Author Topic: Reloading weirdness (Read 1333 times)

ricciardelli · « **on:** June 29, 2004, 03:57:21 AM »

Reloaders are a bunch of weird people!

Now, I am a reloader, but I don't consider myself weird (maybe a little arrogant, but not weird).

I have seen reloaders get all upset because there is a variation of 0.00005" in their runout, case length or overall cartridge length.

Personally, I have found that all the work required to "true-up" cases or ammo beyond +/- 0.005" is a law of diminishing return and a practice in self-abuse.

I recently had a look at the "factory specifications (as well as SAAMI specifications)" for the .243 Winchester case. Has anyone else looked at them?

If not, here they are...(all measurements are in inches ... sorry to those of you who use that gawd-awful metric system):

Case head diameter - 0.4630 to 0.4730
Case head thickness - 0.0290 to 0.0390
Bevel on case head - 35 degrees to 55 degrees
Extractor groove diameter - 0.3890 to 0.4090
Extractor groove length - 0.0550 to 0.0650
Bevel on case body to extractor groove - 30 degrees to 36 degrees
Case body diameter at bevel/body junction - 0.4623 to 0.4703
Case body diameter at body/shoulder junction - 0.4473 to 0.4553
Length of case from head to shoulder - 1.5598
Diameter of body/shoulder junction - 0.4540
Angle of shoulder - 20 degrees
Length of case from head to datum line - 1.6270 to 1.6340
Diameter of case at datum line - 0.4000
Length of case from head to should/neck junction - 1.8043
Diameter of shoulder/neck junction - 0.2680 to 0.2760
Overall length of case - 2.0250 to 2.0450
Diameter of neck at terminal end - 0.2680 to 0.2760
Overall cartridge length - 2.540 to 2.710
Bullet diameter - 0.2400 to 0.2430

Now, the average schmoo will grab a Remchesteruger Model 7077MKII-1/2 off a mart store rack and also grab a couple of boxes of "the cheapest ammo you have" at the same time.

He will put his $29 scope on his rifle, go to the range, and fire a couple of shots to sight the sucker in.

Then he will fire a 3-shot group at 100-yards, and if it is less than 6" he will consider it "good enough for hunting". However, more often than not, if he is a decent shooter, his group will be around 2".

Then he goes hunting...meanwhile, us reloaders are spending hours, if not years, attempting to find the "perfect load" for our custom-made, pillar-bedded, free-floated, air-gaged rifle with that $1,000 scope on it!

Sure it is satisfying to finally have a firearm that does 10-shot, 300-yard groups of less than 0.25"...but damnit, his deer jerky tastes just as good as mine...

Wlscott · « **Reply #1 on:** June 29, 2004, 04:30:12 AM »

Quote

Reloaders are a bunch of weird people!

HEY!! I resemble that remark

I don't like to think of it as eccentricity Steve. I like to think that it is a desire to rise above and excel that draws all of us weirdos to the world of reloading :grin:

huntsman · « **Reply #2 on:** June 29, 2004, 12:26:59 PM »

I have also had the displeasure of trying to help this schmoo of yours trail a marginally wounded deer because of poor shot placement and/or poor bullet performance. Really is a sick feeling, especially if the deer was a wallhanger. There's a happy medium in there somewhere. I like to think my handloading adds a small measure of certainty to the hunting equation, and maybe a tad longer practical range, but I'm under no illusions about perfection.

Handloading for me is about getting ammo to perform in ways that factory ammo can't (like reduced velocity/recoil, or lighter/heavier grain or better construction of bullet). It is certainly not an exercise in pointless precision or 1/2 inch group sizes at 100 yards. I leave that stuff for the serious target shooters. A 1.5" group will still hit a 6-inch diameter vital zone at 300 yards, which is much farther than I have ever had reason to shoot at game in my neck of the woods.

The specs are really there only to keep me in the safe zone of my reloading. I try to be reasonably consistent, but as the specs show, 0.01 inch is a very small increment, so if I am off by one or two of these on trim or OAL, I don't sweat it unless I am over or under the max/min or the ammo won't shoot those 1.5" groups.

tony212 · « **Reply #3 on:** June 29, 2004, 02:06:03 PM »

:grin: Just to add a another view......reloading is kinda like the guy who ties his own flies or makes his own arrows from raw shafts....there is a satisfaction you get from knowing you made everything yourself. Especially when it works right for you in the field. I started reloading shotgun shells when I was 16 to save some money. Now at 49 I certainly can afford to buy them but I still reload. I have expanded my reloading to rifles and handguns as well. I can't explain it but like I said the satisifaction in knowing you did it yourself is a great feeling. Who knows.....maybe someday I'll even build my own shotgun... :lol:
Tony212

Rojelio · « **Reply #4 on:** June 29, 2004, 06:55:34 PM »

I reload because it allows me to shoot a lot more than if I had to buy all my ammo and theoretically, the more you shoot, the better you get. I have been reloading for about 20 years so my initial investment has been satisfied many times over. Oh, and I love it, too. It is very satisfying. Rojelio.

sgtt · « **Reply #5 on:** June 29, 2004, 08:05:59 PM »

A lot of denial, rationalizing, and justification going on here. We need to face reality and admit it is a disease. Somewhere there is a 12 step program for us......................

warf73 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 30, 2004, 12:57:39 AM »

Sgtt

I won't go can’t make me go :-D :-D

ricciardelli

It's very enjoyable to reload.

For me to justify the 1/2" groups that I get from hours of reloading and shooting reloading and shooting.
Is all my groups are off the bags, I have never shot a deer off of sand bags.
Every deer I have shot is off hand.
So my 1/2" bag groups might be 1.5" off hand.
To me that’s were I justify the small groups.
The HUMAN factor plays a bigger role in the field.
I have seen deer missed at 100yards because of the human factor.
Can't blame the scope, rifle, or load can only blame you.

BruceP · « **Reply #7 on:** June 30, 2004, 10:00:37 AM »

sgtt

I don't have a problem. I can quit any time I want to. :lol:

I don't really worry about runout and 1/4" groups and such.
Well not too much.

BruceP

Bullseye · « **Reply #8 on:** June 30, 2004, 02:42:45 PM »

ricciadelli,

You are starting to sound like my wife.

I agree though. That is why I reload the way I do. I seat to the book COL, I do not deburr primer holes, uniform primer pockets or trim until my case length reaches the maximum in the book. Of the calibers I shoot my 22 Hornet, both 223's, 25-05 will all shoot MOA or less at 100 yards. My other calibers such as 45-70, 375 Win and others will do less than 2" at 100 yards. All these guns might shoot better if I did the finer points of reloading, but they now shoot good enough for me by just varying the powder weights to find an accurate load.

Guess all I am trying to say is that you have a valid point and to show that some dang good groups can be achieved without doing the tedious things. I am a hunter and like to target shoot and reload because I could not afford to shoot as much as I do if I did not reload.

That is my opinion, but I have no problem and even admire the people that strive for the ultimate accuracy, but it is just not my main goal.

ricciardelli · « **Reply #9 on:** June 30, 2004, 06:11:47 PM »

Take out the garbage, mow the lawn, clean the rain gutters and get you feet off the coffee table!!

stork · « **Reply #10 on:** July 01, 2004, 05:42:40 AM »

I just started to reload, and after loading my 1st time I was hooked. I'm only 15, so I got plenty of time to worry about the little things. Right now that stuff would just confuse me.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 01, 2004, 12:17:42 PM »

I am a reloader also, but I don't find myself being anal. I reload to shoot more and shoot consistent rounds. I am not shooting in any competitions, so I don't have to weigh my bullets and my cases and have strict tolerances. I am not looking to sit on a bench and put all my shots into one hole. Sub MOA or 1 inch groups is good for me and hunting.

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #12 on:** July 01, 2004, 04:09:31 PM »

Quote from: stork

I just started to reload, and after loading my 1st time I was hooked. I'm only 15, so I got plenty of time to worry about the little things. Right now that stuff would just confuse me.

That's probably the most sensible post of the thread.

ricciardelli · « **Reply #13 on:** July 02, 2004, 12:53:46 PM »

Okay, I guess it is time to clarify my original post...

How many of you looked at the tolerance specs in my original post?

What I was trying to say was that with the factories having THAT much leeway in their specifications, is it really necessary for reloaders to be concerned with 0.00005".

My opinion is, "No." +/- 0.005" is damn good, and 0.05" would be practical for the average reloader.

Bullseye · « **Reply #14 on:** July 02, 2004, 01:16:44 PM »

That is what I was saying and agreeing with you on without listing actual numbers. I do not worry about those tight tolerance. I take what my dies give me. And like I said, pretty darn good accuracy can be obtained this way just like it can with the right factory ammo. Might be a differenct story for a benchrest shooter, but not for the average shooter.

Iowegan · « **Reply #15 on:** July 02, 2004, 03:15:15 PM »

There's just something about going to the range and shooting a good group. When you reload, you take everything out of the equation except yourself. If you miss the target, you can't blame anyone else. If you hit the target, you can get your arm out of joint by patting yourself on the back.

I don't hunt anymore but I do enjoy shooting tight groups. Yes, I'm one of the anal reloaders that can't find a caliper that measures in .0001 increments. My favorite task is to take a rifle that couldn't hit a dinner plate and turn it into a sub-MOA shooter. Next to that, I like long range stuff where no one in their right mind would shoot at an animal.

Being retired helps. I used to go out and see how much ammo I could burn up in one range session. Now I can make a day out of 20 rounds. It also took a day to load those 20 rounds. Yes I neck turn, anneal, uniform flash holes, size and seat to perfection, and measure each powder charge down to the granule. Is it necessary? Hell no, but to me it's fun.

Bullseye · « **Reply #16 on:** July 05, 2004, 05:32:05 PM »

But what I am saying from my experience is that you can get sub MOA without being Anal. 1/4 MOA probably not, but how many people are capable of pulling a trigger and getting 1/4 MOA groups with the most precisionly loaded ammo possible.

Joe Kool · « **Reply #17 on:** July 07, 2004, 09:16:31 PM »

I don't spend hours on the bench trying to get 1/4" groups, I'm happy with 3/8" groups. All joking aside, todays factory ammo in the varmint calibers will proudce 1/2" groups or better in a good rifle, with a good shooter. Shooters are not handicapped, using factory ammo. I reload for economy and to get bullet to cartridge combination not available in factory loads. For varmint loads, group sizes can't get small enough. It's real satisfying to have a load that will make head shots on ground hogs at 400+ yds. For deer if you want to shoot deer at 600 yds. you need as much accuracy as possible. A deer rifle that shoots 2" groups will do the job to 300 yds. Most people here in PA. shoot their deer within a 100 yds., no need to waste time getting the gun to shoot under an inch for this kind of hunting, but I know hunters that do.

Calamity Jake · « **Reply #18 on:** July 08, 2004, 06:16:00 AM »

"I have seen reloaders get all upset because there is a variation of 0.00005" in their runout, case length or overall cartridge length."

ricciardelli, do you know how small .00005 is?-------It is 50 millionance of 1 inch :eek: Measuring tools needed to check something that close are expensive. 99.9% of us handloaders including the bench rest shooters can't measure that close with any repeatablity to make it worth even trying.

"Personally, I have found that all the work required to "true-up" cases or ammo beyond +/- 0.005" is a law of diminishing return and a practice in self-abuse. "

In some areas of the case tune up, ±.005 will be very self-abuseive, .005 over max case length in already a max pressure load COULD be abuseive to you and anyone nearby.

If you shoot any kind of rifle matches, .005 case to bullet runout could mean the difference between winning and loosing.

NO RANTS or FLAMES here, just stating some facts.

"My opinion is, "No." +/- 0.005" is damn good, and 0.05" would be practical for the average reloader"

Man I should have read your other post, now I am going to rant!!!

.05 is almost 1/16 of an inch!! So for the average reloader or anyone else for that matter, in your opinion, seating bullets .05 over max length would be ok!!--- How about .05 runout?--- They wouldn't even chamber!!
A .05 bigger flash hole!!!! :eek: :eek:
If dies would allow it, how about setting the shoulder back .05!!! OH Boy A one shot case head seperating wild cat!!!!

If your going to load ammo by those standards, then give other shooters around you a break, go find a deep hole to shoot in!!

Sorry guys, rants over and my apologys if I affended anyone.

HWooldridge · « **Reply #19 on:** July 08, 2004, 07:02:51 AM »

I read the specs in the first post. From working many years in various manufacturing environs, those tolerances are typical for the process and using those tolerances, the factories make some very good ammo. I would therefore suggest that most handloaders could duplicate factory standards and be in good shape. However, we all reload for various reasons and part of it may be somewhat psychological in nature. While there may be a lot of folks who buy factory ammo and are quite competent in their hunting or match skills, MOST handloaders are reasonably good shots and maybe it's because they care about the whole process. It goes along with the guy that makes his own arrows - he'll mess around with it until he gets the looks and groups that he wants. Be as anal as you want - when you win a match or bring home the B&C trophy, everyone else will want to know your secret...

ricciardelli · « **Reply #20 on:** July 08, 2004, 07:28:48 AM »

Calamity...

Yes, I know measurements. I also know how to spell...

"Almost"...that's a weird term for someone who is so intent on perfection...as a matter of fact it is EXACTLY 1/20th of an inch...

Rant all ya want...that's your option...

But don't even try to tell me about reloading...

:shock:

Questor · « **Reply #21 on:** July 08, 2004, 07:53:00 AM »

Here are my ramblings on tolerances....

For some of the stuff I do, .01" matters, like taper crimp on a 45ACP. I try to keep them within a couple of thousandths of 0.469" For OAL, .05" will work fine with things that I reload, but I usually get anal about matching the OAL in the reloading recipe to within a couple of thousandths. I've read that seating a 9mm bullet 0.1" deeper than reloading spec can raise pressures to dangerously high levels. I do like the notation of precision to the ten thousandths for manufacturing. A lot of the better machinery is built to handle those kinds of tolerances now, so we may as well use the notation that fits the technology that exists.

Jim M · « **Reply #22 on:** July 10, 2004, 03:18:03 PM »

I used to participate in NRA high power matches at my rifle club and enjoyed them immensely. Then some of the guys got real serious about wringing out the highest score and real anal on shooting form and took the fun out of it for me, so I quit. If you enjoy that kind of pressure go ahead but my reloading is like my shooting, I do it for enjoyment. That's why they call it a pastime instead of work!