Hodgdon Loading Data for 1895

[Danny Boy]

According to Hodgdon Manual 2003 loading data for 45-70 Marlin 1895 with H4198 and 300 gr bullets:

Starting: 55 gr at 2221 fps
max: 60 gr at 2424 fps

My test results from a week ago:

The first batch consists of a mixed of 12 shots from 52.0 gr to 53.0 gr of H4198. The chrono registered readings from 2448 to 2585 PFS with most of them in the upper 2400 PFS.

The second batch:
53.5 gr >>>> 2581, 2591, 2513, 2523 PFS
53.7 gr >>>> 2529, 2549, 2579, 2522 PFS

I don’t have the guts to go beyond that level. And I am glad that I chrono the shots to know the speed. With these results I don’t think there is any room or needs to load beyond 53.7 gr. The matter of fact, I am stepping back to try 50 to 52 gr this coming weekend.

I wonder if Hodgdon have made an error in their manual (staring with 55 to max 60 gr)? Does anyone have any experience with H4198 and 300 gr bullets?     :?  :?  :?

Danny Boy

[jackfish]

Why when you saw velocities over 2424 fps did you continue shooting higher charged loads?  I thought a basic tenet of reloading was do not exceed either the maximum charge or maximum velocity of a published load.  Also, did you substitute any components?  The Hodgdon load calls for a 300 grain Sierra hollow point seated to 2.525", Winchester brass and CCI 200 primers.  When substituting components of a published load one should reduce the STARTING load 8 percent and work up carefully toward the maximum charge watching for signs of excessive pressure or velocity.  Lastly, there may be something wrong with your chronograph.  If its a Shooting Chrony make sure it is opened up all the way and make sure it is far enough away from the muzzle, you can always correct velocities to the muzzle.

[Danny Boy]

Jack:

I used the CCI 250 instead of the CCI 200 standards primer. I stepped back 6% from the recommended starting load of 55 gr.

I should have stepped back once I reached the max speed. Thanks for pointing that out. The chrony may not have been fully extended as you  pointed out.  I will try some 50-52 gr loads to-morrow if it doesn't rain.

Thanks for your advise!

Danny Boy

[Rigby275]

Hi Danny Boy -

With due respect to Jackfish's comments, I've been reloading for over 40 years & never damaged a gun w/high pressure loads (I have BLOWN one up, but w/the wrong powder & lack of attention, NOT high pressure loading). :oops:
So, NOT TO SAY ONE CAN'T - there's high pressure & there's excessive pressure.

My point is that , watching for the standard signs of head expansion, primer flattening, sticky extraction, etc., WHATEVER PRESSURE your loads generate that don't overstep THOSE BOUNDS is SAFE IN YOUR GUN!!
Individual guns of a type don't vary much in pressure handling ability, and SAMMI specs are intended to be SAFE in any gun in good condition, but they're NOT necessarily ultimate loads!

Questions of "Why 'overload'?" aside, if you want all you can safely get (for whatever reasons please you),  don't be afraid to find what YOUR GUN can do for you.

Simply use proper caution in evaluating the results of your testing. :wink:

Regards,

[Danny Boy]

Terry:

Jackfish's advice is highly valued. I am new to reloading since January and I am learning.

I rely on the reloading manuals that I have and have been watching the pressure signs. Now I will pay more attention to the chrono and will stop when I reach the max velocity.

With the 45-70 load, I am happy with 52 gr of H4198 producing 2,300fps that gives me 1.5" grouping.

Danny Boy

[jackfish]

My point is that , watching for the standard signs of head expansion, primer flattening, sticky extraction, etc., WHATEVER PRESSURE your loads generate that don't overstep THOSE BOUNDS is SAFE IN YOUR GUN!!

I respect anyone who has been reloading for over 40 years, however the above statement shows a lack of understanding of the limitations of the Marlin 1895 45-70, a rear-lockup rifle where many of the "classic" signs of excessive pressure are often not evident until one is over its safe operating pressure.  It also shows no knowledge that case head expansion or pressure ring expansion measurements are unreliable, no matter the platform.  I believe published loads, a chronograph and following accepted reloading practice are indispensable.  Velocity is the best indicator of excessive pressure one has for the Marlin 1895 short of a strain gauge.  He violated two basic tenets of accepted reloading practice, exceeding a published maximum velocity and not accommodating changed components, and I just pointed that out to him.  We are also not talking about SAAMI pressure specification loads for the 45-70 (28,000 CUP), we are talking about the safe operating pressure of the Marlin 1895 45-70 (40,000 CUP).

[Camp Cook]

I totally agree with Jackfish..... I am very careful when loading my Marlin 1895GS 45-70. I do not get any pressure signs with my loads when I have reached the velocities that are considered safe in this rifle. So I do not look for standard pressure signs.
Cam

[jackfish]

Camp Cook, I still watch for them, I just don't rely on them in that if they are not apparent everything is OK.

[dla]

Just something to ponder: Why?

Why maximum velocity? Is the 300gr bullet inferior at 2100fps? What is the advantage gained by pushing a given bullet to the hairy limits?

Just as people get suckered into buying premium bullets for non-demanding cartridges such as the 30-30 or the 45-70, reloaders get suckered into pushing a cartridge for rapidly diminishing returns.

[Mac11700]

Just as people get suckered into buying premium bullets for non-demanding cartridges such as the 30-30 or the 45-70, reloaders get suckered into pushing a cartridge for rapidly diminishing returns.

Man...DLA...I thought you would have been off this kick by now...If folks want to use a better bullet...why do you feel they got suckerd into it...I know the difference in performance between premium bullets and cheap plinking bullets...and so do the folks that use them and so do the  manufactures...look at all the cheaper priced bullets we now have as compared to just 3 years ago, that's.because quite a few folks started shooting the premium ones and leaving the others on the shelves...that makes the prices come down when the demand isn't as high...and just look at the prices of the Hot-cores and the Interbonds.....       Now they  are falling in price...even you favourite Remmingtons have come down a few bucks a hundred...       at least around here they have   ( and that to me is a good thing...I like to shoot both)...so quite complaning...if folks feel the need to use them...more power to them(and me) :wink:...... ...and as far a pushing the velocity..........why not...we all don't "HAVE" to drive in the slow lane all the time...just when we " WANT TO ".....and there isn't any wrong with a man knowing his and his rifles limitations.....

Mac

[papajohn428]

Reloading is a game of controlling all the variables, but some are out of our control.  I learned the hard way that every time I buy a new batch of powder, I have to work the load up all over again.  Got a hot batch of 2400 years ago and nearly wrecked a sturdy S&W before I started paying attention to the sticky extraction and horrendous blast.  Blue Dot data has also proven too hot, I bought one container of it, got within two grains of the listed max charge, and quit before I experienced a kaboom.  Powder lots DO vary, and it's up to you to monitor your loads.  

My main quest is accuracy, and as long as that's good, I could care less what velocity I'm getting.  Most of my guns like loads about 8% below max, which is fine by me.  Overpressure loads are hard on the brass, the gun, and the shooter.  And I don't need to be abused.  I have women for that!

Papajohn the Fragile Old Phart