Author Topic: Bolt Action (only) 45-70's Stand up and be counted (Read 8919 times)

DonT · « **on:** July 26, 2004, 04:58:32 AM »

This is an off shoot of another thread on the board...

I recently did some trading for a Siamese Mauser that had been converted some time ago to 45-70. Nice job, sporter stock, Timney trigger, receiver peep, bedding and (I am assuming) either a Shaw or Douglas barrel. After plunking a few "sighter rounds" in at 50 yards the gun was holding "cloverleafed" three hole groups. Took her over to the 100yd range and walked the sights where they needed to be and ended up with a 5 shot group with another 3 holes cloverleafed and 2 in the nine ring. Tain't too bad for an ole codger who is blind in one eye and can't see outa the other shooting a peep sight with a regular post front site!!! :grin:

Liked it so much I bought a Enfield converted to to 45-70 by Navy Arms from one of the folks on the board and am awaiting its arrival. According to Navy Arms this is one they did and sold before doing them for Gibbs. Looking forward to getting it to have some fun with.

I use (your welcome to use at your own risk) Winchester 45-70 brass, primed with cci mag rifle primers, 28.5 grains of AA5744 and a 405gr (got some 500 gr. comin) RNFP hardcast bullets done by a local caster. This load leaves a lot of burned powder in the barrel between shots (less with the CCI Mag. Primers though) but it all gets pushed out with the next shot with no appreciatable effect on accuracy. These are mild loads that shoot with a rainbow arc but can be shot all day without beating up the shooter.

With the flat nose bullets it can get a little cantangerous at times feedin a round outa the mag. Seems these guns was built for long pointy or slender round nose bullets and the FN lead ones seems to get jammed into the back shoulder of the barrel from time to time. Although I have fed 3 rounds from the mag without a problem if I go slow. Other wise I jist feed em one at a time settin em on the mag follower and closing the bolt like a single stoker. Since this is a "fun gun" and ain't ever gonna be used for a quick followup shot on somethin deadlier than a paper target or milk jug at 100+ yards the feeding issue doesn't bother me cause I have always been able to manually feed another round and put the sucker down before it got too close :wink: I might look for a staright round nose bullet and try that some time to see if it corrects the issue.

Anyway I like Siamese and the jury is out on the enfield till it shows but I am sure I will enjoy that one too. It is fun to pull out an old cartridge belts full of these big old straight walled cartridges loaded with cast slugs then, when folks are expecting to see a High Wall, roller or sharps, pull out a "modern looking" bolt rifle.. I always have folks askin what it is, where can they get one, etc...

OK folks thats my tale now get out the flash light, look in the dark dusty corners of the ole gun safe and see what you got tucked way back there in the corner. :grin: Then tell us about it!!!

Have a great week folks.......
DonT

Coltrane · « **Reply #1 on:** July 26, 2004, 02:32:58 PM »

I tried out my new Gibbs Enfield (it's marked Navy Arms) yesterday. It is a SWEET shooting gun. It likes 350gr cast bullets for sure. I used a handload of AA2495 in it that would fit in an available Lee dipper and fall between min and max loads.

I want to try some longer bullets in it, especially the Postell style bullets.
I think the extra length will let it feed better from the magazine. That is my main gripe, the magazine has a lot of room for bullet length, but most of my bullets have a flat meplat and are a little stubby. They would not feed without a lot of forceful coaxing from me.

Best thing of all, that barrel is heavy enough to soak up some recoil. Trapdoor loads are soft shooting. Does not pound the pee out of you when you pull the trigger (a very NICE trigger, I might add).

Coltrane

DonT · « **Reply #2 on:** July 27, 2004, 10:50:07 AM »

Coltrane,

Looks like you and me are loaners when it comes to bolt action 45-70's...

DonT

Coltrane · « **Reply #3 on:** July 29, 2004, 04:29:38 PM »

Just get to have all the fun to ourselves then, DonT!!! :-D

Coltrane

DonT · « **Reply #4 on:** July 29, 2004, 04:36:34 PM »

Guess your right Coltrane.. Just got a Navy Arms Bolt Action 45-70 (for runner of the Gibbs). Sure is purty hope to shoot her this weekend.

Boy a lot of folks are sure missin out on a whole parcel fo fun!!!

DonT

WJM · « **Reply #5 on:** July 31, 2004, 07:37:14 PM »

I have a Gibbs 45-70 (built on the #4 Enfield action) and love it. The barrel Navy Arms made for it is much thicker than my Marlin and since the #4 action was converted by both the British Army and Gibbs into the 7.62 Nato round (55,000+ psi), it should be a very strong gun. Search for the Ron Card article on this gun where he says it can handle Ruger class loadings from the manuals. (That is not to say that the action is as strong as a Ruger). I do not load myself, but I have a small local commercial loader load for me. My Gibbs has a long throat (Nornady 500 gr to full 2.93 OAL (1,750 fps), 550 hard cast Lead to 2.77 OAL (1,620 fps), same OAL for Speer 400 gr. The action is made for a 3.0+ OAL. I put a mercury suppressor into the stock and with the 8.5 lb weight, the 14oz mercury suppressor and a nice slip on stock cushion, recoil is acceptable. One historical note in case you didn't see the American Rifleman article last year on the Remington-Lee 1879 and 1885 45-70 rifles. These "Lee" based bolt action 45-70s predate all lever action 45-70s. The Gibbs receiver/magazine looks just like the 1879 and 1885 Remington-Lees. The US military bought and used thousands of them, especially the Navy, in numerous repeat purchases (so they must have worked fine). Remington also sold over 80,000 1885s to foreign military(mostly 43-77s however). As we all know the Army rejected the Marlin 1881 and Winchester 1886.

DonT · « **Reply #6 on:** August 02, 2004, 04:56:15 AM »

Looks like our group has grown to 3, welcome aboard WJM....

I got a chance to fool with the Enfield conversion this weekend and I must say I am thrilled... Got her clover leafing at 50 yds then ran outa ammo and didn't get a chance to wander over to the 100yd range.

It is a bit more "abrupt" than my 12# Siamese mauser in 45-70 but it is very managable with the loads I was using.

Now I gotta see if I can round up a set of Parker Hale sights that will fit it so I can really get her dialed in.

Take care folks and if there are any others out there with any unique bolt actions 45-70 please feel free to sound off, we would love to hear from ya.

Don :-D

OLEVERN · « **Reply #7 on:** August 20, 2004, 04:41:00 PM »

I have had a Siamese Mauser conversion for a number of years (probably going on about twenty). Conversion was done by E.R. Shaw.
Very accurate with the loads I use in it and devestating on wild hogs.
Take it with me every year to S. Texas. Recently it has to share field time with my Win. 1886 LW.

These are both great platforms taking the venerable .45-70 to new heights of performance, perfect for big hogs.

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #8 on:** August 27, 2004, 06:58:11 AM »

DonT

I've a 45-70 I built on a Siameze action, I refer to it as a .450-400-70 though. I built it in the mid '70s. The barrel is an ER Shaw and it has a Fajen/Bishop stock. I have tried all sorts of sights on it but have settled on an old Redfield base with the auxillery flip up aperture rear sight with a post front sight. I have a Leupold 2.5 Compact with heavy duplex on it for a scope. I have managed to test all sorts of loads through it during the years and it shoots most any quality load really well.

My .450-400-70 load is the Barnes Original 400 gr SP over 64 gr of RL7. It runs 2305 FPS out of my 24" barrel and is not for the feint of heart or for use in weaker actions. The Lee 457-500 GC bullet cast hard cand be pushed at 2050 fps over 62 gr of H4895. The Speer and Rem 400 gr bullets do quite well ove 60 gr of RL7 for 2200 fps. After shooting a few of these loads shooting any of the "heavy" 45-70 loads recommended for lessor rifles is just plain fun. All are quite deadly on any big game animal you may wish to shoot. I have killed several elk and deer with mine.

Larry Gibson

locksley · « **Reply #9 on:** November 06, 2004, 12:51:11 AM »

DON T I have a 45-70 I built on a Siameze action, that I purchased in 1974 in Nashville TN . I have used it to kill several deer but never got to go to Africa with it.

RayO · « **Reply #10 on:** November 07, 2004, 04:54:03 AM »

I've built 2 on standard 98 mausers.They are single shot so feeding was not an issue. I shoot lead only and they perform well.

Zelsdorf · « **Reply #11 on:** August 28, 2009, 08:37:54 AM »

I recently purchased a .45-70 26" barrel P-14 Enfield conversion. Paid $425 for it. Had Lyman receiver rear sight and a band with a regular front sight. It was drilled and tapped for scope mounts. I had trouble getting the proper Weaver mounts for it as I did not know the contour of the action. Similar to a Model 30 Remington. The magazine was shortened a little as it is stocked with a custom stock. I mounted a BSA 2 to 9 power scope as my eyes are not what they used to be. I had a short throat so I purchased a throat reamer as it would not chamber anything but factory loads. Now I seat Barnes 400 gr. semi spitzers way out. Kicks hard off a bench. Not bad off hand.

Lone Star · « **Reply #12 on:** August 28, 2009, 01:05:10 PM »

Wow, a five-year-old thread!

Anyway, I have a Thai M98 Mauser I converted in 1975 to .45-70. Twenty-inch Federal Firearms Co. barrel and Fagen classic stock. Weaver K3 scope in Redfield mounts. Hammered moose, brown bear, caribou and Sitka blacktails with 300HP and 350RN Hornadys. Retired now, it still holds down a prime corner in the safe.

.

StrawHat · « **Reply #13 on:** November 11, 2009, 01:47:05 AM »

In the 70s I had ER Shaw work over a Siamese for me. 26 inch barrel and set up for a scope. I worked up some stout loads for it and had a good time. Sold it for no particular reason.

Recently I got an ER Shaw barreled action, again a 26 inch barrel. I have a Fajen stock I will fit to it and this time will go with express sights. Having been cured of magnumitis, I will probably use more sedate blackpowder loads.

I am intrigued with the idea of the P14 and a 45 caliber barrel. To me it sounds the perfect candidate for a 45-90 or maybe the 45-100.

ratpatrol · « **Reply #14 on:** November 22, 2009, 09:43:31 AM »

This is what I made up a couple years ago, A 458 lott on a mauser action,green mountion 34 inch,octangle barrel,ace varrminter stock and a bsa 8-24 scope, All ment to throu big lead down range with black powder. The gun weights 16 lbs,so It's just a good push and a real blast to shoot. The 458 lott case is 2.8 inches long so it is close to a 45-120 and is a lot cheaper brass to come by,also head size is the .530 same as common belted mag cases. mauser action are supper strong and eazy to covert.
The next project is I have a p14 303 rifle and a adams and bennet 458 bull barrel , I just tappered it and threaded it to the action, But here comes the problems, How do you hold the bolt to open up the face for a 45-70 case also where can I find a wood stock for a p14. I know I shouldn't have started looking at this thread, see what you guys started

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #15 on:** November 22, 2009, 12:32:26 PM »

I have a siamese action 45-70.
Still has the strait bolt.
And wears three leaf express sights.
I had it built a number of years ago by Will in Big Bear, CA.

Were I to do it two years later when 450 marlin came out.... I would have used a 98 action and done 450 Marlin instead.
Only because I had a trap door and was worried about having loads that the trap door can not handle.
Instead I got two more single shots in 45-70 that can handle the hot loads.

GeorgiaDave · « **Reply #16 on:** November 23, 2009, 05:16:59 AM »

Hello from Georgia,

I recently acquired a Mauser action, Navy Arms barreled 54/70. It has been "modified" by a prior owner so that the bolt does not interfere with the scope. The Williams open sights on it are dead on, out to 100 yards, and the scope allows for precise bullet placement out to 2oo yards. I like it pretty good, but it is not my favorite. I have shot some pretty hot handloads in it, but until I get a recoil pad of some sort, I will likely shoot mild loads. I also have a NEF single shot 45/70 with a good recoil pad that loves some 350 gr. HOT loads, so That is what I hunt with. This bad bolt big bore bully boomer will surely see some action in the future, but as for now, it is enjoying the peace and quiet up in my gun safe. Have a great day.

Dave

AtlLaw · « **Reply #17 on:** November 23, 2009, 02:01:43 PM »

Dave if we ever meet up be sure to show me that rifle. Pretty durn interesting!

wtxbadger · « **Reply #18 on:** March 12, 2010, 03:31:15 PM »

This is an interesting thread. I always wondered if there were any bolt action 45-70's manufactured and from what I read here it looks like if you want a bolt action, it will have to be a custom made job. I have a singleshot 45-70, but would really like to find a bolt action.

Looks like Gibbs quit offering their conversion rifle several years ago. Any suggestions on another custom company that might offer a 45-70 conversion?

Bigboar · « **Reply #19 on:** May 19, 2010, 02:01:56 PM »

I have an action on the way. I guess I'll have E.R. Shaw do the work unless there are any suggestions?

bigboar

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #20 on:** May 30, 2010, 10:34:31 AM »

A few pics of what mine looks like.

Larry Gibson

AkMike1 · « **Reply #21 on:** June 15, 2010, 07:38:10 PM »

Quote from: wtxbadger on March 12, 2010, 03:31:15 PM

I always wondered if there were any bolt action 45-70's manufactured?

The Remmy Keene was a factory built rifle for the 45-70. (Old and scarce) I've got 3 Siamese Mausers and like them alot.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #22 on:** March 23, 2013, 02:41:48 PM »

Risking another resurrection here......
I have a Siamese Mauser conversion now, and a pretty decent 10 1/2ish# sporter it is. Nice spread for me now between the 1884 SF trapdoor, the H&R UH and this. Likely all I will shoot is cast bullets.
Any of you guys still shooting yours?

JimP. · « **Reply #23 on:** March 26, 2013, 12:05:38 PM »

I have a Santa Barbara Magnum mauser chambered in 450 Marlin which will do the same thing the Siamese mausers in 45/70 will. Rifle will shoot 515 gr Nei rounded flatpoints to 1850 fps easily and smack the crap out of anything you shoot it with...very effective round....JimP.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #24 on:** March 26, 2013, 12:25:39 PM »

I loaded up some hardcast Penn 500 cast bullets at about 1500fps and blew off my heavy swinging gong at 50yd offhand with the first shot; broke the rod below the weld, guess my welding is OK. My swingers have taken my standard BP equiv. 45-70 loads just fine in the past (340 and 405 gr. over 100% loads of Trail Boss as per Hodgdon)
The gun feels good at that level, takes the recoil straight back into the Pachmayr pad & me. BTW, that load is an equiv. to the old Sharps 45-120-500 BP load so it should do the job.
Took it apart today and it is all nicely epoxy bedded with sound recoil lug contact, though no throughbolt, so I should probably not try 458WinMag loads.
Yet.

LONGTOM · « **Reply #25 on:** March 27, 2013, 06:46:20 PM »

Just as a FYI.
Winchester did make 1 model 70 chambered for the 45/70.
One day there WILL BE ANOTHER !!!

LONGTOM

gcrank1 · « **Reply #26 on:** March 28, 2013, 03:47:14 AM »

Were I doing a build today I think I'd go for the long Savage action, barrel of choice, chambered to 450 Marlin and the large bolt face. Stick it in a heavy laminate stock, Savage or custom and a DELUXE recoil pad and a longish eye relief scope, if scoped it will be.
Same to better performance, no feed problems, easy and affordable build for the average enthusiast.
But then it wouldnt fit here 'cause it wouldnt be a 45-70.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #27 on:** March 28, 2013, 04:48:43 PM »

Quote from: gcrank1 on March 28, 2013, 03:47:14 AM

Were I doing a build today I think I'd go for the long Savage action, barrel of choice, chambered to 450 Marlin and the large bolt face. Stick it in a heavy laminate stock, Savage or custom and a DELUXE recoil pad and a longish eye relief scope, if scoped it will be.
Same to better performance, no feed problems, easy and affordable build for the average enthusiast.
But then it wouldnt fit here 'cause it wouldnt be a 45-70.

You may have the same problem I am having with my 45-70 with the long action. The rim pushes the nose down and makes feeding dificult with a long mag box. If you are going ot do a long action I would suggest making it a 458WM and just down loading to 450 standards or lighter. I am thinking I should rechamber mine to 45-90 and see if that longer case fixs the feed problems.
As I stated above I would have bought a 98 action to build a 450Marlin if I had waited two years.

gcrank1 · « **Reply #28 on:** March 29, 2013, 09:26:26 AM »

I dont have any nose down issue, does yours have the right carrier/lifter plate?
With the long 500gr. Penn RN it is almost the same length as my vintage sample 45-90 and feeds quite well. The shorter 405 FN Lee has issues as the flat wants to hang up.......as does anything lighter. I like the 300-340 gr. Express loads but they have no reliable feeding (and I do not need it, though would like it). Its a long reach into that chamber and a fat RN really helps! (BTW, my 45-90 wont fully chamber even though mine is throated for (at least) 500's; the throat is a properly done reduced dia. from case mouth dia.)
I have been messing about with reducing the rim dia. to really fit my bolt face with some clearance and can see that the cartridge 'lifter/carrier' needs some mods to keep the nose from kicking to the right (the extractor claw only holds on the right). Of course this is needed only for the last shot in the mag well; as is the first and second rounds feed nicely if the RN and the last is iffy.
There certainly is more to making the Siamese Mauser work as a 45-70 than one initially may think, thats for sure!

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #29 on:** March 29, 2013, 06:42:52 PM »

Quote from: gcrank1 on March 29, 2013, 09:26:26 AM

I dont have any nose down issue, does yours have the right carrier/lifter plate? Not sure, but Iwas talking about your long action and the 450 Marlin and said rim rathenr than belt. and no I do not think mine has the right mag plate. The guy that built mine died shortly after building mine so I can not take it back to him now that it has a stock and make him fix it. At one point I was thinking of having it redone in 348 Win.
With the long 500gr. Penn RN it is almost the same length as my vintage sample 45-90 and feeds quite well. The shorter 405 FN Lee has issues as the flat wants to hang up.......as does anything lighter. I like the 300-340 gr. Express loads but they have no reliable feeding (and I do not need it, though would like it). Its a long reach into that chamber and a fat RN really helps! (BTW, my 45-90 wont fully chamber even though mine is throated for (at least) 500's; the throat is a properly done reduced dia. from case mouth dia.)
I have been messing about with reducing the rim dia. to really fit my bolt face with some clearance and can see that the cartridge 'lifter/carrier' needs some mods to keep the nose from kicking to the right (the extractor claw only holds on the right). Of course this is needed only for the last shot in the mag well; as is the first and second rounds feed nicely if the RN and the last is iffy.
There certainly is more to making the Siamese Mauser work as a 45-70 than one initially may think, thats for sure! Yep! Not for the impatient. Mine kind of feeds the Hornady soft pointed bullets.