Bolt Action (only) 45-70's Stand up and be counted

[gcrank1]

Ive read online that finding the real Siamese Mauser mag plate is nigh onto impossible, yet good things can still happen! You certainly have more experience with these ; I am also not sure mine is the right one either.
Regarding my Savage notion, perhaps the standard action would be a better bet for the 450M? I dont need the extra case capacity of the 458WM, full on 450M loads would likely be more than enough for my pain tolerance.  Im just trying to really define this idea in case something 'falls in my lap'.

[mcwoodduck]

Ive read online that finding the real Siamese Mauser mag plate is nigh onto impossible, yet good things can still happen! You certainly have more experience with these ; I am also not sure mine is the right one either.
Regarding my Savage notion, perhaps the standard action would be a better bet for the 450M? I dont need the extra case capacity of the 458WM, full on 450M loads would likely be more than enough for my pain tolerance.  Im just trying to really define this idea in case something 'falls in my lap'.

If 450 is too much for you then why have a bolt action 45-70?  the whole idea is to wring out the potentioal of the 45-70 and up the speed past what the older trapdoor and leveractions cna handle. 

[StrawHat]

... why have a bolt action 45-70?  the whole idea is to wring out the potentioal of the 45-70 and up the speed past what the older trapdoor and leveractions cna handle...

I have no problem with the original ballistics.  Once you are loading fast enough to completely penetrate the game animal more velocity doesn't really give you anything but more recoil.  I like the idea of a bolt action repeater for the 45-70.

[gcrank1]

'Cause I like big,fat bullets and cartridges that I can load down as well as up to potential. I shoot 44Spl. equiv. loads in my 44Mag most of the time for the same reason (and the gun will last about forever). A 454 Casull or the 460 would really do all I 'need' to do, but who makes rifles for them or in the flavors I want? Mostly my softish cast bullets limit my achievable velo's to sensible, and my felt recoil the rest of the way. Thumpers are cool  .
There's a lot Ive got that by someone else's estimation is too much for me, but Ive got it, whether I 'punch it' or not. 

[mcwoodduck]

... why have a bolt action 45-70?  the whole idea is to wring out the potentioal of the 45-70 and up the speed past what the older trapdoor and leveractions cna handle...

I have no problem with the original ballistics.  Once you are loading fast enough to completely penetrate the game animal more velocity doesn't really give you anything but more recoil.  I like the idea of a bolt action repeater for the 45-70.

I didn't say you couldn't shoot the lesser loads in the rifle I was just saying that there are other  easier launchers to shoot the same thing.  Why buy a new 357 when you have a 38 and it is all you want to shoot. 

[Dresden]

I see the 45-70 hard cast bullet misunderstanding has surfaced again, Mr. Garrett has done nothing but apply information already in existence.


The determining issue of bullet penetration is sectional density, with enough energy to do the job required , and stout bullet construction.


 Rifles designed to a specific task were the [size=78%] 6.5 Japanese, 6.5 Swede, 6.5 Carcano, 7mm Mauser, 8mm Mauser, all Military rifles shooting long round nose bullets designed to shoot through trench parapets, or sandbags.[/size]

A 45-70 shooting a long heavy solid bullet will also penetrate  quite well given a sectional density in the 300 plus range. Velocity increases energy, or the ability to do work and have a flatter trajectory.


I find it hard to believe a [size=78%]quality solid from Barnes, Woodleigh, or Hornady would be inferior to a cast bullet. A Hornady DGX bullet would work well if sufficient energy is available for the expanding bullet to keep penetrating.[/size]

I shoot a 416 Rigby caliber rifle, the 400 gn , 416 solids I use have a sectional density of 330, 2370 fps, 4900 ft/lb [size=78%]energy.[/size]

[size=78%]I can easily load down to any energy of a 45-70 still using a 400 gn bullet with a sd of 330, supposedly this would give me superior performance.[/size]

[size=78%] A 405 gn 458 has a sectional density of 276 and hardly can reach 2370 fps except in some rifles, certainly not in a lever gun,and should not penetrate better than my 416 when both are shooting 400 gn bullets.


Most big game stopping rifles shoot 500 gn bullets, STOPPING RIFLES are for stopping charges of wounded big game.[/size]


I read the exploits of Mr. Lupo in an article, he shot a Leopard at 9 inches, all of his game was shot very close
I have great respect for his marksmanship and raw courage and dumb luck.


To return to the original question of Grizzly bears, a friend of mine stopped a charging grizzly on two occasions in Alaska, both times he used 10% Capsicum Pepper spray, both bears dropped. A Grizzly's nose is 600 times more sensitive than a dogs, the spray works very well.

[mcwoodduck]

Dresden,
I think there is a misunderstanding.  A 45-70 hot loaded to take advantage of the 98 Siamese action is one thing.  The 45-70 can be loaded up to the bottom end of the 458 Win Mag loads. 
The 416 Rigby, the 458 WM, the 400 Jeferys, and the other 400 to 450 dangerous game rounds of the turn of last century and the modern takes on them in short action for m like the 416 Ruger are just that, Dangerous game rifles designed for African game like Elephant, Cape Buffalo, Rhino, and Hippo where penetration of heavy muscle, dense bone, and layers of fat need to be penetrated to get to the vitals and kill the game. 
Saying a 400 grain 416 solid is the same as a 405 grain 458 caliber cast is not comparing anything similar other than both are bullets.  The solids would sail right through heavy steel plate that the cast bullets would not  even dent at the same speeds.  I was suprised at what the differnce impacts of different bullet designs would make with the same weight and speeds.
I mean it is like comparing a car from the dealership to a similar model racing in Nascar.  Yes both are cars. 
Most of us want a little more speed out of our 45-70 for longer distances with out thinking about hold over.  We also want the faster bullets for larger game in heavy woods.  I am a big fan of large heavy bullet in the woods. 

[Dresden]

mcwoodchuck,


Interesting comments, however look at the issue this way, compare trying to push a nail and a bearing ball into a ham using your finger, both being of equal weight.


An increase in diameter of bore can make your bullet more like the ball. Mr. Garrett has shown the old British rule for penetration , Heavy for caliber bullets at moderate velocities, is quite valid.


I think it's great there is a rebirth of interest in this caliber, I am pro hunting and shooting, if a 45-70 shooter needs heavy penetration from his gun, then use quality bullets, like solids, and heavy weight like 500 grains.


I just comment on this because I see to many people thinking this makes a 45-70 equal to a 458 Winchester
or similar large calibers.


I suggest looking at the Beartooth bullets sight for information


Dresden

[gcrank1]

Dresden, I am glad to see you reference the 'old British rule' that Garret seems to subscribe to. I have a wonderful article on the vintage big BP and Nitro for Black cartidges and have compared my musings to those bullets and velocities cited. Some comparable loads in my 45-70 with smokeless are achieveable and still as effective, here or in the game fields they were originally intended for.
Our Wisconsin Whitetails and Black Bear are no contest for even the std. 45-70, so 'overkill' is apt.
Were I lucky enough to win the lottery, and or a fully expense paid hunt to Africa, Im sure a 375 Ruger or H&H and perhaps a .458WM on a similar platform and trialed until proven utterly reliable would accompany me.

[AkMike1]

Were I lucky enough to win the lottery, and or a fully expense paid hunt to Africa, Im sure a 375 Ruger or H&H and a .458WM on similar platforms and trialed until proven utterly reliable would accompany me.

Santa and the Tooth fairy both promised me a trip like this in 2014 or 2015. But I'll bring my 450 NE or my 577/500 3 1/8"Mag. double barrels.

[mcwoodduck]

Dresden,
what I was saying was you are comparing completly different things.
9mm and 38Special can be hot loaded and can be heavy loaded, to the bottom end of 357 mag, but they can never be a 357mag with fast and heavy loads. 
45-70 is the same way, while it cna reach the bottom end of the 458 win mag and using heavier projectiles will get you further into an animal, 45-70 will never be what 458 Win Mag is.  And 458 Win mag was designed to compete with the 416 Rigby or the 470NE but it too is a comprimise of action and power.  The 458 was made to make use of the belted short mag and the standard 30-06 length action. 
I guess it would be better to say that loading 38 Special hot trying to make it a 357 mag when 357 mag was mag to almost reach the 357 MAX levels. 
And yes we see the Brits tryingto make huge heavy and slow work. 

[Dresden]

The 458 Winchester was designed by people who did not do their homework, and like the 223 Stoner it eventually was fixed.
The 458 caliber guns can do well if they shoot the correct bullets, at brush range [size=78%]a properly loaded 45-70 will perform well.[/size]
[size=78%]I have read to many postings elsewhere of the 45-70 Mauser shooters [/size]belittling[size=78%] real express and dangerous game rifles, and there are the 45-70 contender shooters thinking they should hunt Cape Buffalo with their pistol.[/size]
[size=78%]Then there is the "Only action length is a 30-06" crowd that thinks we have such a shortage of 4140 and 4340 steel that  magnum actions are a waste of metal. [/size]
[size=78%]Ruger at least got it right and didn't add a belt to their 416.[/size]
[size=78%]Oh well, the topic was nice, pick good stout bullets for penetration, keep those 45-70 pumping out the lead.[/size]

[size=78%]Dresden[/size]

[gcrank1]

'Oh well, the topic was nice'
Thats just it, isnt it? The topic is: Bolt Action (only) 45-70's Stand up and be counted
For some reason, in spite of a topic being quite clear, things often seem to take a turn........
Now I do like the tangent information, it is a bit like sitting around the den or campfire and having a spirited discussion with friends after a good day afield. Information is good, opinions and preferences are, well, still opinions and preferences.
I can tell you are experienced and knowledgeable, but ........this last list of (mostly) shortcomings of guns/cartridges other than (may I assume) your 416 introduces far too many rabbit trails for our topic, doesnt it?

[JimP.]

Loading the 45-70 with 500 gr bullets and shooting them in a bolt action rifle has some interesting ballistics. The 500 gr bullet being a round nose bullet has a BC of .337....not too bad....pushing it at 1850 fps and sighting it in for a 150 yard zero, taking into consideration a scope mounted 1.5 inches above the bore will  not make it a long range cartridge but a very effective one inside 200 yds. The numbers are, at 100 yds the bullet will be 2.62 inches above the line of sight (LOS), dead on at 150 yds and 6.27 inches low at 200 yds. Still good enough for elk, deer or bear hunting staying within 200 yds. The ballistics will change greatly for velocities slower than 1850 fps and will improve only slightly over 1850 fps. Playing around with the zero can extend the range giving the kill zone for the animals you are seeking. Using a 10 inch kill zone, (5 inches above LOS and 5 inches below LOS). Assuming the same velocity, scope height 1.5 inches above the bore, the numbers still don't improve greatly. At 100 yds, sighting in 5.1 inches high will give a 190 yard zero. At 200 yds the bullet will be 1.32 inches low and at 225 yds will be 5.35 inches low. Not a big difference in point blank range, an extra 25 yds. Interesting data, I personally use 4.0 inches above LOS at 100 yds for sighting in my rifle, and limit my range to 200 yds. Have fun and be safe. JimP.