Browning 40/65 BPCR bullet help

[Marty]

Hi Folks,
I just acquired a new 40/65 after searching for a year. Any suggestions to bullet weight and mould. I was thinking of a Lyman Snover 400gr or RCBS 400BPS.
I would like to get a Hoch nose pour mould, but the price is substantially more than the other two. Would .410 be about the right bullet size for this Browning bore, or should I slug it; not sure how consistent the Browning bores were. Thanks for your help.

Marty

[Ray Newman]

The Browning BPCR came w/ a Badger barrel in .45-70 & 45-65 models.   Badger is pretty consistent barrel manufacturer.

In my 40-65 BPCR, I shoot the RCBS BPS bullets that mikes about .410" propelled charge of XMP5744 because of cleaning the action. @ best, the action is very difficult to take down for cleaning & to avoid BP clean up, I developed a stout Nitro/White powder load.

[Marty]

Hi Ray,
Thanks for the comments. I think I will start with the RCBS mould; I like the potential of the bullet shape. I have been reading up on the duplex loads.

Marty

[artr]

i have yhe same rifle it shoots the lyman schmitzer 400gr bullet at .409 the best with black  or 23 gr imr4198  good luck   oal is 3.015

[Marty]

Hi ARTR,
Hmm, maybe I will have to take another closer look at the Lyman. I have had good luck with both brands for my other firearms over the years. Thanks for the info. What kind of group sizes were you getting with your loads?
Locally we are shooting mostly 100 and 200 yard ranges; maybe longer if the interest develops on silhouette.

Marty

[PowderFlask2]

First of all

Try shooting BP in that gun and you will find that no and I mean absolutely no black powder gets in the action of the gun.

This is a common misconception of people like myself who have shot muzzleloaders for 25-30 years and have cleaned the locks after every trip to the range

with a BP cartridge gun all the powder goes down the barrel and clean up is not much different than my 22-250, just takes a couple of more patches  I do not take the action apart on my Hiwall or Roller nor do I need to.

Second of all, if you call Steve Brooks or Paul Jones not only will they make a mold to exactly fit the bore of your gun, but Steve gave me seating depth and load reccomendations that cut the learning curve and had me shooting well enough to compete in short order
I for one will NEVER buy a BP cartridge gun without getting a mold from one of these guys

Just trying to help

[Ray Newman]

As an aside to this thread, not many Browning BPCR Shooters realize that Browning made a change to the stock manufacturing. In the early production, the butt stock through bolt hole was drilled very close to the toe of the stock, leaving very little wood around the hole.

Since a # of these rifles broke while ”in-service”, Browning changed the angled of the hole to place it higher up in the butt stock to provide more support/strength to wood surrounding the hole.

A quick way to see what you have is to remove the butt plate.

I have never seen a method to reinforce the older type stocks & from what I was told a replacement butt stock is around US$300.00. A Fellow Shooter who has a engine lathe maybe suggested obtaining a piece of the newer extremely light weight bicycle frame metal from a scrapped bike & turning it down to fit, then securing it w/ epoxy.??

Needless to say, I am extremely carefully w/ my BPCR & transport it in a hard case.

I’ve wondered if you could find a slightly over sized piece of PVC or similar irrigation/water pipe & install it?

The key issue is the weight of the material that you reinforce the stock w/ as  the Browning BPCR was design to make NRA silhouette weight.

[cooper]

I have heard (but haven't seen) that there was an article in one of the single-shot magazines (either Single Shot Exchange, or Single Shot Rifle Journal) on how to reinforce that hole - and they did it with a piece of thin-walled aluminum tubing.  If anyone knows about this article can you please let us know which magazine it was in, and when?

Also, regarding that early-version thin stock -  I have one in 40/65 and it's still fine.  I heard that the problem cropped up mostly when people put that rifle into one of those "stock-rest" type of contraptions for holding the gun steady while cleaning it or working on it.  I guess some of them are designed to grip the stock near the belly of the buttstock, and if you're too aggressive with the clamp, you can crack those stocks.

The Lyman Snover bullet works great, but for black powder shooting, it doesn't carry enough lube!  If you will be shooting where it is not too hot, or if it is hot, the humidity is high, you probably won't have a problem.  But if you shoot where it gets hot AND dry you will have fouling problems.  Here in Montana we will often be shooting in 90-105 degrees, with NO shade and humidity at 20% or less!  That is very bad news for fouling, and with the small amount of lube this bullet carries, that just makes it worse.

Dr. Richard Gunn designed the Lyman Postell, but Lyman took the design and 1) made the lube grooves shallower, and 2) switched the ogive from a secant, to a tangent shape.  NEI makes this same mould just as Dr. Gunn designed it (the number is either the 212G or the 215D -  if you're interested I can find out when I get home), and it carries more lube.  NEI moulds are sort-of "semi-custom" when it comes to price (about $100).   I shoot the NEI 216A and love it!  

When you clean the rifle, make yourself a little caddy out of wood and just set the rifle in it upside down and clean it that way.  Any cleaning solution or black powder sludge then drips down out of the action.  About every 1000 rounds of black powder, thoroughly spray the action with brake cleaner, and then after it dries, with G-96 Gun Treatment.  My Browning has nearly 7,000 black powder rounds through it, and I've never had to take the action apart (and probably never will).

[TexasMac]

Cooper, the article you are referring to was published in the June 2000 edition of the Single Shot Exchange magazine.  Just make sure you use a tube with walls thin enough to remove the stock bolt.  I've heard of one fellow that epoxied a thick-wall tube in place with the stock mounted on the rifle.  That stock isn't coming off.  Also, I'd recommend installing the flat washer in the stock prior to permanently installing the reinforcement tube.  This will allow the use of the original larger washer.  The smaller the washer the more likely the stock will crack if the stock bolt is tightened too much.  By the way, the tube would have to be quite heavy to result in exceeding the NRA silhouette weight limit of 12lbs 2 oz, but it is a factor to keep in mind.  I’ve weighed many Browning’s and, with rear sight installed, a couple have weighed 11lbs 12oz.  Especially the smaller caliber and therefore heavier barrel .40-65’s.

Concerning possible stock breakage or splitting.  I’ve spoken to several hundred Browning BPCR owners.  A very few with the original stock design reported broken or split stocks, but usually due to rough handling, dropping the rifle on the butt stock or applying too much clamping pressure in a rifle vice.  If your rifle has the original designed stock and you do not install the reinforcement tube you likely will not have a problem with normal handling.  I have not modified mine since I hesitate to change anything that may have collector value.  But I also believe the stock is likely to crack with age as the wood dries out.  So about once a year I remove the butt plate and swab the stock bolt hole and other exposed wood with wood moisturizers.  New Life makes the best stuff I’ve found.  It is a wood moisturizer with refined beeswax, and is sold at a lot of antique stores.  I use it on the wood on all my rifles.

Concerning the Badger barrels and Browning chambers.  Ray is certainly correct that the Badger bores are quite uniform and consistent from barrel to barrel.  But keep in mind that Miroku, Browning’s contract manufacturer in Japan, contoured and chambered the barrels.  I’m not implying that Miroku’s work was in any way shoddy or marginal.  Just keep in mind that the rifles were manufactured in a production line.  And humans are known to make mistakes or cut corners.  If I’m going to spend a bunch of bucks on moulds, and/or a bunch of time working up loads, I’d sure like to absolutely know what the chamber dimensions are.  Prior to working up loads, I make a chamber cast of each rifle I shoot.  I also slug the bore to determine groove diameter, bore diameter, and bore uniformity from breech to muzzle.

Ray, you are a little low on your estimated cost of a replacement stock.  The stock along is $383.  And, since Browning does not inventory the original designed stock, you will get the new design, which means you must also purchase the new butt plate for an additional $36.50.  Due to just receiving a NIB Browning, which was damaged (cracked stock and bent front sight) in shipment by UPS, I just priced several BPCR parts from Browning.

[Ray Newman]

Texas Mac:Great Caesar’s Ghost--by the time you add in shipping, you’re close to US$440.00 for a new butt stock!

Will definitely call the Single Shot Exchange for a reprint of the article.

When will your work on the BPCR be ready?

[Bad Flynch]

Marty--some of the Browning .40-65s had a slightly different groove diameter and so, in theory, took a different size bullet. RCBS will make you a special set of loading dies, if you will call them. The neck diameter and expander will be sized to fit the Browning rifle.

However, the best diameter to size your bullets to is the throat diameter, not the groove diameter. Black powder will bump an undersized bullet up, but it still works better to use the throat diameter. Then have a custom inside expander made that is only 0.002" under your bullet diameter. Reason for the special inside expander is that most modern expanders are small enough to give a death grip on the bullet by the case neck. That is OK for jacketed bullets, but resizes lead and hurts accuracy. RCBS makes their Cowboy dies with larger expanders, and the Cowboy die dimensions might just be right.

Hope that helps.

[TexasMac]

Bad Flynch, excellent recommendations.  Maybe I can help out a little more also.  Here's my view on the situation.

A Browning BPCR in .40-65 caliber has a freebore region between the front of the case section of the chamber and the throat or leade.  The diameter of this freebore region is approximately 0.002" larger than the groove diameter.  Ideally, to mazimize accuracy, the bullet should be sized to match the freebore diameter.  But a shooter also has to allow a couple of thousands for fouling.  I have made chamber cast and slugged the bores of many Browning's.  The groove diameter of the .40-65's have been consistently right at 0.409" +/- 0.0005".  The freebore diameter is 0.411" +/- 0.0005".  So, if your rifle chamber falls within these dimensions, I would recommend a groove diameter bullet of 0.409".  But again, if you are going to spend good money on having moulds and dies made, make a chamber cast and slug the bore of your rifle.  Or have a gunsmith do it if you lack the experience.

In discussing a freebore region in Browning BPCR's, I should make a distinction that only the .40-65 and .45-90 caliber rifles have freebore.  The .45-70 caliber rifles do not.  By the way, my comments only apply to the BPCR models.

Also, for what it's worth, Redding also makes an off-the-shelf die set that matches the Browning BPCR chambers and bore.  I have a set for the .40-65 and it is excellent, and I found much cheaper than a custom set from RCBS.  You can also get special expander dies from Buffalo Arms.

Wayne

[Bad Flynch]

Wayne, I am very glad to get your input. If the shooter is going to shoot BP exclusively, then the BP "thump" will bump up a moderately undersized bullet, if it is not too hard (e.g., 1:20). That makes the freebore and throat diameters a little less critical, except I always feel better when things are closely matched. Gas cutting around and undersized bullet will ruin anybody's day. Fouling is an issue that I sometimes wonder about. I generally clean regularly, so the fouling issue is a little less of a problem.

I own both a .45-70 BPCR and a .40-65 BPCR, but shoot my Pedersolis while I am ironing out the learning kinks. The BPCRs have such a good reputation and have classy barrels, so I use the others. I bought the RCBS die set and use it some for Browning. We really don't have a good long range place to shoot close by, so I really do not get the first-hand experience with BP that I need and all my other long range shooting was NRA high power. That is good training, but not exactly the same.

Have fun, be safe, and thanks again for the reply.

[Marty]

Gents,
I've been away for awhile and just checked my computer. Thanks to one and all for your input and discussion on this thread. There's a wealth of info. It just goes to show that there is always more to learn. I plan to re-read and digest your thoughts and apply to my shooting plans. Thanks again!



Marty

[The Shrink]

Marty

I'm shooting a 40-70BN and have loaded for a 45-70 Trapdoor in black powder and cast bullets.  In each case I fireformed the cases to the chamber and never sized them again.  If you do this you can compress your powder in the case, thumb seat the bullet to the powder, and only put enough crimp on it to prevent it from coming out.  The most accurate load for the Trapdoor had the bullet (500 gr) spinning freely in the case, just enough crimp to keep it from coming out.

I have sizing dies for both and don't use them except to make brass for the 40-70BN when needed.  

Wayne the Shrink

There is no 'right' that requires me to work for you or you to work for me!

[sureshot2040]

my cousin shoots a bpcr 40-65
he uses a lyman snover 400 grain bullet with xmp5744
yesterday he shot a nice 6 inch group at 500 yrds.
i used it a couple of weeks ago to shoot a one hole three shot group at 100 yrds.
that is one nice rifle.
i have to add that i also shot a 6 inch three shot group at 500 yards using
my little h&r buffalo classic 45-70 shooting the very acurate 405 grain rsp
and imr3031

[Marty]

Hi Wayne,
I have fireformed and just neck sized or crimp for bullet tension for other cal.s before. I haven't for the 40/65 Browning, but will check it out.

Sureshot,
Congrats to your cousin; that's nice shooting! I haven't used XMP 5744 before, but will try some. For now I am planning to use Triple Seven to load the 40/65 since our local shoots are BP or similar only. I will have to get some 5744 when I get the chance to see how well the BPCR can perform.

Marty

[AJC]

I wanted to print this topic...I'm looking for accuracy in my Browning 40/65.
When I try to print ...it's cut off on the right side.
What am I doing wrong?

Art Croft

[TexasMac]

AJC,
Your printer driver (software) is likely set up to print portrait as a default.  In that case you need to go to page setup (under file) and change it to landscape.  I also have my left and right margins set up for .5".  This works for me.

Another way is to drag you curser over all the messages, select copy (under edit).  Then open a MS Word file and paste (under edit)  the messages into the Word file.  This is one method to store the info on your computer if you don't want to print it.

Wayne

[Capt Henry]

Marty
If it will help, I use a Paul Jones Creedmoor bullet 420 grains with 20-1 alloy SPG lube, in front of 65 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 drop tubed with a .060 Walters wad. and a Federal magnum primer. I use winchester 45-70 reformed brass necksized with a small flare I leave the flare.
Of course all rifles are different and what works in mine may not be the best load for yours. In my case the bullet made all the difference I tried a lyman snover but I never could get it to work as well as the PJ.
Hope this helps, Good luck.

[rk4570]

I am a little late finding this forum, but when I saw this thread I wanted to jump in.I have just started working w/A Browning in 40/65 and am working up loads w/ Saeco #640 376gr & #740 415gr bullets cast in 30/1. So far I am loading 56.0 to 58.0 of Swiss 11/2 with the best being 58.0 with Vel. 1205 & Sd 12.1 for a 10 shot string.this load was w/ the #740 415 gr. bullet.

I have tried Swiss 3f with 60.0 gr.& the #640 376gr. bullet Vel. 1324 Sd 5.1, this load looks very good under 21/2" at 200 yards.

All loads are w/ Starline brass,cci br2 primers, spg lube,.30 veg. wad :-) I would like to hear from all of you shooting Brownings esp. in 40/65 ........

[cooper]

I'll pass on a little more of what I've learned with my Browning 40/65.  

All of the bullets I've tried have shot well in that gun, with only one exception.  That exception is the RCBS 300 gr bullet.  I wanted a lightweight bullet to shoot at a high MV, just for offhand shooting.  But I just couldn't get this bullet to shoot under about 2.5 inches, until I tried a real strange experiment:  I duplexed with Pyrodex P and 4759.  I used 4 gr 4759 (RL-7 works just as well) and somewhere around 40-42 gr of Pyrodex P, in Starline cases with a Winchester magnum primer.   That load worked great, at a MV of 1400 fps.  And blow-tubing is not necessary.  (This load would be illegal for silhouette or for any black-powder only competition).   I can't get this bullet to work with black powder.

The other bullets I've used:   RCBS 400 gr., Lyman Snover (410166 or something like that - comes out at 408 gr.), Paul Jones Creedmore (422 gr), and NEI 216A (432 gr).

All of these bullets shoot about the same: 1.25 to 1.5 inches at 100 yds.   Frequently I can get groups under 1", but I haven't been able to do that consistently.

[Sharps-Nut]

You guys are wasting your time those things are junk.  No just kidding bought one myself when my shooting partner's was such a fine firearm.  To the original poster I would say put off your mold purchase until you can swing the 120.00 for a brooks or a little more for the jones.  If your not going to compete on bpcr then any of the production molds will work fine.   I have personally competed in bpcr locally and like many of these gentleman in the nationals using one of these guns.  Mine has heavy burl wood on it and it made weight at the nationals this year with ease and I have a weight in the stock hole.   My weight is 4 or five 520 grain lead bullets for my 45-70.  It still cleared the mark by several ounces.  The weight is to ease the kicking as my days in the sport are numbered due to a shoulder injury.  I use a brooks mold winchester brass, winchester large rifle primer, and late production goex cartridge powder.  The bullet is seated just behind the second lube ring on the driving band of a 400 grain brooks bullet.  Very accurate combo, minute of accuracy if I do my part, I just rarely do.   The throat design on the 40-65 was taken from badger at browning request and matches many of the chamber reamer's used by some of the best custom guns makers.  The reason the 45-70 chamber was not as good was they followed the sammi chamber on 45-70 and it is not desiged for black powder.  This was according to a good friend of Ernie Stalman of badger barrel's.  And since he supplied the barrels I figure he would know.  Both guns shoot very well but the 40's have a little better chamber design making getting a load a little less tricky. If any of you have heard or was there a 40-65 browning shot the record small group this year at whittington center at the bpcr  nationals.  The challenge is to place five shot group on paper at 200 yards.  Its sponsored by pedersoli and is a great side line game at the nationals.  I can't remember the group size but it can be read about at bpcr.net and the load is listed.   I really enjoyed everyones comment on this thread.  I realize now why I like this page.  Everyone has opinion and most  everyone is right on the money and more than willing to sharing there personal experience.  Try getting information out of some of the other comp. shooting sports my god its like pulling teeth.  Good day to all of you and keep those browning doing what they were designed to do, thats shooting little groups and hopefully charged with black.  Ps weight your gun first but my experience is they will easily make weight even if you put a little pipe in the stock to reinforce it. Shoot straight.  Sharps-Nut

[Marty]

Thanks again Guys,
Appreciate your sharing of personal information on the 40/65 loading. I borrowed a buddy of mine's Lyman 385gr Lyman ( #2640660) mould to try a few loads. He also has the same model Browning. I think I will take the advice and save for a Brooks mould. They do cost more, but the bullet is a major factor in this operation.

This has been a great thread, and I think other BPCR shooters have benefitted from the input as well.

Cheers,

Marty