Be Aware of Others at the Range!

[mikemayberry]

While at the outdoor range yesterday I noticed what appeared to be two related families arrive and set up shop a dozen lanes down the way.  At least two younger children were with the group.

The mom and the dad and the other adult commenced shooting long guns and pistols and after 15 minutes we hear this .22 go of and WHANG, the round hits the pole supporting the roof.  The ricochet apparent whacked the 5-6 year old girl in the hand and drew significant blood.

Everyone around rushed to help and the best we can conclude is they either let the kid shoot unsupervised or the kid picked up the gun (cheap .22 revolver) when they were not watching.  They packed up and left (presumeably for the ER, as did several other shooters who could not believe what they had just been exposed to).

Tooooooo close for comfort!  And a great lesson and reminder to watch others around you at the range.  Also, if you have a child with you ( as I will often do as mine grow) to keep constant control.  I never would have dreamed that this might happen but will now be on high vigil whenever my own kids go with me.

Thanks for listening to my report and I hope to raise your awareness of others at the range.

Knowing it was only a minor wound helps but I also have to think of the negative reports (shooting forms at ER) and publicity about guns, and the lifelong negative memories the kids will have about firearms.

Mike

[New Hampshire]

Yup, there is too many scary reports from the range.  Here is a couple more scary moments:

http://www.rugerforum.com/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000201.html

Brian M.

[Mikey]

From my personal perspective there is far less safety than should be on most ranges, whether they be at private clubs or not.  It doesn't matter if it is unsupervised children or unsupervised yahoos - they shouldn't be allowed unsupervised.  I think I would have called the local police and reported the incident - who knows what kind of lawsuit happy idjits they might have been.

At my club they have just ruled against rapid fire shooting - that means any IDPA studd or any sort of personal cqc training, and that burns my butt.  I was out at that range going through a few cqc drills and after about a hundred rounds or so saw two vehicles going 'gang-busters' for my location.  Out pops an older fella from one and a younger man from the other.  The older one was all over me for rapid fire shooting, complaining about vandalism, uncontrollable rapid fire, holes in the trees above the berms, liability, etc.  I kept my cool and told him to check my targets, which he did, but it didn't stop his sputtering.  Finally I told him to either shut up or put his ear plugs on as I had more work to do.  His last comment was 'well, you might be able to put them all into the target but that doesn't happen with everybody so we're gonna pass some new rules'.

Well, they did.  So now I guess we're back to the lowest common denominator - any time one irresponsible person screws up we all get penalized.  I don't have any problem with range supervision so long as it is range supervision and regulation compliance, not a limitation set by the perception of the lowest common denominator - that is, if I can shoot and hit faster than he can count it should not count as improper shooting.  Just my 2 cents worth.  Mikey.

[Questor]

Mikey:

Your range has no value except maybe to people sighting in their deer rifles. What's the point of being a pistolero if you can't do rapid fire drills?  Bullseye, IDPA, IPSC, Cowboy action and personal protection training are the major applications for pistol shooting in my area. These all require sustained fire.

The liability thing makes sense, and I suppose that's what they're worried about.

Some years ago there was a remarkable case of a boy who was shot in the head and killed while he sat in the air gun building of his gun club.  The people who designed the range shockingly built the air gun building so that it could actually be seen downrange from inside the action pistol shooting range.  A forensic analysis concluded two things:

1) This was a very bad design. Supporting evidence for this claim was the corpses of the young man, and the siding of the airgun building which was pockmarked with bullet holes.

2) Someone in an action shooting match had accidentally fired a second round before his pistol had come down from recoil.  

In this case, I don't think the shooter was at fault because this kind of a problem is likely to occur once in a while. The problem is that there was not adequate distance to provide a safe firing range.  

In cases like yours where the range is acknowledging a defect in the range design-- either insufficent distance beyond the berm, or an insufficently high berm or hill-- then the solution is not to rely on the restraint of shooters. Instead, it is probably best to build an overhead barrier of railroad ties or other lumber just downrange of the firing line that can catch bullets that are fired above horizontal. I have seen these and it doesn't seem like it would be outrageously expensive to implement.

Another possibility is to build a 25 yard pistol range that's made for the purpose. Our range just built such a place specifically for action shooting. It has very high berms, and is narrow. It inclines downward.  It's still possible to let a round go over the berms, but it's going to be unlikely.

A third possiblity is to erect 4x4 posts on the berm and then put old car tires over the posts. This effectively makes the berms about six feet higher.

As for safety, I must admit to having been a yahoo on a couple of occasions. Once I accidentally discharged my 45. Fortunately the gun was pointed safely downrange at the time.  Another time I went downrange without checking the line. I didn't realize that someone had come in and was about to shoot. Fortunately nobody was hurt in either instance, but it just goes to show that even somebody pretty concientious and practiced in safety can make potentially serious mistakes.

On the topic of range officers, some are good and others are just too high strung and have poor people skills.  At a club that shall remain nameless-- mine-- there is considerable attention paid to rifle range saftey, but the club is principally a trap club and trap shooters are permitted to consume alcohol at trap shoots. This occurs and I believe it is just a matter of time before somebody makes an alcohol-related error.  Summer trap shoots are basically tailgate parties with barbecues, beer, and shotguns.

[Questor]

By the way, the incident in the original post is absolutely horrifying. I cannot imagine my reaction to the sight of a child shot in this manner.  Just the thought of it is very disturbing.

[Mikey]

Questor - thank you for your ideas.  I have some research to complete before I make a presentation to the Board of Directors on these issues and I very much appreciate your advice.

At this point, I am beginning to think some of the range damage is due to intentional vandalism, or simple stupidity on many parts.  

Good thing I have a forensic background, or at least enough practical experience to be able to substantiate my presentation to the club membership.  However, there are some rock hard heads there and little attitudinal flexibility.  

Thanks again.  Mikey.

[Questor]

On second thought, there's really no way to design a range to solve all of the potential problems, and enforcement of rules is really necessary, and so is the design of ranges that are built for particular purposes.  For example, a rifle range with a backstop at 300 yards is like having no backstop at all if it's used for short range pistol shooting. In that case, the short, high-bermed, deep action pistol range makes more sense for pistol shooting. That seems to be the way really good ranges do it. I was at one in Wyoming that had a rifle range for shooting out to 300 yards, and two pistol ranges of different design for the various kinds of action shooting.

[PA-Joe]

You made an assumption that it was a kid. I have seen many an adult shot thru the top of the range roof. This accident could have been a ricochet from an adult with no kid involvement at all.

[Paul S]

I'm very lucky that I live close to the Andy Dalton shooting range ran by the MO conservation dept in SW MO. I have never seen a saver or better built range. I feel like a lot of places could learn a lot from them.When they call a cease fire, everyone must step from their booth and place a chain across it and turn your flag to green. I always feel very safe their. My 12 year old son just got done with a 6 day camp there where he got to do archery, air guns, skeet, .22s and a lot more. Great place.
Paul Shuler :-)
http://www.conservation.state.mo.us/areas/ranges/a_dalton

[dukkillr]

Missouri's Department of Conserveration does an excellent job with almost everything they do.  I wish the people of Kansas would vote to fund their department like our neighbor to the East.

[Chris]

Whew!  Hope the incident in OK City that mikemayberry told us about, doesn't get to the NY or LA Times...they'd have a field day!

On a firing range there can be NO TOLERANCE for poor judgement/gun handling...juniors or seniors.  The cost are too high.  Even seasoned shooters will have a mental lapse at some point in time...a friendly reminder/warning should be welcomed.

Don't know about you guys, but when I once saw the business end of .22 leveled in my direction...it looked like I was staring down the end of a howitzer!

Be Safe Guys!  ...Chris  

[Gun Runner]

Some years ago at the local range where I used to shoot.(untill the big money boys took it over) I was sighting in a .223.  The buzzer to clear the range was on a post in front of me and a bit left. Just as I started to squeeze the trigger my scope blurred. I raised up to see a (portly) gal walk up to press the buzzer as she wanted to go down range and check her target.  The range master was sitting at the bar in the club house. I just unloaded my rifle picked up and went home. After I cooled down a little I called the range and talked to the range master who was still sitting at the bar. His comment was dont worry nobody got hurt. I lost it. A letter to the NRA, as this range was affilliated with them caused a lot of DOO-DOO in the fan.

Gun Runner

[michbob]

What stuns me is the above-mentioned trap range that allows alcohol to be consumed on the line! :eek:

The range I belong to has big signs all over warning of bad things that will happen if your caught with booze on the line.  And I like it like that.

Michbob

[Questor]

Michbob:

Not on the line, but within sight of it.

[Robert357]

Considering how many ranges are getting shut down and how many lawyers are out there who would love to shut a gun range down, I can believe any range would allow such risks as are described.

I know that at the gun club I belong to we have NRA certified rangemasters and we do everything in our power to make sure our club doesn't get shut down.

All ranges have berms and "shutters" so that the risk of a stray bullet zooming out on an unknown path is significantly reduced from the rifle and pistol ranges.

Range masters watch shooters to make sure that each shot is aimed and all shots stay on the target paper.  (again, we want shots on target to reduce the pointial of a bullet flying off the range.

No alcohol is allowed anywhere on the sit (not even dinners or BBQ's) and an intoxicated shootter will not be allowed to shoot.  

Considering how easy it would be to loose insurance for the range, we need to be on our toes at all times.  It is explained to all members that it is their club and we are all responsible for range safety.  If we see something that the rangemaster doesn't see we need to step forward.

That has caused some grief in some areas by self appointed "extra cautious types.  For example some members have told other members that a double shot gun with the barrel open and the shotgun carried empty over the shoulder is "not safe." as the barrel could point at someone.  This has resulted in the President of the group definning that the should carry of an opened double barrel shotgun is "safe."

With the exception of a few zealots, I favor a strict safety rules at the local range

[Bikenut]

I also have seen some very strange behavior on the range..... I think we all have, and if not, sooner or later we will.

Safety rules are good things. But quite frankly, all the rules in the world aren't worth spit if a shooter doesn't pay attention to what they are doing. And therein lies the whole thing in my opinion....... it isn't the rules, it is the shooter. Some people are constantly aware of their guns, almost sort of second nature. Others aren't. I think part of that is experience since people who shoot a lot, or routinely carry concealed, have guns on their minds nearly all the time. And just being aware of your guns also kicks in being aware of being safe with them.

The down side are those people who are new to guns.... or don't shoot very often. Maybe once or twice a year just before going hunting to sight in the rifle. Or a few times a year just to see if their home defense pistol might be full of spiders and dust. And now I'm going to step on a toe or two. I think if behooves those of us who spend a lot of time shooting to gently guide those who don't shoot often. Especially those new to guns. Freaking out when someone makes a stupid move is understandable.... I do that too because it scares the hell out of me.... yet that is the perfect opportunity to gently offer guidance. Jumping up and down and cussing the person out for screwing up will only cause hard feelings and not make a safe shooter out of the uninformed or careless......

However, the one's who are just plain arseholes really should be booted off the range......... permanently!

I personally prefer an informal range without a structured shooting routine and without an actual person in full charge. I don't mind having people with loaded but holstered guns around me since odds are they carry concealed anyway and you can bet that one is loaded....... mine is. As long as people behave in a safe manner I don't see a problem. This system, or lack of one, works quite well at the range I frequent since regular shooters take the time to work with and guide those who make silly mistakes. We also take to task those who are just plain being a jerk.

I'm sure there are ranges that just can't be operated on an informal basis and a structured shooting regimin with full time and fully in charge range officer is needed.... perhaps due to the volume of shooters. I won't be going to one of those because shooting is supposed to be fun and not a tactical drill.

[Gatofeo]

Off the range, the ones that scare me are the youngsters up to 35 or so and their Ruger Mini 14s, SKSs, AR15s, AKs and so on.
I suspect they rarely go to the range because their antics wouldn't be tolerated there. Instead, they come out here to the remote Utah desert and tear up signs, fence posts, shoot all kinds of wildlife including small birds and never consider their background.
When I was in Idaho, I bought some 2X4s and plywood and built a couple of target holders at the 50 and 100 yard line. Well, it only took a couple of weeks before some jackass with a 7.62 X 39 thought it would be fun to chop off the 2X4 legs of the target stands with rapid fire.
So I rebuilt them. Along came another jackass in a few weeks, who blew the legs apart with 00 buck. I know, I found a couple of pellets in the wood and 12 gauge empties labeled 00 Buck.
Today, when I see someone with a semi-auto rifle, I am leery of them. And I own a Ruger Mini-14 myself. But I've seen too many ignorant youngsters just blamming away at bottles, bricks and cans who walk away and leave someone else to clean up the mess.
A couple of years ago, in the desert, I came across two guys in their 40s, each with AR-15s, shooting at a couple of car batteries they'd hauled out. These clowns were dressed all in camo, and even had a pistol belt with a pistol and bayonet attached. Each weighed nearly 300 pounds.
They probably fancied themselves some local militia. Heck, in a real emergency, they couldn't have run 100 yards without collapsing!
Call me a gun bigot if you must, but I cringe when I see some youngster show up with an SKS, AK, AR15 or Mini-14 because I know, sure as hell, there will be more holes in road signs, dead wildife and a mess to clean.
I no longer put target frames out for everyone to use, I built my own portable one.
Not long ago, at the local gravel pit, a guy asked me if I'd leave my portable target frame out for the weekend, so he and others could use it. I told him no, that by the time I came out for it Sunday the support legs would be chopped off, or it would be stolen.
He wasn't too happy with my response, because he had hoped he and his buddies from Salt Lake City could use it while they camped there.
I came back the following weekend and sure enough, their campsight was a mess and the nearby gravel pit had shattered beer bottles everywhere.
And there was a ton of steel-cased, Russian-made 5.56 cases all around the place.
To hell with being Mr. Nice Shooter anymore. I've become a grumpy desert cat for good reason. These city youngsters and their semi-autos are worse than the spray paint vandals when it comes to vandalism.
I guess I get the dregs that are turned away at the city ranges.

[Dusty Miller]

My grandpa used to say, "It really doesen't take all kinds to make a world, but we've gott'm, just the same".

[Bikenut]

Being a relatively new shooter (for the second time...out of it for a few decades)...I have a question of order at the range.  

I was taught that muzzles stay pointed down range no matter what...even if unloaded and clips, cylinders, or bolts out or open.  Nearly had a family "tiff" recently when one of the kids (age 20) had his new .17 semi-auto pistol laying on the station table cross-wise at rest and while handling it i.e. down my way.  Had the usual "I don't care if it IS unloaded and the clip IS out...the muzzle stays pointed down range until it's in the holster"...etc. etc.

I was always "instructed"  that all firearms are treated as loaded.

Am I correct in my assumptions (previous training) or am I just being unnecessarily "anal" about this?

Well Sir.... with your attitude, knowledge, and understanding of safe gun handling.... you are welcome to shoot with me any day! I also believe that all guns are to be treated as loaded....... even the one in my hand that I just unloaded and know is unloaded is still loaded. That isn't "anal", it is simply the only safe way to consider and handle a gun.

I occasionally mention to shooters at the range to please keep the gun pointed down range even when they set it on the bench. They know it is unloaded, I suspect it is unloaded.........but people get shot by "unloaded" guns every year! and I don't want to be one of them.

Maybe this is just coincidence but I suspect not.......... but it seems the people who carelessly set their guns down without concern where it is pointed are mostly young in years or young in the sport of shooting. I suspect this cavalier gun handling attitude isn't because they are stupid or really careless people but it is simply that they haven't had the benefit of good training.

Perhaps I am about to indulge in preaching to the choir with the following.......

Maybe I'm just an "old fart" just remembering yesteryear.... but it used to be a father, uncle, grandfather, mother, aunt, etc., was the one who introduced a kid to guns and the proper handling thereof... and nearly everyone had a gun of some kind around the house. Kids grew up around guns and a gun was a normal thing... kind of like shovels.... tools to be used properly. Seems like now a days there isn't anyone doing any teaching on a long term basis. Sure there are concealed carry classes and hunter safety courses but how many people actually go to them? And while those classes are very good things they aren't long term like having a mentor's training spread over a kid's formative years. Safe gun handling is mostly mental... an awareness, an understanding, a perspective, even a way of life, that doesn't just happen overnight but has to be taught... and that teaching has to be refreshed from time to time since even seasoned shooters occasionally inadvertently point guns in less than ideal directions.

Right about here is where gun control minded people would jump at the chance to mandate training before anyone can purchase a gun. On the surface that seems like a good thing but it opens a can of worms because it won't be used to train people but will be used to control gun ownership by making the training hard or too expensive... or both. So what can be done? I don't know the answer to that other than taking the plunge and talking to a careless gun handler risking a less than pleasant confrontation with someone you know or a total stranger. But that possibly less than pleasant confrontation is still far better than someone getting shot by an "unloaded" gun.

Win50? If you think you are being "anal"....... just this Wednesday evening a fellow, and experienced, trap shooter was busy talking as we walked onto the range to shoot and swung the muzzle of his broken open shotgun right past my face and it scared me. It also pissed me off. I knew the gun was empty and broken open so it couldn't go off.... but all I saw at that moment was a 12ga. muzzle going past my face. So I guess I'm also "anal" about where guns are pointed.

[Robert357]

....... just this Wednesday evening a fellow, and experienced, trap shooter was busy talking as we walked onto the range to shoot and swung the muzzle of his broken open shotgun right past my face and it scared me. It also pissed me off. I knew the gun was empty and broken open so it couldn't go off.... but all I saw at that moment was a 12ga. muzzle going past my face. So I guess I'm also "anal" about where guns are pointed.

At the gun range/club I belong to there has been a controvesy over whether an over/under shotgun broken open can be carried over the shoulder with the muzzle forward in a way that allows the muzzle to point toward others.  I must say that when I feel uncomfortable with someone elses gun handling, I usually talk to a range master or if it is a flagrant safety violation talk to the individual, followed by the range master.  

I can understand why you would be upset by having the muzzle of a shotgun pushed near your face by surprise.  I would not want a clumsy oaf swinging a broom near my face, let alone a shotgun.  If I see it coming, grabbing or using a hand to deflect a muzzle up and away from you will often both shock the ofender and get the point across very fast.  In this case you didn't see it coming and I can understand why you were upset.

I will give you a pet peeve of mine that happened recently to me on a pistol range.  At the cease fire, I emptied my Single Action Ruger and pulled the pin and cylinder out of it, but did not have the barrel pointing totally down range.  We were about ready to go down range to change targets on one person objected to my revolver being at about a 45 degree angle rather than pointed fully down range.  I want to emphasize that it was pointed down range and not toward any other firing station, it was just not pointed perpendicular to the line of firing stations.   Had it been pointing at another firing station, I would have understood the concern.

I found that odd, since we were going to be walking "down range" to where the muzzles were pointed to change our targets and since with the cylinder out and no one allowed to be near the firing line the revolver was in an unloaded and safe condition.  In reality the guy wanted the muzzel pointed more toward where we were headed than where it was.

This is the kind of lack of common sense that is starting to creep into the sport.  I have no problem with ranges requiring bolts to be opened.  I have no problems with ranges requiring that magazines be removed during cease fires.  I also feel that during active shooting on a range, even by someone walking up to the line, that they need to controll the muzzle direction of their uncased firearm.  All are important rules.

[Bikenut]

Robert357....... I think you have hit upon something. Rules are made to address a situation. And that is generally a good thing. However, rules can't encompass every situation totally and that "common sense" part is supposed to kick in.

Common sense says to keep firearms (loaded, unloaded, even taken apart as you mentioned) pointed in a safe direction. Ok... usually at the range that means downrange but the reality is guns should be pointed in the direction where no damage will occur if a gun does discharge. I think people forget that simple common sense fact that supercedes the general "downrange" rule. Having said that I, and many others, routinely walk downrange with a multitude of supposedly empty firearms pointed at us simply because they are pointed downrange where the rule says is a "safe" direction. I guess I'm trying to say that just because the rule says it is a "safe" direction doesn't mean it always is. Just as the fellow with the empty and broken down shotgun knowing his gun is safe and then becoming careless where it is pointed because the gun is in an unloaded and safe condition. A bad habit to get into since someday that shotgun won't be unloaded and broken down but he will still be careless and point it at someone..... just like "downrange" won't be a safe direction just because a rule says it is. It is all too easy for someone to drop the magazine and forget to clear the chamber, set the gun down on the bench pointing downrange (the safe direction?) and put everyone changing targets in danger.

Just because it is a "rule" doesn't mean following it to the letter is always the safe thing to do. Some thinking is required.

Now that is my thinking... which, if added to $1.00 will buy a cuppa coffee.

[Bikenut]

A simple multiple station rifle rack (rifles pointed up) with additional downward angled shelf for pistols permanently attached to each bench or shooting station would do the job. All firearms must be in the rack/on the shelf before people go down range. Putting old carpeting on the racks/shelfs would protect the firearm's finish.

Feel free to use this idea.... send all royaltys to me via email.

 :grin: