Poll

Which would you recommend

Total Members Voted: 15

Voting closed: July 06, 2004, 04:25:01 PM

Author Topic: Kahr vs. Kel-Tec... Please help me choose.  (Read 1601 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline dovetailthis

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Kahr vs. Kel-Tec... Please help me choose.
« on: July 06, 2004, 04:22:42 PM »
Currently I use a .32 Kel-Tec for my daily carry.... I use it with the available clip and clip it inside my waste band in my a$$ crack. When I am sporting a large wad of cash to take to the bank or when I feel like toting around a chunk of metal I holster up my SS taurus 85 with an inside the pant holster on my left side for a cross draw with the right hand or a twisted left hand draw. It is easier to get at than the kel-tek and has the bonus of two hand draw (I can only draw right handed with the .32)
 
I love the weight and profile of the .32 I ALWAYS have it handy no matter what I wear. I like the .38s for when I feel like I need the added power, but I want a weapon that has more power and the potential to be carried most all of the time..... making the other two all but obsolete.  
 
I have narrowed the playing field down to a few machines. The Kahr, pm9 and the KP40 and then the Kel-Tec 9mm
 
I will list what I find to be the +'s and -'s of each and will listen to all responses.   Please don't tell me to buy a 45... I'm just not going to carry around that weight and size pistole all of the time. I know how lots of ppl feel about 9's and 38's and 380's and 40's. But I don't care about your opinion of why a 45 or a 357 is the only choice. I will however consider debate about 9mm +P vs. 40
 
 
 
Kahr PM9 polymer mini
carried with seven shots option of 8 w/ extension
same weight as kel-tec
smallest size of three guns
can use +P ammo
top of spending range
 
Kahr KP40 polymer full size
carried with seven shots
heaviest of three guns
largest dimensions
+P ammo may be too much recoil? (opinions???)
about same price as PM9
 
Kel-Tec P11 polymer mini
carried with 10 shots option of 11 w/ extension
will also accept standard S&W large capacity clips
same weight as PM9
slightly larger than PM9
Not sure of ability to use +P ??????
Minimum in my quality expectations.
$200 cheaper than Kahr  
(with those savings I could buy this and upgrade my .32 to a .380)
 
 
 
Any input that is offered will be appreciated.  I have eliminated the Kahr mini polymer .40 because I imagine that it would have too much recoil and it is only capable of holding six shots with out the extension and if I use the extension I might as well buy the full size. I have not been able to find any articles about the mini 40 but if anyone know of any I'd love to read them.  
 
Thanks,
Aaron

Offline dovetailthis

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Kahr vs. Kel-Tec... Please help me choose.
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2004, 06:54:41 PM »
Thanks Chris.

I find that the Kahr fits my hand real well. I'm 5'5" so naturally I have a pretty small hand. One of the things I like about the Kahr mag is the single stack. It makes for a nice thin grip which I like.

I haven't handled the Kel-Tek in a while and don't remeamber how I like it when I did handle it two years ago. Do you know if that Kel-Tek can handle +P shells??

Aaron

Offline PA-Joe

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 980
Kahr vs. Kel-Tec... Please help me choose.
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2004, 03:12:40 AM »
You could go with a North American Arms Guardian in the new 32 NAA. 380 necked down to 32.

Offline dovetailthis

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Kahr vs. Kel-Tec... Please help me choose.
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2004, 03:35:26 AM »
That is a nice gun and I may up my .32 to that , but I am still looking for the power of a 9mm +P round or a .40

Thanks,
Aaron

Offline reelhook

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 157
PM9 vs Keltec
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2004, 03:51:38 PM »
This is an easy answer-PM9-I wouldn't want to chance my life on the Keltec. The PM9 will handle +P+

Offline Savage

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4397
Kahr vs. Kel-Tec... Please help me choose.
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2004, 04:06:43 PM »
I don't have any experience with Kahrs. I hear they are quality pistols. I do have two P-11s. For half the price of the Kahr you get a great carry package. Mine have been flawless. If you need a single stack in the same price range, you might want to look at the Makarov.
Savage
An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last,

Offline dovetailthis

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Kahr vs. Kel-Tec... Please help me choose.
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2004, 09:01:19 PM »
Savage,

Does your p-11 handle +P ammo? And does the Markov single stack come in a polomer frame? This is why I didn't buy a Kahr 2.5 years ago... It was comfortable but too heavy. And you my want to cast your vote in the poll to have your voice counted. Thanks!

Reelhook,
Why would you choose the 9mm over the 40? You said it was an easy answer but I am struggling with this question in my mind. The size of the nine makes it more "carry friendly" , and the +P hits like a normal 40. So this makes it a good choice I think. But what points help make your decision so easy?

Thanks for the input,
Aaron

Offline Savage

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4397
Kahr vs. Kel-Tec... Please help me choose.
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2004, 02:04:06 AM »
Dovetailthis,
The owner's manual says +p ammo is ok, but not for continuous use. I doubt if anyone would ever shoot enough +p thru one to do any damage.
Remember the P-40 was the same gun dimensionally, which necessitated a much thinner barrel and chamber area. I'd say shoot all the +p you can afford. At 20ozs fully loaded the +p recoil is a bit sharp for a lot of range work anyway. I bought my first P-11 in Nov 98 used. I have to date,about 3500 rounds thru it, about 300 of which were +p+ Black Talons.
The rest was assorted factory and my 124gr lead reloads. Function has been  100% with all of it. My second P-11 also bought used, only has about 500rds total thru it. It has never failed to function as well. It is currently my wife's car gun. The P-11, and I'm sure the Kahr, both meet the primary requirements for a carry pistol: Reliable, Safe, Reasonable accuracy and power in a fairly compact package.  The P-11 just does it for a couple hundred less.
The Maks are all steel and a bit heavy for my taste, but none the less a fine pistol. You can't go wrong with any of the three.
Savage
An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last,

Offline chris s

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 74
Kahr vs. Kel-Tec... Please help me choose.
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2004, 05:14:19 AM »
Go with the PM9, its a the most compact powerful pistol thats still usable.
The kel-tec is ok but you get what you pay for. the pm9 quality is better.
I use gold-dot 124+p in mine (the nypd carry load). A few friend who have seecamps shot, my pm9 and said they are going to buy pm9s

Offline strider72

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 117
Kahr vs. Kel-Tec... Please help me choose.
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2004, 01:58:56 PM »
Either one is a good choice, although you might want to look at a Glock 26 too. All of them will digest +P if you don't overdo it with the Kel-Tec. Have you thought about a Kel-tec P3AT in .380? With the shorter barrels in 9mm or .40 you are not gaining much over a .380 with more recoil.

Offline greenjeans

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 583
Kahr vs. Kel-Tec... Please help me choose.
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2004, 11:06:36 AM »
My Kel-Tech is in the vehicle with me at all times. This is my second P-11 and both have been 100% reliable. Can pay a lot more and get prettier, but extremely pleased with mine.
Romans 8:38,39

Offline 44 Man

  • Trade Count: (28)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2419
  • Gender: Male
Kahr vs. Kel-Tec... Please help me choose.
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2004, 11:47:38 AM »
My wife has the PM9 and I have a Pm9 Covert.  Love both of them.  Had a p32 kel tec and liked it except it didn't shoot any where near the sights.  I know, it's not that kind of gun BUT I still require any gun I own to be able to pop a bunny in the head at 15 yards, and that wouldn't do it.  Both Kahr's are exceptionally accurate.  The Covert fits into my front pocket just like the P32 did (just a little heavier) and still packs +P whallop.  I excluded the K series Kahrs because of the weight.  If I'm going to carry that heavy a gun, I'll put on a .45.  Same for a .40, had a mini Glock, too much buck and roar.  Back to a .45 again if I'm going to go that big.  I've found the Kahr's to be a great compromise.  Big enough, small enough.  44 Man
You are never too old to have a happy childhood!

Offline Ron T.

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 646
Kahr vs. Kel-Tec... Please help me choose.
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2004, 06:26:47 PM »
Dovertail…

I carry a Kel-Tec P3AT in .380 ACP loaded with 7 rounds of +P hollow points that have 221 ft/lbs of muzzle energy in a “package” almost exactly the SAME SIZE as the Kel-Tec P-32  you carry, and from which the P3AT was designed.

I had heard some “scary stories” about the lack of reliability of a good many small pistols including the P3AT and decided to make my own tests of the small, but relatively powerful semi-automatic pistol.

For EVERY individual test over the three times I went to the range with the Kel-Tec P3AT, I “worked” the slide to put a live round in the chamber from the magazine, then removed the magazine and added another round to the top of the then full magazine to insure the magazine’s full spring tension was put on the top round so that if it was EVER going to jam, EACH shot would be a “maximum test”.

The first time I went to the range, the Kel-Tec jammed three times (failed to chamber a round which got “stuck” half way into the chamber) and “stove-piped” twice in 125 rounds.  However, I must say that I was using aluminum cased Blazer .380 ammo… and my Kel-Tec didn’t seem to like the Blazer ammo very much.

The 2nd time out, using PMC brass-cases ammo, it “stove-piped” twice (failed to fully eject and dropped the empty, fired case down onto the top of the loaded round in the top of the magazine thus jamming the slide “open”) in 100 rounds, mostly at the beginning of shooting the 100 rounds.  Again, I’d fire only one round, then remove and refill the magazine to full capacity after each shot to insure maximum spring pressure against the round in the top of the magazine.

The 3rd time out, the little pistol functioned flawlessly while shooting 140 rounds, the last 35 rounds of which were first, 25 rounds of aluminum-cased Blazer ammo and, last, 10 rounds of +P hollow-points.  I also noted that the slide on the P3AT was considerably smoother and easier operating after shooting the first 225 rounds on the two previous trips to the range.

Drawing from my experience, I’d suggest that a minimum of 250 rounds be put through any new Kel-Tec P3AT as “break-in” rounds.  After that, an additional 100 rounds with BRASS cartridge cases should be fired through the pistol without ANY malfunctions to insure it’s proper operation during any possible emergency.

On page 3 of the P3AT’s instruction manual, it sez that +P rounds CAN be used on a LIMITED basis.

Since this small, light & handy little pistol is my daily carry gun, I don’t expect to be shooting more than 50-100 rounds a year through the pistol since I have determined it is going to function properly under any conditions.

Many of my friends have asked me why I choose to carry the Kel-Tec P3AT when I have over a dozen more powerful pistols from which to choose.  I can only point out that it’s very small size and extremely light weight plus it’s relatively powerful caliber make it the best of all compromises in a “carry” handgun.

Naturally, I’d MUCH prefer to have the fire-power of one of my Colt 1911A1’s in .45 ACP together with the cartridge capacity of the 18 round after-market magazine in my Ruger P-89PD in 9x19 (9mm Luger), the pure brute force of my .44 magnum or the deep penetration of my .357 magnum.  However, since I often have to “carry” the pistol all day, the lack of heavy weight or large size makes the P3AT my BEST “compromise” choice.

Incidentally, the Kel-Tech P3AT has a life-time warranty for the original owner’s use if needed.  Now how can you beat that?  You might consider it for replacement of your P-32.


Strength & Honor…

Ron T
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."  - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Swat Dude

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 22
Re: PM9 vs Keltec
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2004, 08:53:18 PM »
Quote from: reelhook
This is an easy answer-PM9-I wouldn't want to chance my life on the Keltec. The PM9 will handle +P+


I own both, a PM9 and a Kel-tec P3AT, and I bet my life on my little Kel-tec everyday.

Offline dovetailthis

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7
I bought a new piece.
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2004, 05:32:37 PM »
I went to a gun show and purchased something I had no intention of buying. Taurus Millennium PT-111 Limited Edition. It is a blued polymer with applied wood grips. I had someone at the show offer me a good price on my Kel-Tec p32. So I took his money and my garage sale money and purchased this Taurus on impulse. I couldn't find a single pm9 at the whole show there was a guy with a pm40 but I think that is a little much power for such a small package. This taurus was more in my price range anyway but I think I will look for a pm9 to replace it one day. I will keep an eye out for a good buy on it so I don't loose my but on trading around.

Thanks for all the advise everyone.

Offline reelhook

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 157
why a PM9
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2004, 03:01:48 PM »
Quote from: dovetailthis
Savage, There is a lot of very good 9MM ammo in the market today. I would stay between 100 and 127 grain bullets and nothing heavier. Good 9 allows follow upshots to be guicker and to point of aim

Does your p-11 handle +P ammo? And does the Markov single stack come in a polomer frame? This is why I didn't buy a Kahr 2.5 years ago... It was comfortable but too heavy. And you my want to cast your vote in the poll to have your voice counted. Thanks!

Reelhook,
Why would you choose the 9mm over the 40? You said it was an easy answer but I am struggling with this question in my mind. The size of the nine makes it more "carry friendly" , and the +P hits like a normal 40. So this makes it a good choice I think. But what points help make your decision so easy?

Thanks for the input,
Aaron

Offline Savage

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4397
Kahr vs. Kel-Tec... Please help me choose.
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2004, 06:53:55 AM »
dovetailthis,
You're gonna miss your P-32. Don't have any first hand experience with Taurus autos, but the PT-111 looks like it might have been inspired by the P-11. Anyway it's about the same size and weight I would guess. For me that size gun does not lend it's self to deep concealment or pocket carry like the P-32/P-3AT.  I don't think any one gun covers all the bases for a CCW gun. I think three is about the minimum, small, (P-32/P3AT) medium, (P-11/PT-111/P-9) and a larger gun for higher threat levels and heavier clothing. Lots of good choices in the large frame guns, just pick your action type and caliber preference. Yep, I see another P-32 or perhaps a P-3AT in your future!
Savage
An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last,

Offline stolivar

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 132
keltec
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2004, 03:14:44 PM »
I love my pt111, but I am leaning towards the new p145 mileniem pro in 45 cal. not much bigger and a lot better gun
 
 
steve

Offline Savage

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4397
Kahr vs. Kel-Tec... Please help me choose.
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2004, 11:48:00 PM »
stovilar,
If you get the Taurus PT145 , let us know how it works out. The Milenium models are supposed to have the frame cracking problems resolved. If you want a compact 45, look at the Glock 36 as well. Good hunting!
Savage
An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last,

Offline Ron T.

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 646
Kahr vs. Kel-Tec... Please help me choose.
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2004, 12:11:55 AM »
There seems to be a good many folks who look on the .380 ACP with disdain.  Yet, the 9x18, 9x19 and all the other 9mm's seem to be accepted as "ok".

But I wonder how much "disdain" they'd have if the .380 was named the "9x17"... 'cause the cartridge case on the .380 ACP measures 17mm according to my ruler.

Somethin' to think about...


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."  - Thomas Jefferson

Offline RollTide

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 457
Kahr vs. Kel-Tec... Please help me choose.
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2004, 05:49:32 AM »
I use really small guns most of the time.  The only polymer gun I have bought so far is the P-11.  I loved it, but traded it straight up for a 4X4 Scout.  I may get another P-11 though.  I currently carry a NAA 32acp most of the time.  I also have an AMT Backup in 40 S&W (which I can also switch to 357sig and I also have a 9mm top half that I can put on the same gun.)  In the all stainless AMT (almost identical in size to the MK-40), the 40 S&W is surprisingly manageable.  Very comparable to my full size stainless Kahr  K-9 9mm.  I would not own a 40S&W in the very small polymer package due to durability issues and recoil issues.  My AMT is a little heavy for all day carry, but I do carry it when I feel I need it.  I also have a compact 45, but the 40 and the 357sig really outshine the 45 in short barrels and generally come in much smaller packages (except the AMT Backup in 45acp.)

From what I hear, the PM9 and the P-11 perform about the same.  Of the choices you present, I would get the P-11 because it is much less expensive and equal in all other respects to the polymer Kahrs or even Glocks for that matter.  I also like the fact that one can also use the magazines for the S&W 59's and the Marlin 9mm camp carbines in the little P-11.  That makes the little P-11 potentially part of a very versatile set of hardware.

Roll Tide

Offline les hemby

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 287
Kahr vs. Kel-Tec... Please help me choose.
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2004, 03:41:47 AM »
I just bought the Kel-Tec 9mm used and love it. I have only shot 100rds through it with no jams. The one thing i wasnt really expecting was the accuracy :shock: I would of never expected how accurate it really is. I want to send it back to the factory as i am told they will lighten the trigger and i would like night sights ( for no reason just because). It is about the same size but lighter than my wifes colt detective special, with 10rds of 9mm. I will probably next week buy the 380. The 380 and 32 are so close in size i want the 380. To be honest i wanted the NAA Guardian but after shooting the Kel-Tec there is no way i would pay the difference. I got the 9mm used for 150 out the door. This is the best cheap gun purchase i have ever made :-D  :-D and wouldnt part with it

Offline stolivar

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 132
pt145
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2004, 06:41:13 AM »
I just got mine in the other day. love the trigger and the way it feels. BUT this is the second taurus I have had that was bad from the getgo. It will not go into full battery. you have to press the slide with your thumb and it will lock in. I think the spring is bad. It does not completely expand. I can just touch the spring and it will fall off the barrel assembly. Hope it fixes it when it comes back from the factory. I love my pt111 after it came back from getting the cracked slide back. It is just a shame that taurus can't have them right the first time. I made the dealer send it back. He was not to happy with that Idea. I told him that that was the third gun out of 4 that had to be returned to the factory from the start.... He was going to pay for the shipping back this time....
 
 
steve

Offline Bikenut

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 155
Kahr vs. Kel-Tec... Please help me choose.
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2004, 06:30:11 PM »
Just a couple of things.....  I owned 2 Kel-Tec P11 9mm's... actually still sorta own one that is on legal loan to my son. Both required 100 rounds to break in the gun and both became totally reliable thereafter with Hydra-Shok ammo. I was very pleased with both guns and trusted my life to them daily with no qualms. My son now trusts his, and his family's, lives to the P11 and I'm confident it will serve them well.

Then I got hit with a case of "trade up itis" when I saw a Glock 26.... now I have 2 of those and carry a Glock everywhere everyday all day long. In spite of it's only slightly larger than the KEL-TEC P11 size it still disappears into a pocket or conceals very well under a shirt in an IWB holster.

I also have a KEL-TEC P32 that I rarely carry... only when mode of dress prohibits concealing a Glock because I consider the .32 (incidently also the .380) to be a marginal self defense caliber. I also think the 9mm Luger is the bottom rung of effective self defense calibers but it is the largest caliber I can shoot repeatedly accurately. Follow up shots with larger calibers for me just aren't accurate or quick, or both, due to the recoil of the larger rounds.

As for Taurus offerings....... I saw a lady in a CCW class with a brand new Taurus 9mm that jammed on each and every shot... That was enough to convince me to stay away from Taurus models and Taurus knock offs... Not to mention I personally dislike the extra complexity of internal keyed locks in a firearm........ but then, I recently decided I dislike external safetys too since I believe they instill a false confidence in the person carrying the firearm... as in: "Well, the safety is on so I don't have to worry or exercise caution because it won't fire until I take the safety off." Hmmmmmmmm..... mechanical safetys fail and the only real "safe" safety (I believe anyway) is the "safety" between my ears. Knowing the gun is "live" at all times keeps me treating it as a "live" gun.... at all times. This has led me to treat all guns, all the time, as "live" guns since I don't consider a gun to be safe just because the mechanical safety is "on". Also, a personal defense gun needs to be in a ready to fire condition... in a real world bad situation there isn't much time to be fumbling around getting the mechanical safety off............

As for the Kahr.... never owned one but the KEL-TEC P11 is a whole lot cheaper and does what it is supposed to do.

Please understand that everything I've just posted is based on my own personal experience and are my personal opinions.
The longer I live, the older I get.
Neither has anything to do with wisdom.