Author Topic: 4th of July @ the Rock Pit (Read 1651 times)

sabotloader · « **on:** July 04, 2004, 05:33:10 PM »

Good morning to go to the rock pit with the TC Percussion gun. This is a rifle I built from parts...

A Green Mountiain 50 cal 1/28 twist 15/16ths 32" barrel (I did cut it back to 28") with a Thompson breech plug, mounted in a TC Hawken stock (second) from Track and with a lock and set triggers from Track O' Wolf.

Most of the legend on the target you are unable to see so here are the basics for each shot:

Load - 80 grains T7-3f loose powder
TC Mag Express or MMP Sabot
Bullets - Hornady 45 cal 300 grain XTP Mag or Hornady .458 (45-70) 300 grain hollow point.
75 yard target (Laser) off a portable bench
TC fiber optic - open sights (60 year old eyes ain't what they use to be)
6 O'clock hold

First 9 shots were 300 grain Hornady 45 cal XTP Mags with TC Mag Express sabot (new one Black probably a MMP 45x50x24 sabot). Shot #1 was from a clean and lubed barrel. 2&3 were nice #4 - the set trigger got me, dang it goes off easy, 5&6 I'm still a bit mad about #4 -- #7,8&9 I am back in the groove. Chrono speeds - hi-1893 lo 1826

The last 3 shots were with the .458 Honady HP's and an Orange MMP sabot - I do not know why they are up there there are the same weight but different sabot. I wanted to try my .458 - 300 grain Nosler partition's but I forgot them. I am convinced they will make a good Elk bullet. I just started experimenting with the .458's.

http://www.hunt101.com/img/192930.gif

lostid · « **Reply #1 on:** July 04, 2004, 06:18:22 PM »

SabotLoader; It seems you have had a happy 4th! Many returnrs to ya!

But I ask ya,,why are you posting here about laser sighted distances shooting faux bp powder , over fiber opitics,, useing two different "sabot" type "bullets" and plastic sabot/condem wad or patch poly type thing's??

I'd cut ya a little slack cause it's a T/C hawkin,,but the rest of the conversation belongs on another sight!!

A GM 1:28? Black sabots?? Orange sabots? XTP bullets??

sabotloader · « **Reply #2 on:** July 04, 2004, 06:55:53 PM »

My mistake, I guess?, I did not know that this was "traditional shooting only" I think that is what you are trying tell me, as I use to post a few over messages over here but have been away for awhile.

I guess I posted it here because Thompson calls it a Traditional Muzzleloader, I think of it as a Traditional Rifle and the hammer is on the side kinda makes it a Traditional rifle - not that you have to be a "traditionalist" to shoot it. In fact the Lyman, the Renegade and the CVA I have also clearly say "Traditional" on the boxes and the title of this forum is "TRADITIONAL Muzzle Loading Rifles & Shotguns" it does NOT say "Traditional Shooters Only" I enjoy shooting my side locks far more than I do my in-lines, probably shoot them more than 3-1, and in Idaho along with many other States we are allowed to shoot and hunt with the non-tradition tools in a Traditional Rifle.

My next question where would you suggest, now, not what you thinking, would you suggest I post this information - certainly not in the "In-Line" forum... I really don't think I am the only non-traditional "Traditional" (albeit a somewhat simular) Rifle user that views or uses this forum.

If this be a "traditionalist only" forum maybe you could get Graybeard to change the forum title to reflect that instead of being as general as it is.

I would like to hear from other "Traditional Rifle Shooters" shooting in a more modern approach, not that there is anything wrong with "Traditional" shooting, I think it could be great fun, I am just not there yet. Another thing, I thought a forum was for sharing a large base of information with others.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** July 04, 2004, 07:38:38 PM »

Sabotloader, I wouldn't worry about it, leave it up to a moderator to let ya know if you crossed the line. I personally don't have a problem with your post, your rifle is kind of a mix, but it would probably be more accepted in the inline forum. A mod will move it if they deem it necessary. Nice shootin, btw! I noticed you had a bit of a problem posting the target pic. I copy and paste the URL from the bottom of the final window at hunt101 after you are all done with the upload, then it shows up when you paste it with your post. hth, Tim

lostid · « **Reply #4 on:** July 04, 2004, 09:03:48 PM »

Sorry i stepped on your toes sabotshooter,, but a 1-28 twist T/C-GM capper shootin sabot loads and faux powder is pushin the "envelope" for me when it comes to what "trad" means. You'll never shoot that thing at a 'vous in my neck of the woods!.not like that!...three score eyes or not,,fiber optics,don't teach us nuthin bout "traditional".sorry,no way.

Sorry,,maybe you should have gotten into bp years ago,we got 80 yr old shooters amoungst us! (87 even is the oldest active shooter i know!),,,,your expriance could help,,,,,,,
best wishes to ya,,,

sabotloader · « **Reply #5 on:** July 05, 2004, 04:49:59 AM »

Lostid,
Naw! you did not step on any toes - I once did do some and still do some PRB shooting and believe me I love the period you are talking about. As an Idaho History teacher we hit that time period very hard, those people and their survival skills really amaze me. I have a pretty forward thinking principal and he even allows me to bring in these different traditional sidelocks to let the kids see them. They load them with black corn pepper, stuff a patch and round ball down, even buck and ball loads, then they put on a leather cap and shoot it. I think the part they like the best is really when I expell the whole works with a CO2 cart.

Anyway if a moderator wants to move this he certainly may. I was just reporting on a gun that i like to claim I built and the method that I choose to shoot it. Personally, I was pleased with the results - then I keep wondering could the MM done the same thing if technology had caught up with his skills - and how much more would have he improved what some desk jockey put out there?

There is a "traditional" club located in Colfax, WA - not to far from here and they have their "vous" on National Forest here in Idaho. When I worked for the Forest Service I used to stop by all the time (Fathers Day Weekend', I really enjoyed my time and my activities there but it really never grabbed me.

I am really amazed at what these or these "simulated" Traditional guns can do - I have shot centerfire all my life - but these muzzle loaders are a blast - much more challenge even pushing the envelope, where does their power end.

Anyway I really hope you have a good day and I did not mean to step on anyone toes here either, but I did think there were others that might like to hear or see what these fake traditional guns could do.

Question! could a real traditional gun if it were built with a faster twist and the products available be capable of this modern stuff?

filmokentucky · « **Reply #6 on:** July 05, 2004, 08:01:35 AM »

Sabot- Are you asking whether a traditional rifle with a fast twist barrel would shoot sabot rounds and other "modern" projectiles as well as an in-line? If so, I would say yes. The in-line's main advantages(as I see it) are
a slightly faster lock time and, in some models, a more weather proof ignition system. Take a traditional underhammer style rifle with a fast twist barrel and equivalent sights, and I doubt the most ardent in-line or
traditional rifle advocate could discern difference between it and an in-line as to lock time. The human brain just can't measure differences in nano-seconds. Accuracy is a function of the quality of the rifle and the shooter's capability--- an in-line in and of itself is no more accurate than a traditional rifle of equal quality--- and vice versa. Now if someone would
just make a graceful, elegant, traditionally styled in-line.....

crow_feather · « **Reply #7 on:** July 05, 2004, 12:43:54 PM »

sabotloader,
What worries me is your first shot, the "this is the shot that I'm going to shoot the animal with" shot. The shots hit beautiful on a dirty barrel, but it's that first shot you need to hit in the center with.

I saw that Redhawk1 was writing about how he loads for hunting when at the range over on the other site. You might want to take a look at it. I'm not suggesting that you go to the other site, except to read Redhawks pretty well written post.

And yes, traditional might mean completely traditional, but a good target is worth looking at no matter what put the holes in it. Great shooting.

I guess on the traditional post, it might be better to talk more about your rifle and less about what's coming out of it. :-)

Great shooting
C F

quickdtoo · « **Reply #8 on:** July 05, 2004, 12:58:38 PM »

Just so you don't have to go over there and get inline boogers (ala Tim Taylor) :wink: all over you, here's the quote from RH1:

Quote from: Redhawk1

What I have done, is found a load that works with a clean barrel. The way it would be if I were going hunting. Cleaned and a patch ran down the barrel with bore butter. I run a clean patch to remove bore butter prior to loading. I sight my gun in with a clean barrel with bore butter and wiped with a clean patch every shot. Time consuming, but you don't have to worry about fouling the barrel before you go hunting. I have found even if I shoot a couple shots with a fouled barrel I am off by a little. This is the way I do it for hunting. Makes life easy for me.

crow_feather · « **Reply #9 on:** July 05, 2004, 01:06:51 PM »

quickdtoo,

What a nice guy! delivery even!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #10 on:** July 05, 2004, 01:14:53 PM »

Quote from: crow-feather

quickdtoo,

What a nice guy! delivery even!

With a little touch of class, I hope....heh heh!

sabotloader · « **Reply #11 on:** July 05, 2004, 01:30:21 PM »

See! that is what really tickles me - with this gun I can shoot with an inliner and accomplish two goals 1) you do not need an in-line to shoot really well with outstanding velocity very good ranges (taking alot of guess work out of the shot) and 2) you can shoot that modern stuff if you want to - BUT I do refuse to scope a "traditional" - I want to do it with open sights - I have considered peep sights - they would certainly help during daylight but where i get in trouble with my eyes is in low light situations, that is why I have been forced to fiber.

CF, as for that first shot, remember that is out of a rifle that was stored and put away... I dry patched it before firing the first shot, but I also knew that it would not be indicative of the barrel, consequently I always go target shooting prior to hunting so I have that fouled barrel and unless I get the bore wet during hunting season I will not really clean it, I mean break it down clean, again until after hunting season. That is one of the beauties of T7 not being near as corrosive as BP. Most of the time I don't even unload it, it gets locked in a case in the toolbox in the truck. Again all of this is dependent on weather and what it has been through that particular day.

Actually I am more ticked about #4 and the hair set trigger - especially when I know it is that way... #4 just kinda ruins the hole day, or at least that target.

Than you guys

quickdtoo · « **Reply #12 on:** July 05, 2004, 01:56:30 PM »

Quote from: sabotloader

Actually I am more ticked about #4 and the hair set trigger - especially when I know it is that way... #4 just kinda ruins the hole day, or at least that target.

Than you guys

Isn't your trigger adjustable? I don't think I've ever seen a set trigger of any kind that didn't have adjustments on it, assuming it is working properly. Some, not all, set triggers can be fired unset, also. I worked on my TC triggers and the cabelas(Investarms) hawkens so the triggers would fire reasonably smooth unset. Tim

sabotloader · « **Reply #13 on:** July 05, 2004, 02:32:43 PM »

quickdtoo,
Thanks but, yes it does, and yes I have... Hunting I can only remember one time that was actually was able to or needed to, wanted to, use the set trigger - most of the time I get to the front trigger and get the job done. Target shooting I, trying to impres you all, I do use the set trigger - but I also shoot at targets quite a bit of just the front trigger my groups open up a bit a but the bull's eye is a little bigger on an Elk. When I use the Lyman I only have the one trigger and it pulls really well.

#4 is my fault all the way, knowing the trigger was set but still relaxing my finger on the trigger as I was coming onto the 10 ring.. can not blame it on anything else -darn, and the other thing I was firing over my chrono and that always makes me nervous - if I was firing over yourn I wouldn't be near as nervous......

Gosh! isn't all this feed back and exchange of information fun and informing - now you know why I posted...

Thanks - Mike

AndyHass · « **Reply #14 on:** July 06, 2004, 03:46:12 AM »

It shouldn't surprise you that you can shoot as well as an inline out of a sidelock. The placement of the firing mechanism is merely cosmetic. Unless you are comparing an inline cap with a flintlock on the side, the difference in lock time is insignificant.
Nice shooting out of a homemade gun. I always wanted to make up my own gun with set triggers but never got around to it yet.

crow_feather · « **Reply #15 on:** July 06, 2004, 04:31:43 AM »

Yes, I deleted part of your post.

Peace has come to GBO and while there might be some who are quicker on the keyboard than others, they are at least man enough to apologize when they make a mistake or accidently offend someone else.

What is wrong, is to take advantage of a mistake and continue a battle that has ended in a peace. I can post on the in-line forum and in-line people can post here as long as we both stick somewhere in the area of what the forum is about. Isn't it time that we are friendly neighbors with a difference in opinion?

If you must continue in demeaning this forum and GBO, please do it with a pm or e-mail.

C F

AndyHass · « **Reply #16 on:** July 07, 2004, 06:03:13 AM »

Recommending a site where his type of shooting setup will be more readily accepted is not demeaning. I have asked you before where such a gun setup should be discussed, and your answer seemed to be just "not here". Indeed, the very first reply was basically "not here". There was no rational reason to delete that part.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #17 on:** July 07, 2004, 08:10:51 AM »

Quote

"AndyHass"]Recommending a site where his type of shooting setup will be more readily accepted is not demeaning. I have asked you before where such a gun setup should be discussed, and your answer seemed to be just "not here". Indeed, the very first reply was basically "not here". There was no rational reason to delete that part.

AndyHass, I think the inline area my be a better place for this. The traditional guys like to discuss the traditional way of ML. On the inline side we get into it all. COME ON OVER

crow_feather · « **Reply #18 on:** July 07, 2004, 08:41:46 AM »

AndyHass,
If that was the only thing you wrote, it wouldn't have been deleted! Please, lets try this peace between forums idea. We have good people on both sides and they have so much information to share.

Your posts are always welcome here Andy, if they somewhat fit in the forum. Someone might say something about the content, but that is only one person and not the position of everyone.

Thks,

C F

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #19 on:** July 07, 2004, 08:54:53 AM »

Quote from: crow-feather

AndyHass,
If that was the only thing you wrote, it wouldn't have been deleted! Please, lets try this peace between forums idea. We have good people on both sides and they have so much information to share.

Your posts are always welcome here Andy, if they somewhat fit in the forum. Someone might say something about the content, but that is only one person and not the position of everyone.

Thks,

C F

I don't know what was deleted so I cannot comment on that. I was looking more at non-Traditional ML posts.

sabotloader · « **Reply #20 on:** July 07, 2004, 04:09:41 PM »

I respectfully disagree, it is not an inline and should not be posted with or in the inline section. The titles of the forum indicate what type of fire arm they are not what type of shooting is being practiced. The rifle I put together is considered by the people that make it a "Replica Traditional Muzzle Loader" - now it may not fit a "traditionalists" description of a Traditional Muzzleloader - but again I submit the title of the forum is "TRADITIONAL Muzzle Loading Rifles & Shotguns". I do not read that to say only "period" loaded guns can be discussed here. How about the opposite, if I were to load and shoot PRB's or conicals out of the Remington In-line, scoped with a 3x9 firefly (which I have done) - since that is now loaded traditionally it should be posted over here? Doesn't make sense it is an in-line should go in the in-line section. The gun I am shooting is somewhat a replica of a "Traditional" gun and the infromation should be posted here.

Now, if King, Crowfeather, Redhawk 1, and GB all got together and changed the names of the forums to something like "Modern Shooting Muzzle Loaders" and "Traditional Period Shooting Muzzleloaders" then I would agree with you - my post may have belonged in the "Modern" section.

I think a good example has just occurred a first time poster shooting for the first time - shooting a GPR posted in the "Traditional" area but if it turns out that he is shooting T7 and sabots you are going to invite him to go somewhere else - but he posted following the title of the forum as I did.
And you never know he may shoot both traditionally and in the modern relm with 1/32 barrel - but if you move him to in-lines he will never see the information about shooting traditionally.

Why does there need to be this big backstabbing, under cutting hatetred towards each each other? If you "period" folks really need a separate place to post, why not create one for "period" only - let CF moderate that and and now that King is back let him do the other. (I personally would not like it that way cause as I have said when I read I learn)

I like shooting sidehammers, underhammers, anything that has a hammer, and I like telling people that I do like em. I also want to hear from others shooting hammers, whether it be modern or period. In my early days of posting on GB that was the way it was here and it worked.

I always hear about this guy called "Carl the Impaler" he supposedly has just a "Traditional Period" shooting forum that he boots people off of - I have never bothered to find out more because I know I would not be welcome there - Sooo if this is the way you want to run this forum - if that is the decision I can repsect that and follow the rules - although I would much prefer it be an open "TRADITIONAL Muzzle Loading Rifles & Shotgun" site. (more people ='s more information)+

Harmony amoung people and their guns and their styles of shooting I wonder what that would be like?

Hope all this does not cause a lot of unrest - but I am proud to be a muzzle loader shooter - both in-line and traditional, and both modern and on occasion "a period shooter."

Finally, then I'll get off the soap box, it has been only on a very rare occasion over here that I have gotten a real disrespectful reply or suggestion, even with the handle "sabotloader." And no matter where you go there is always going to be a % of those.

CF if you publish your rules for posting over here I will follow them.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #21 on:** July 07, 2004, 04:20:08 PM »

You bring up a good point SL, I have a TC Hawken with a .50 cal green mountain ball barrel that I remortised for an L&R flintlock and I shoot 302gr Buffalo Bullet saboted bullets in, and pretty well, mind you for a slow twist barrel. Where does that critter belong? Not trying to cause trouble, just curious about what goes where....thanks

Ramrod · « **Reply #22 on:** July 07, 2004, 04:33:07 PM »

One, two, three, four.........ten!

Quote

I think a good example has just occurred a first time poster shooting for the first time - shooting a GPR posted in the "Traditional" area but if it turns out that he is shooting T7 and sabots you are going to invite him to go somewhere else - but he posted following the title of the forum as I did.

No, he should stay and have some of us point out the error of his ways. Just you wait till rollingb gets back! Lasers? Sabots? Jacketed bullets? ACK! It's enough to make a real traditional muzzleloader puke.

sabotloader · « **Reply #23 on:** July 07, 2004, 05:22:55 PM »

Believe it or not Ramrod I agree with you - maybe not the term error of his way but a possible an alternative to what he is doing, but if he were to choose (after all that is what I tell my students one of the great things about America is "the ability to make choices") to shoot both or one or the other should he be banished? just because he chose to use his 1/32 barrel with sabots and t7. I know this is not the right term to use with you but what point does segragation serve? We are all muzzle loading shooters, in fact someday I might need to ask you question to help me, why would I want to banish you to someplace where I couldn't get the timely information when I needed it. If I read one of your posts and I have read several your posts, other than the ones where you are defending (which you really don't need to) your shooting style and your suggestions the other guy/gal should take a hike, you do put out good information, information that I have already used parts of or, while I may not use it at that moment - I do make a note of it for future reference.

Is rollingb the contolling voice in this forum? Is only he who matters? or is it US, the people that look to this forum for all kinds of information and even once in awhile think we might have something to share or contribute. Is there only room for one style of voice on this site?...

KING · « **Reply #24 on:** July 07, 2004, 05:40:01 PM »

:shock: GENTLEMEN>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>each to your corners!!!!!!!!!!!!! Actually I had attempted to post to this about four days ago but now I am on a Dial-Up system and it did not go through. I have read all of the responces and conter responses and frankly..............this is the end of them. I will not lock out anyone,and vertually never do,nor will I do this on this item. Was I impressed with the shooting,for sure,I always love to see a good target,and that was great by any standards. Did some feathers get ruffled,by all means,some did. I think that the information would have generated additional interest on the inline site if for nothing else but to show that an experianced shooter,with the right combination has the ability to duplicate thier shooting with a rifle other than an inline,using thier type of projectiles and powder preferances. Here,we are more interested in the rb and real BP. Some of us do not cross the line even with our powders,and shoot exclusively the round ball for a projectile. Some will only shoot conicals,and I think that if you had not mentioned the saboted projos it would have been maybe recieved a little better than it was. The information was interesting, but the greater interest would be,again in the inline section,even though a replica side lock was used with the faster twist. I also get jumped on to a degree as I am 54 yrs old and use peep sites on a lot of my rifles,from the BPCR,to some of my rb rifles. I have not degraded to the extant of putting them on my .62 smoothbore and really dont plan on it. I also have a GIBBS target rifle with the above set up,and it shoots a 450 grn projo and I know that when I post the shooting information I will get a little good natured ribbing about it ,and will expect it. I,and others are hardly interested in making a finite title to this forum,but will keep it as it is with the 99.9 percent of those keeping thier interest in this relm. I kind of am reminded of stopping people for speeding in thie vehicles......as I am a retired LEO. Dont speed,dont get a citation,dont post on a gray area,and no one gets upset. Waaaaaaayyyyyyyy to much nit picking in ref to this. Again,lets keep our post to as close to being Traditional as possible.........no, we are not going to define that word, but I will define speeding as going faster than the posted limit. Yup,got the right vehicle,but the items stufffed in it could use changing a little. The last is directly applicable to the former. I thank you for you interest and imput but se have hashed it enough..............thank you gentleman....................stay safe..............King :roll:

sabotloader · « **Reply #25 on:** July 07, 2004, 06:09:27 PM »

Thank you KING, I think I am receiving your drift and I will remove myself from this forum. And you have my permission to delete this whole thread as crossing the line.... with absolutely no hard feelings, when I am able to do some 'traditional shooting" I will return

Thank you for your time

filmokentucky · « **Reply #26 on:** July 07, 2004, 06:54:15 PM »

Sabot- Hope you'll be back real soon. Hi King. I've always thought peep sights were traditional--their origins are lost in the mists of time, but
early crossbows had 'em and so did match locks. Even optical sights were
used on percussion rifles.
I've been thinking about a traditional target rifle for a while now. At first I thought about a Whitworth or something along that line, but now I'm leaning towards a Brockway or Billinghurst style. There was a group of rifle builders just up the road in Vermont that built some very accurate side hammer and underhammer rifles in the mid to late nineteenth century. And these guys used peep sights on a regular basis. Ned Robert's
book " The Muzzle Loading Caplock Rifle " has quite a lot of information on them. Naturally, I'll only burn real BP in it.

Ramrod · « **Reply #27 on:** July 08, 2004, 03:20:09 AM »

sabotloader, I certainly don't believe in banishing anyone. It is a simple fact of life that when someone's methods and opinions go against the majority, they should be prepared to take a little flack. Some people are a little too thin-skinned, I guess, and take all of this message board stuff a little too seriously. It is just fun and games after all.
I for one am not a strict roundball traditionalist, I include Civil War guns in my interest. And like many of the posters here, I try to load them and shoot them like the originals. The history is just as important as the shooting for many of us.
And King, I forgot, welcome back!

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #28 on:** July 08, 2004, 08:12:24 AM »

Quote from: Ramrod

sabotloader, I certainly don't believe in banishing anyone. It is a simple fact of life that when someone's methods and opinions go against the majority, they should be prepared to take a little flack. Some people are a little too thin-skinned, I guess, and take all of this message board stuff a little too seriously. It is just fun and games after all.
I for one am not a strict roundball traditionalist, I include Civil War guns in my interest. And like many of the posters here, I try to load them and shoot them like the originals. The history is just as important as the shooting for many of us.
And King, I forgot, welcome back!

I have to agree with you. I think any more people are taking very small things and taking them to heart. Seems like if you say something that rubs the person the wrong way, they want to pack up and leave. These boards are for our enjoyment and there will be times people do not see eye to eye. But that is no reason to want to leave. Just get a little thicker skin and hang in there.

sabotloader · « **Reply #29 on:** July 08, 2004, 09:48:23 AM »

Ramrod and Redhawk1, thank you both for your comments... but as I read KING's last writing he would prefer that a person shooting modern utensils in a traditional gun not bring it to this site. If that be the rules, I can live with that, but at this point that is all I am shooting in my sidelocks. When i get back to shooting the in-lines I'll pop up on the In Line sight

In fact, I just got back from the rock pit this morning ran the Renegade out to put it through some hoops, I can not tell you how well that old piece of hardware that i bought off e-bay shoots. The last thing I did was put a paper plate out at 140+ yards and took 3 shoots at it; wasn't much of a group but all three were in the plate. And again I would like to tell you more about the loads but they are not traditional - but the Elk I am going to shoot with it this fall/winter won't know.

There is nothing wrong with some ribbing once in awhile, been know to do it myself once in awhile, heck everybody needs it once in awhile. I just don't want to be asked to leave or post somewhere else becuase I had made a choice to shoot modern and not traditional. Those of you that shoot traditional I am certainly going to throw my hands up in the air and say "my God, you are doing it wrong and you don't know what you are missing." I would like a place I could share my experiances with you all and you can share yours, while there is a difference it is not the end of the world, heck the politicians are going to do that.

thanks - mike