Author Topic: Need caliber opinion (Read 1135 times)

Loki_762 · « **on:** July 18, 2004, 10:22:43 PM »

A couple of weeks back, I took my Marlin .17 HMR out for its maiden hunt for ground squirrels. All shots were between 100 and 150 yards, and almost everything that was hit with it expired on impact, some of them very impressively so. I love the gun, and will keep it forever. However, on some of the longer shots, the bullet just passed through, without expanding. As I made those shots, I began thinking that for some of these longer shots on ground squirrels, say between 150 to 300 yards, I want something that has a little more POW! on impact. Now, I know that I could get a heavy barrel .223, and that would do the job nicely. However, the most endearing thing about this little cartridge was that I could see my shots through my scope, and I know I can't do that with my sporter weight .223 - but I don't know about the bull barrel ones. So, here is what I was thinking. I would like to build either a Contender or an Encore rifle, and I have narrowed it down to three possible calibers. The first is the .204 Ruger. I like this round because I know that I will be able to get brass for it eventually, and that it has a very flat trajectory out to 300 yards. The second choice is a Tactical 20, which would require a little more work, be a little more expensive, but would have a lot of brass availabe because it is based on the .223. It is also slightly faster than the .204, but not really enough that it would influence my decision. My third choice, (and to be honest, my favorite at this point in time,) is the .17 Mach IV. Yes, it would be pretty expensive to start with, because of all the dies I would have to get to make my brass. However, it has the speed of the other two cartridges, the trajectory of the other two cartridges, and a lighter recoil than the other two cartridges. Not only that, but it uses less powder, and I am guessing it would be easier on barrels. Now, this is a "project gun" (too broke to get it all now,) so I have some time. What is your opinion? Any help is appreciated.

dave375hh · « **Reply #1 on:** July 19, 2004, 02:33:46 AM »

Try a .17 Rem, or put a muzzlebreak on the .223 either will allow you to see your hits.

skb2706 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 19, 2004, 03:07:59 AM »

Another option is a .221 FB in the rifle of your choice. Easy to load for, plenty accurate, low recoil. Thats my gun of choice cause my fingers don't hold .17 cal bullets very well.

Lawdog · « **Reply #3 on:** July 19, 2004, 11:13:08 AM »

Loki_762,

Quote

I began thinking that for some of these longer shots on ground squirrels, say between 150 to 300 yards, I want something that has a little more POW! on impact.

300 yards!! Well that leaves out the .221 Fire Ball, .22 Hornet(K-Hornet too), etc.. Even the .222 Remington would be stretching the barrel a tad. Me I would go with a 24 heavy barrel .223 Remington. There is some barrel jump but you should still be able to see the bullet hit. Forget a sporter weight rifle as you would never see the hit. Lawdog

Carl l. · « **Reply #4 on:** July 19, 2004, 12:56:50 PM »

Loki-762,

After you decide what gun you are going to get, what scope are you going to put on it for the ground squirrels out to 300 yds? Carl L.

Loki_762 · « **Reply #5 on:** July 19, 2004, 01:32:48 PM »

Well, Lawdog, I had thought about another .223 as well. My only concern with a .223 is that the bullets would not be explosive enough for a critter that is only 9 inches tall and 2 inches wide. Do you have some suggestions on .223 loads that might fit the bill for ground squirrels?
Carl - Not too sure on the scope just yet. I usually wait until I have the gun before I even start shopping for that. Probably a Bushnell in 4x12 or higher, I would imagine. That is what I have on my .17 HMR, and it has worked well for me so far.

Carl l. · « **Reply #6 on:** July 19, 2004, 03:34:28 PM »

Loki_762, You have some big ground squirrels out there in Wa. The ground squirrels in WV. are 3 to 4" long and 1 1/2" to 2" wide and some smaller then that. Well I hope you get a good set up to shoot them. Have fun. Carl L.

Questor · « **Reply #7 on:** July 19, 2004, 03:49:53 PM »

You can see your hits with a varmint-weight 223 bolt action. 40 grain bullets minimize recoil. It's a 300 yard gun.

Catfish · « **Reply #8 on:** July 20, 2004, 05:57:00 AM »

Any of the rounds mentioned will workfine, but I will add mt personal favorit to the bunch. The .17 AH. I push a 19 grn. buller at 3,600 fps. It shoots point blank to about 290 yrds., and it only takes 10.4 grns. of powder. I have a carbine barrel form Bullberry and have shot alot of 1/4 moa groups with it. When working up loads for this round do it 1/10 of a grain at a time, presure goes up real fast. For GS it`s the ideal long range gun. I shoot Calhoon bullets, but would recomand you try the Berger MEF bullets. I get total penartation on groundhoga once in a while with the Calhoons, they are just alittle harder than I like, but given the chance I want to get a coyote with this gun. The berger MEF bullets are to thin skinned for groundhog in mo oppenion, but ideal foe squirrels.

scruffy · « **Reply #9 on:** July 20, 2004, 06:03:00 AM »

You can see little 7" long, 2" thick ground squirells at 300 yards?

? :eek:

Your eyes are better than mine! :wink:

I'd get a 223 with slow twist rate, 1-10" or 1-12" and shoot 40grain vmax or tnt's, they will be plenty explosive, nothing to pick up.... For factory loads the winchester varmint pack ammo, 45 grain, 3600 fps or winchester supreme 40 grain 3700fps would be excellent choices. I've shot them both and use the winchester varmint pack 45's on coyotes and they're a bit too destructive on coyotes. They tear a fox up pretty bad. On a ground squirel you'd need a spoon and a bowl to gather up the remains.

Or I'd get a 17 remington. Hmmm, yea, for 2" thick ground squirels I'd probably get a 17 remington. If I was going to use it for other things, like coyotes, I'd get the .223. I know alot of people love the .17 remington on coyotes, and more power to them, but I like the more forgiving .223. Alot of coyotes in my area don't give up a nice shot so you end up shooting at a moving target and I need a little fudge factor...

But for ground squirells only, I'd get a 17 remington.

later,
scruffy

Lawdog · « **Reply #10 on:** July 20, 2004, 07:45:02 AM »

Carl l.,

I believe that what you call a ground squirrel in WV is actually a Chipmunk. We have those out west too but I don't hunt them. I much prefer to watch them and their antics when out in the field. They are kind of the clowns of the woods and love to play keep-away with each other. To see what we are talking about go to http://www.scarysquirrel.org/vacation/surprisevalley/part2/ and they have a number of pictures of Ground Squirrels there.

Loki_762,

I totally dislike Big Game Ballistic Tip bullets but I really like the Varmint Ballistic Tip bullets. Try a 40 gr. Ballistic Tip and it will turn a Ground Squirrel into jelly. As for a scope I would go to a 6-18X 44mm at the very least for 300 plus shots. Small groups and tight lines to all. Lawdog

Wlscott · « **Reply #11 on:** July 20, 2004, 10:59:31 AM »

My .02........223, 40 or 50 grain V Max bullet.

I have two...One is a single shot H&R Ultra, and the other is a Colt AR15. I watch bullet impact on prairie dogs "way out there" all the time. If you do everything right (breathing, trigger control, etc) you can watch the bullet impact with a .223REM.

Loki_762 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 20, 2004, 05:11:55 PM »

I have a Savage Sporter weight in .223 right now, and it is dead accurate with 50 grain v-maxes over 26.8 grains of BL-C2. I am considering one of the heavy barrel models, if I decide to go with the .223. However, I am a little hesitant, as I have heard that the Savages in this caliber have a hard time stabilizing the lighter, shorter bullets, due to the rifling twist. Is this true, or will it be able to handle the 40 grain poly tips or hollow points I would like to load?

varmit_master · « **Reply #13 on:** July 21, 2004, 04:08:09 AM »

Hi i have a new Rem 700 223 i loaded with AA2015 powder 25.5 grs and a 50gr BT i didnt get it until after coyote season was out this yr season it opens back up Sep 1 i would like to try it out VM

oneshotonekill · « **Reply #14 on:** July 21, 2004, 06:17:38 AM »

Locki_762,
The savage 223 uses a 1:9.25 twist that should work well with the 40 grain bullets. My model 12fvss shoots .5" or less groups with 40 grain v-max @ about 3700fps. I have not had any jacket separation at those velocities. If you were running them faster with that fast a twist rate you could have the thin jacketed bullets come apart before reaching the target, I've only witnessed this in a 1:7 twist Ar-15 someone was shooting with 40 grain bullets.

Loki_762 · « **Reply #15 on:** July 21, 2004, 11:51:11 AM »

Wow, that sounds like one heck of a load! What kind and how much powder do you use? If I do go .223, I will have to keep that one in mind. How is terminal performance on small critters? Pretty nasty I would imagine! Thanks for the info.

oneshotonekill · « **Reply #16 on:** July 21, 2004, 03:57:36 PM »

Quote from: Loki_762

Wow, that sounds like one heck of a load! What kind and how much powder do you use? If I do go .223, I will have to keep that one in mind. How is terminal performance on small critters? Pretty nasty I would imagine! Thanks for the info.

The load I was referring to is 25.3 gr Accurate 2015 a 40 gr V-max in rem brass with Rem 7 1/2 primers. This is very close to a max load so I would recommend backing off by 10% and working up. I was averaging right around 3700 with that load out of a 26" barrel. It is very destructive on impact.

SD Handgunner · « **Reply #17 on:** July 25, 2004, 07:37:30 PM »

I'll give another vote for the .223 with 40gr. Bullets. In a Ruger MK77RFP MKII S-S Sporter I just sold I was loading the 40gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips with a max charge of H-4198SC. Accuracy with this gun-n-load was down right scary, 1/2" or slightly less 5 shot groups at 100 yards were the norm. Velocity out of the 22" Sporter Weight Barrel averaged 3650 FPS.

Yea I know what you are thinking, well a buddy had something I wanted really bad, and he wanted the .223 Ruger really bad so a trade was made. Since we made the trade a few weeks ago my buddy has not missed a single gopher he has shot at with the .223 Ruger, and he tells me the little 40gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip is so explosive you really have to look for evidence that the gopher was really there.

I have used this same load on Prairie Dogs out of both the Ruger .223, and a couple different Super 14 T/C Contenders in .223. Even with marginal hits this bullet creates dead Prairie Dogs, even at long range.

SD Handgunner

oso45-70 · « **Reply #18 on:** July 26, 2004, 08:57:31 AM »

Gentleman,
I can't think of a better show than shooting a p-dog or ground squirrel out
to the range you all are talking about with a 17 Rem or one of the 20 cal.s
Its like watching a slow motion movie. Even the 223 Rem which i love shakes too much to see the action. I can't say enough about effect of the impact on p-dogs with the 17 Rem. It also does a good job on coyotes. I haven't lost one yet,, Knock on wood. I feel blessed to be able to go out and do the things i love most of all, Thats to be able to shoot,, Our rights are being eroded day by day. Take care and stay safe........Joe........