been able to find such a mention, only that a form of cartridge was available.
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Offline HWooldridge

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« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2004, 08:48:47 AM »
Nothing about wads but I have read an old reference that described loading sequence for a C&B and there is no mention of wad or lube over the ball.  The process was to pour the powder, seat the ball and cap the piece.  I would bet money that troopers loading in battle did the same or used the paper cartridges.  The less time spent reloading, the better chance for survival.  Use of wads and grease may have come along later to prevent possible chain fires.

Offline Flint

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« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2004, 06:44:32 PM »
There was lube in the paper cartridges.  A soldier loading loose powder and ball, which many did because they found the round ball more effective than the conical, would forego the lube for time sake, and clean the gun next time he got to water.
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Offline Gatofeo

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« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2004, 09:31:30 AM »
The late gun writer Elmer Keith wrote that the paper cartridges, once assembled, had their bullet dipped in melted beeswax before the paper cartridgdes were wrapped in their little boxes.
Don't know about this, as I've never had the opportunity to closely examine the contents of such a box. Perhaps some vestiges of tallow or beeswax would still remain n the wooden blocks or cardboard of the box.

Elmer Keith may also be the earliest reference to the use of greased wads in a cap and ball sixgun.
In 1912, when he was 14, he began carrying a Colt 1851 Navy. He said that the Civil War veterans around Helena, Montana (where he grew up) showed him how to properly load the old gun.
He doesn't specifically say that they told him to use a greased felt wad, however. Perhaps it was something he picked up later.
I've never heard of any soldiers or pioneers using a greased felt wad. I suspect it may date to the 1870s or 1880s, when wads or cookies of lubricant of various kinds were loaded in the ammunition of long-range cartridge guns (Sharps, Remington, Winchester, etc.).
I suspect that someone figured if it was good in a rifle, it might work in the cap and balls too. But all this is entirely supposition on my part; I don't have a shred of evidence, just a hunch.
The journals of soldiers, pioneers and market hunters are generally aggravatingly short on firearms information. They describe the vastness, the Indians, the hardships and their work --- but generally little about their guns except in the most general terms.
What a treasure it would be if every pioneer, soldier, buffalo hunter and market hunter had bothered to list the serial number of his rifle and pistols in his journal. Imagine how the values of some guns would explode if they could be positively linked to such owners.
Alas, all we're left with today is the classic regret, "If this old gun could talk ..."

Which is why I often urge people to write a little note about themselves and the gun they own, and stick it under the buttplate or beneath the grips. Could be some mighty interesting reading 100 years from now!
"A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44."

Offline willysjeep134

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« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2004, 07:42:47 PM »
This may sound crazy, so stop me if it is, but I have used cotton balls before as wads in my revolver. I take a 50/50 mix of parafin and lard and warm it 'til it melts. Then I soak a bunch of cotton balls in it, and then cut the cotton balls into equal quarter sections. These sections are then balled up and loaded between the ball and powder in my revolver. It isn't like a fitted wad, but the greased cotton does seem to squish out under the ball and seal the chamber well. I am convinced that it is safe. I haven't shot it much that way yet, but it does seem to work. It is also a lot less messy than bore butter over the balls.
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