Author Topic: ACKLEY IMPROVED- thinking mans magnums-Rifleshooter article. (Read 1587 times)

ratherbefishin · « **on:** July 14, 2004, 03:41:35 AM »

I was re reading an old article in the January/February2003 issue of RIFLESHOOTER last night- on the advantages of the Akley improved versions of existing cartridges,the 35 whelen being one of them, plus the 7x57, 257 Roberts and 375.Very interesting- they cases were fireformed from existing cases, and improved capacity by about 6%, plus were more efficient.They improved the velocity without significantly increasing pressure- and gave about 95% of the velocity with about 23%less powder that similar magnums- and that means much more pleasant to shoot.I think the article was ''thinking man's magnums''
Wouldn't that make a great choice for HandiRifles?

Wlscott · « **Reply #1 on:** July 14, 2004, 03:54:45 AM »

Do a search on this forum and you'll find a ton of discussions on this subject.

I've thought about "improving" my .223 Ultra. But I keep going back to the fact that I've already got a really accurate gun and I don't want to mess with it.

Deadeye47 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 14, 2004, 05:00:16 AM »

I'm on a list for a 30-30 Ai conversion right now.....there has to be others....you can just about find a AI conversion for any cartridge.

ratherbefishin · « **Reply #3 on:** July 14, 2004, 05:30:16 PM »

since a 35 whelen is on my wish list-may as well go the improved version.If those ballistic tables are accurate, it sure makes sense- almost magnum performance without the recoil.It says it is efficient on ranges under 200 yards- and I know that is about my limit in the field.I wouldn;t want to take a shot farther- that's 600 feet- a long way even with a rest.It should be a great moose- black bear gun!

Sourdough · « **Reply #4 on:** July 15, 2004, 07:42:55 PM »

Admittadly, I haven't shot my .35 Whelen Handi enough to know it's limitations. But I have shot another one of my .35 Whelens enough to know I can hit a 6" paper plate consistantly at 250 yards. Yes all the hits at that range are in the lower edge area of the circle, but they are still within the 6" circle. That's the limit I use, the size of the heart of a Moose. At 300 yards I'm not even hitting the target frame, don't know where it goes. Since all my .35s have peep sites the front site covers too much of the target past 250 yards anyway. I only carry .35s when I'm hunting brush or heavy woods, where the ranges are usually short. Have been seriously considering having the AI put on my bolt action .35, and possiably my .35 Handi as well.

Fred M · « **Reply #5 on:** July 19, 2004, 07:37:51 AM »

Sourdough.
By all means have your bolt gun converted to the 35 Whelan AI. AI cases like tight confinement and operate best with no more than 1-2Thou head space. Cases can then be neck sized only, providing there is no stretch in the action. If you stay with your loads about 58kpsi the cases will spring back and allow only the most minimal brass flow, almost non measurable.

providing there is no stretch in the action. this of course eliminates the Handi. I find in my 25-06 3-4 thou case lengthening due to stretch but mostly from latch movement. I have been working on eliminating the latch movement and making some progress.

To test my theory I am making a yoke to hold the barrel down tight to the action to prevent any up lift. This will tell exactly what kind of accuracy can be achieved with a tight lock up. Then go from there.

I therefore cant recommend the AI conversion on the Handi unless you are happy with 2"+ groups at 100 yards. Otherwise you best leave it as is. Fred M.

alicraftjet · « **Reply #6 on:** April 24, 2009, 08:00:00 PM »

The ackley improved cartridges are way more than just a velocity improvement think about the 243 win a great cartridge to start with but hard on brass. And i dont mean too down rate one bit but they have to be trimmed excessivly ackleys dont grow half as much which means longer life;
that brass has to come from somewhere. most of the time it means incipient head seperation also 243 are known to wash out barrels quickly some as soon as a couple thousand rounds read the facts.Ackleys have 40 degree shoulders which dont allow hot powder kernals to be thrown into the leade of the the rifling as much as the standard 28 degree shoulders at thousands of feet per second because of a bridging effect. All this while temperatures are thousands of degrees which erodes the leade quickly i have shot ackley improved cartridges for years and in every case running an ackley reamer into a standard chamber has improved the cartridge dramaticly. If the cartridge is a tack driver in a standard chamber it will continue to be in an Ackley version the only change will be that it will do so a lot longer. Only my observation from 40 yrs of shooting and competion Parker Ackley was way beond his time and my favorite rifle is still a 257 Ackley improved which has taken many elk, moose, and deer all one shot each. this one rifle has more than 4000 rounds through it and each time to the range produces more consistantly 3/4 " groups than any hunting rifle i ever fired" anyone worried about chambering an existing rifle to an Ackley chamber will only improve it if the smith does it properly. this gun is 22yrs old and going strong go ahead and do yourself a favour

Swampman · « **Reply #7 on:** April 25, 2009, 01:29:22 AM »

None of the AI cartridges do anything the standard version won't do. Why ruin a perfectly good rifle?

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #8 on:** April 25, 2009, 02:55:36 AM »

Swampman you wake up on the wrong side of the bed?? Maybe you could enlighten us as to how it will ruin the "perfectly good rifle" ? Kurt

Swampman · « **Reply #9 on:** April 25, 2009, 03:03:15 AM »

It will reduce it's value to about nothing.

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #10 on:** April 25, 2009, 03:15:20 AM »

You are probly right with as hard as it is to drive the price up on these $300 Handi Rifles an Ackley Improvement could ruin that. Kurt

Swampman · « **Reply #11 on:** April 25, 2009, 03:21:30 AM »

The AIs may have had a place years ago. They really don't now.

dorothy daily · « **Reply #12 on:** April 25, 2009, 03:23:07 AM »

how? if a person does not reload simply shoot factory fodder, there really is not any difference that i can tell in my 22-250 ai or my regular 22-250 as far as being accurate and the ai is faster. kind of like go you want a car that can do 0-60 in under six seconds or a soccer mom minivan.( always did like to go fast quick) the 250 savage and 257 roberts are the ones that benefit the most from ackley reaming. it simply sounds like you are not an ai fan. enjoy the weekend

Swampman · « **Reply #13 on:** April 25, 2009, 03:25:27 AM »

The difference between 6.0 & 6.1 seconds isn't worth the money spent & lost.

Singleshotsam · « **Reply #14 on:** April 25, 2009, 05:05:59 AM »

That depends on how much money is invested in the race and how fast the other guys equipment is...

quickdtoo · « **Reply #15 on:** April 25, 2009, 05:20:45 AM »

Quote from: dorothy daily on April 25, 2009, 03:23:07 AM

how? if a person does not reload simply shoot factory fodder, there really is not any difference that i can tell in my 22-250 ai or my regular 22-250 as far as being accurate and the ai is faster.

Not a valid point when applied to a Handi rechamber from the parent round on rimless chamberings which can't use factory ammo when "ackleyized", the barrel can't be set back to maintain the datum point as is done on threaded barrels, so you end up with an Improved-improved chamber which has waaaay too much headspace for factory ammo. So it's handloading only unless it's done on a rimmed round like the 30-30. Doing an Ackley rechamber from a standard round like 243 Win to a round with a larger chamber such as 6mm Rem Improved will provide a chamber capable of safely chambering both the parent round and the improved version tho. There are some Ackley or Improved chamberings that provide significant improvements over the parent round tho, see the chart below.

Tim

http://www.4-dproducts.com/ackleychart.php

Savage_99 · « **Reply #16 on:** April 25, 2009, 08:10:56 AM »

The claims that an 'improved' cartridge is of some benefit are just that, claims.

They are not 'more efficient' nor does the brass last longer. The 'improved' game is just that to make money for smiths and keep us interested in what is really nonsense.

I fell for it also and I have three such chambers. My guns are therefore worth less and no better.

I met Lysle Kilbourn by the way the inventor of the K Hornet etc. He worked for Lymans at the time.

Be well.

MrJames680 · « **Reply #17 on:** April 25, 2009, 10:39:59 AM »

So is Ackley Improved really more accurate or are they just faster? All I care about is accuracy, not velocity. On the other hand, as a varminter, a faster and flatter trajectory is more desirable but not necessary. As long as that bullet goes where I expect it to go, I am fine. I dont and wont sell any of my guns so value, so I dont care about the value decrees.

What is a .243Win Improved Ackley Improved?

Graybeard · « **Reply #18 on:** April 25, 2009, 10:49:47 AM »

In reality they are more hype than anything. Oh they can and often do extend case life a bit but then if you don't push the pressure limits so will normal cases and if you push the AI's as most do you'll end up with shorter case life.

You can get an honest 100 fps on average with them at same pressure levels. More than that is gained at higher pressures. Loading data that has been pressure tested is in very short supply so most grossly exceed safe or at least SAAMI pressure levels with them.

epanzella · « **Reply #19 on:** April 25, 2009, 11:25:37 AM »

In his book, Po Ackley claims that one of the benefits to his "improved " line of cartridges is tha minimizing of the case taper. This causes the improved case to grip the chamber walls better for less bolt thrust which translates into improved accuracy. Ivariably discussions about "improved" rounds tend to concentrate on velocity gains, which to me would be secondary to accuracy. Nothing is as close to 300 win mag velocity as a 300 win mag, so, if you want one, get one.

MrJames680 · « **Reply #20 on:** April 25, 2009, 06:48:41 PM »

Good info. thanks!
So what exactly is the difference between 243win Ackley Improved and Improved AI.

nomosendero · « **Reply #21 on:** April 25, 2009, 07:09:58 PM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on April 25, 2009, 05:20:45 AM

Quote from: dorothy daily on April 25, 2009, 03:23:07 AM
how? if a person does not reload simply shoot factory fodder, there really is not any difference that i can tell in my 22-250 ai or my regular 22-250 as far as being accurate and the ai is faster.

Not a valid point when applied to a Handi rechamber from the parent round on rimless chamberings which can't use factory ammo when "ackleyized", the barrel can't be set back to maintain the datum point as is done on threaded barrels, so you end up with an Improved-improved chamber which has waaaay too much headspace for factory ammo. So it's handloading only unless it's done on a rimmed round like the 30-30. Doing an Ackley rechamber from a standard round like 243 Win to a round with a larger chamber such as 6mm Rem Improved will provide a chamber capable of safely chambering both the parent round and the improved version tho. There are some Ackley or Improved chamberings that provide significant improvements over the parent round tho, see the chart below.

Tim

http://www.4-dproducts.com/ackleychart.php

Correct, nothing has changed since the last 100 times it has come up, it should not be done esp. with rimless rounds in the Handi as the barrel can't be set back.
The 4-dproducts chart says it well, some rounds benefit little at all & some benefit alot mainly because the powder capacity changes very little in some, but in some like the 30-30AI & 250 Sav. AI it is a large gain as I have seen in my 30-30AI. I have a worthwhile gain in the 25-06AI, Mr. Ackley said this round gained very little at all, which was true with the powders avail at that time, but not now. My 30-06AI gained very little. Look at the new Sierra Manual & see what they say about the 6mmRemAI, they have the pressure data too. There is no set vel. amt. ALL AI cartridges gain, just the facts. How this 100fps story got going is one of life's great mysteries.

Hammerspur · « **Reply #22 on:** April 26, 2009, 12:46:31 AM »

Good information here. Been interested in AI for some time, mostly a fan of reading about it.

It's a way of getting something different, special.
Couple thoughts I've had on calibers that interested me:

30-30AI sounds good... but you could just get a .308.
.280AI yields a beltless 7 mag... but there's that rimless problem.
30-40AI... just an '06, or might it be more? It couln't reach .300WinMag but maybe .300 H&H, or close?
Venerable old mountain round there for sheep and goats!

Thanks for the chart, Tim... it's in my files now.

FW Conch · « **Reply #23 on:** April 26, 2009, 01:06:41 AM »

MrJames680, I'm not the best to try & answer this, but I'll take a stab @ it anyway. "AI" stands for "Ackley Improved", useing the methods developed by the late Mr. P. O. Ackley. A "true" Ackley Improved includes being able to shoot the orgional round & the AI round in the same chamber. This can only be achieved buy setting the barrel back, provideing a "crush" fit, the origional case "fireforms" to the AI dimensions & we have an AI case. A Handi barrel cannot be set back. If we take an AI reamer & run it in a Handi chamber, the resulting headspace would be too long for the origional round, & longer than an AI round. Lets say it was done on a 30-06. It would not be a 30-06, & it would not be a 30-06 Ackley Improved. As Tim said, it would now be a 30-06 Ackley Improved, Improved ! The only way to shoot that rifle now is to use one of the fireforming methods, to create the new case, & it is a "wildcated" wildcat !

Anytime someone changes case deminsions it is often labeled "Improved", such as 280 Improved. Ackley Improved only refers to the work of Mr. P.O.

My late Father used to say "if you want to go raceing, buy a raceing engine, don't overstress a stock block trying to hop it up". I say, if we want a "Magnum", we should buy a "Magnum".

As stated by others, "AIing" seems to help the 30-30, the 257 Roberts, & the 300 Savage. But, as alluded to by Mr. P.O. Ackley himself, doing it to anything else & the "Improvement" may only be in the eyes of the beholder, & little more than the "dabbleings" of another shooter, reloader, with "excessive-compulsive" syndrome

. Hope This Helps ? Jim

Hammerspur · « **Reply #24 on:** April 27, 2009, 04:07:03 AM »

Quote from: Hammerspur on April 26, 2009, 12:46:31 AM

30-40AI... just an '06, or might it be more? It couldn't reach .300WinMag but maybe .300 H&H, or close? Venerable old mountain round there for sheep and goats!

Tim,
I was looking over the chart re: my selection: http://www.4-dproducts.com/ackleychart.php
Easily do-able out of a 30-30, methinks I picked a winner!

Factory Cartridge Bullet Weight Factory Velocity
30-06 Springfield 180 2700
300 H&H 180 2880

Factory Cartridge Bullet Weight Factory Velocity Ackley Velocity % Increase
30-40 Krag 180 2430 2900 19.3

But longer bbl. would be nice of course. $:-\$

quickdtoo · « **Reply #25 on:** April 27, 2009, 05:02:42 AM »

Looks like a winner to me, here's what AG has to say about it, they list a nominal velocity of 2920fps for a 180gr bullet.

Tim

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=383

Well-liked by it's originator, P.O. Ackley called the .30-40 AI "one of the best of the Improved cartridges." However, owing to the cartridges rimmed design, Ackley bemoaned the lack of suitable actions to properly utilize the powerful round, finding it "a very fine cartridge for the better single-shot actions."

Ackley was particularly pleased with the power of the .30-40 Improved, stating "Loads equalling the .300 Magnum have been used for a long time by owners of rifles chambered for this cartridge."

Ackley fire-formed cases by simply firing factory .30-40 Krag ammunition in an Improved chamber.

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #26 on:** April 27, 2009, 05:20:19 AM »

So should you be able to just neck size with standard 30-40 dies once you fire form or are the 30-40 AI dies gonna be needed ? Kurt

JerryKo · « **Reply #27 on:** April 27, 2009, 05:24:01 AM »

Quote

Factory Cartridge Bullet Weight Factory Velocity Ackley Velocity % Increase
30-40 Krag 180 2430 2900 19.3

Never knew that before.

Jerry

quickdtoo · « **Reply #28 on:** April 27, 2009, 05:41:38 AM »

Quote from: PHATINJUN on April 27, 2009, 05:20:19 AM

So should you be able to just neck size with standard 30-40 dies once you fire form or are the 30-40 AI dies gonna be needed ? Kurt

Good luck on neck sizing only (even if the improve case would fit in a standard die, which it won't) if you load it to it's full potential, the shoulder is gonna need to be pushed back sooner or later depending on the load, dies are $$pendy!

Tim

30-40 Improved dies

Singleshotsam · « **Reply #29 on:** April 27, 2009, 10:06:16 AM »

Quote

"What is a .243Win Improved Ackley Improved? "

Quote

Posted by: alicraftjet

...also 243 are known to wash out barrels quickly some as soon as a couple thousand rounds read the facts.Ackleys have 40 degree shoulders which dont allow hot powder kernals to be thrown into the leade of the the rifling as much as the standard 28 degree shoulders at thousands of feet per second because of a bridging effect. All this while temperatures are thousands of degrees which erodes the leade quickly...