Author Topic: scopes dots and iron sights (Read 1435 times)

CASE · « **on:** July 29, 2004, 06:13:56 PM »

well here here goes .... ive shot iron sights on my 44.s for years on end , guess im getting older... so now im thinkng of shooting with scopes or red dot sights on my revolvers .. so ive shot many.ofgame opensighs out to 100yds qestion is , when usining a scope or red dot sight. do i concentrate on the cross hairs or the red dot or on the target self? i know with iron sights you focous on the front sight but wat about scopes and red dot sights ,,,,,,,, help!! :-D [/b]

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #1 on:** July 30, 2004, 12:12:13 AM »

In my opinion, a red dot is extremely easy. I put the dot where I want the bullet to go. You can see your game and the red dot at the same time without having to focus on one or the other. With a scope you first focus on the game then the cross hairs. Also I find it much easier for target acquisition with a red dot.

S.B. · « **Reply #2 on:** July 30, 2004, 04:57:06 AM »

What Redawk 1 says is true but, correct method is to focus on the reticle or sight(whatever it mey be) not on the target. With a scope or red dot scope, the entire picture will be much clearer than with iron sights. I'm in the same situation as you are and have just put a Ultra Dot 4 Dot on my 629 Classic, not so much for the focus but, to better see the sights at early or late light conditions(when most deer are seen, at least in my case). Also, this practice doesn't alow one to develope bad habits if you are going from iron to scope or the other way around. Hope this helps.

cbagman · « **Reply #3 on:** August 03, 2004, 04:58:26 PM »

Quote from: CASE

well here here goes .... ive shot iron sights on my 44.s for years on end , guess im getting older... so now im thinkng of shooting with scopes or red dot sights on my revolvers .. so ive shot many.ofgame opensighs out to 100yds qestion is , when usining a scope or red dot sight. do i concentrate on the cross hairs or the red dot or on the target self? i know with iron sights you focous on the front sight but wat about scopes and red dot sights ,,,,,,,, help!! :-D [/b]

:grin:
:grin: I like a red dot scope. I am using a Millet variable dot size 30 mm tube on a S&W Classic .44 mag with a 6.5 in barrel. It is accurate and you keep both eyes open and put the dot on the target centered in the tube. It is a big help for my old peepers..Much quicker than open sights. cbagman :-)

barber · « **Reply #4 on:** August 04, 2004, 05:07:33 AM »

Is a red dot sight a holo sight, or are they different, and if they are different. how so? thanks

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #5 on:** August 04, 2004, 07:15:02 AM »

Quote from: barber

Is a red dot sight a holo sight, or are they different, and if they are different. how so? thanks

They are close except in design. (Look) Both project the image of the dot.

Gregory · « **Reply #6 on:** August 04, 2004, 07:16:00 AM »

Quote from: CASE

well here here goes .... i know with iron sights you focous on the front sight but wat about scopes and red dot sights ,,,,,,,, help!! :-D [/b]

That's the advantage of the scope and dot sights, both the target and the reticle or dot are in focus together.

Rmouleart · « **Reply #7 on:** August 04, 2004, 07:24:21 AM »

This is not to be a flame on Reddots, I personally have owned many types of handgun scopes/reddots, in saying this, I have found for the seasoned Bigbore handgunner, the scope is the best option using amber cross hairs, good for low light levels, but remember very low magnification, good bell, they seem to be more hearty, can take heavy recoil well, now I'm talking high recoil revolver scopes, they must state this in the manual.,or else you will be dropping cross hairs, all kids of good stuff. Using Reddots, reddots are good for a still stalk method and a baited situation, they come up nice and you can lock in that dot quick on your animal, but the weakness of the reddots are, they are relying on batteries, I know they have backups and all, but when something can go wrong it will, and it has

so now you pull up to scope your game animal and there is no dot nothing ,just a clear glass,and the shot is at your max limit,what are you going to do holmes, maybe if they also had crosshairs as a backup, I might be interested, also when testing my 44mag/454casull I notice there are far and few between that can take the heavy recoil without loosing zero, maybe in the last three years the dot corps have some how made there dots to take the recoil of a heavy revolvers, this is just what I have encountered using reddots type scopes, I have had no problems using scopes on my revolvers, I like the elite bushnell type, when I first started I realized that you have to practice bringing up the scope and lock in, to get a clear picture, at first when I was looking through the scope I was getting half moons, but this was do to my hand was cocked not straight, once I could see what I was doing made the proper adjustments, once you practice bring up the scope and find you right grip and point of aim, you be ready to shoot much better than open sights, but one thing not mentioned is you can really see how much you are moving, this lets you know you have to lock in tighter and get more stable. Shooting sticks work well for stability or anything you can stabilize ageist will work better than just standing free, when standing free hands, I lock my left elbow to my chest for support. Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

S.B. · « **Reply #8 on:** August 04, 2004, 08:51:30 AM »

Ramouleart, What brand of red dot scopes are you refering to when you said the battery keeps going dead? Do you change them out(batteries) at the begining of every hunting season? If they are losing zero, isn't that a mount problem-not the scopes fault? I've had expensive rifle telescopes lose the cross hairs also. As far as not being able to handle heavy recoil, if you have a top quality outfit, I dought that the recoil would affect them at all, most are rated(in todays world) to take the worst recoil out there. Don't dought your words but, maybe you've had a bad one and all manufactures experience this from time to time. Did you try to talk to them about their warranty? If so did they replace or repair your stuff?

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 04, 2004, 09:56:53 AM »

Ramouleart, I have been using red dot sights for several years now. "Never" have I had one go bad. :-D I have 2 Tasco PDP3 30mm, a Millet, and an Ultra dot. I have had Aim point and Bushnells Holo sight as well. I have well over 600 rounds of full heave loaded 500MAG rounds through my BFR500MAG with the Ultra Dot on it and never lost zero or had one problem. I use the Tasco PDP3 on my 44 MAG with over 1000 rounds fired and still no problem there either. In my opinion Red Dots have there place in Handgun hunting and shooting.

Jim n Iowa · « **Reply #10 on:** August 04, 2004, 11:39:08 AM »

I just bought a RedHawk scope model, this comes with 20mm rings. I wanted to put my Red dot on it, as I have a Nikon 2x mounted on a SBH. I had to order 30mm Ruger rings. The Reddot will not fit between the rings. I have not found any 30mm pistol scopes to use. The SBH has Square d rings and mount, and 30mm are on order from Midway. An expensive lesson learned. Put the Reddot on the SBH and the Nikon on the Redhawk. Would like to see a bigger picture like the Bushnell offers.
Jim

Jerry · « **Reply #11 on:** August 04, 2004, 06:51:58 PM »

Red-dots are the way to go, I've used scopes by Nikon, Burris, Leupold, and Redfield, they are all good, but for older and any eyes the red-dot can't be beat.

The only time I've had a battery go out, was when I put the gun in the safe and left it on. I change batteries at the beginning of every deer season and have never had one fail. I took an Ultra-Dot off one of my .44's and have used it on my 500 S&W Mag. for over a year now and have had no problems with it. Both eyes open, put the dot on your target and squeeze her off. I took two deer in Ohio last year with my 500 and the Ultra-Dot.

Rmouleart · « **Reply #12 on:** August 05, 2004, 03:27:08 AM »

Nothing wrong with the way I mount my scopes, they are always locked down properly and don't move,marked with nail polish to be sure. Maybe I can put this in a different way, I'm using the 454 Casull now for a while, the recoil is incredible, but I can maintain a good hold and aim to control top end loads for the casull in a hunting situation, In saying this, there is few scopes or even reddots that can take the abuse of the casull, a matter of fact I called a few corps, and they would not guarantee that the scope or redot type scope would hold zero, but they would refund if not, and they have. Guys I been a seasoned hunter for 25 years and have bought every thing under the sun to improve my hunting skills, in doing so I have found that(Battery's) are not reliable at all for the most part...The recoil of the casull is much more than the 500S&W even 400gr bullets, I bought mono grips for the revolver, this helps me but not whats on top. So far the top end Bushnell scope has worked fine and maintained zero. At one time I owned three RedDot scopes, two were for rifles and one for handgun, One of the rifle reddots the knob fell off, then the lens in the front came loose, got rid of it, the other had no magnification just a dot, didn't give me much more than my own eyes with open sights, one thing I noticed is you really can't see your waiver like you can with crosshairs. Its all preference, but I like simple, less moving parts, NO battery's

also I prefer a fixed scope for a revolver,, like I said no moving parts, I'm not going to be shooting over 100 yards no need. Remember I'm old school, set in my ways, they seem to work, no need to change. I like to end this with saying I like the attributes the reddots have produce in the field, quick acquisition, easy focus, I understand these are very good attributes, I can't let my self trust batteries. Very cold temps have weird effects on batteries, I have hunted very cold climates in the past, Last year hunted in ten below zero for german boar in Upstate NY, my digital camera would not work froze all the gears;) Yes you can carry all the backup battery's you want, but when you pull up to aim on a animal and there is no dot, what are you going to do, take a minuet to change your battery's, bye then you game is gone out of sight, this happened to my good old father once using my RedDot, yes he left it on, When it came time to aim he had no dot to sight on his game. He let the buck go. Maybe I have got a bad taste in my mouth when it comes to RedDots, bye the way the they were the original redot corp I bought those reddots. I guess this was ten years ago, so maybe they have ironed out the flaws, One of the dots had replaceable lenses that were colored. Neat idea just did not hold up. All my rifles have scopes as well. I guess I'm a good old scope man;) Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #13 on:** August 05, 2004, 04:15:19 AM »

Rmouleart, I do not know what 454 Casull you were shooting, but I have a Super Redhawk 454 Casull and it does not recoil near as much as my BFR 500MAG. I shoot both of these guns side be side, so I know from experience, with the difference in recoil is. Also I did not mention I have a Ultra Dot on my 454 casull and I don't loose zero. Red-dots have come a long was from 10 years ago.

Rmouleart · « **Reply #14 on:** August 05, 2004, 05:09:19 AM »

Read your recoil charts, there is almost nothing that can recoil like the 454 Casull, even the magnum research 450 marlin has less recoil using a 350gr bullet, here is some food for thought.

BFR .450 Marlin, 10-Inch
4.5 lbs.
350-gr. Bullet
1814 FPS
109.04 Recoil Factor

BFR .45/70, 7.5-Inch
4.4 lbs.
300-gr. Bullet
1472 FPS
74.1 Recoil Factor

BFR .480, 7.5-Inch
3.75 lbs.
325-gr. Bullet
1409 FPS
81.44 Recoil Factor

Redhawk .480, 7.5-Inch
3.3 lbs.
325-gr. Bullet
1409 FPS
92.55 Recoil Factor

Redhawk .454, 7.5-Inch
3.3 lbs.
300-gr. Bullet
1600 FPS
115.15 Recoil Factor

Freedom Arms .454, 7.5-Inch
3.25 lbs.
300-gr. Bullet
1600 FPS
116.92 Recoil Factor

Super Blackhawk .44, 8-Inch
2.9 lbs.
240-gr. Bullet
1400 FPS
98.96 Recoil Factor
I'm not making this stuff up it is fact, I own the SRH 7 1/2 inch.
The reality is the Casull has the worse recoil under normal conditions, in tern more felt recoil to your scope/Reddot. Understand this I do a lot more shooting than the average joe, I shoot over 1,000 rounds a year in my 454 Casull. Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #15 on:** August 05, 2004, 06:44:58 AM »

Rmouleart, I don't need to read about recoil, I experience it first hand. And believe me my reloaded 500MAG's recoil a lot more than my 454 Casull reloads. Also I did not see you list a recoil factor for the 500MAG.
I don't doubt that you shoot a lot, but have you ever shot a 500MAG? If not I suggest you do. Then come back and tell me the same think.

I also shoot big bore handguns on a weekly bases. Matter of fact, I just got back from the range shooting both my 454 Casull with 300 gr. full loaded rounds and my BFR 500MAG with 575 gr. full loads. I even had the range offical shoot them both, and he handed me back my BFR 500MAG after 2 rounds and said it was to much for him. :-D

Rmouleart · « **Reply #16 on:** August 05, 2004, 08:05:01 AM »

Yes I have shot the 500 S&W many times factory&reloads thats why I said it don't recoil like the 454 Casull, The pressure differences are much different, I guess you have not been reading the articles about the 500, it is well know that the recoil value is much lower than the 454 Casull,much more manageable, I have shot both at the range, My best friend has one and goes with me all the time, and my 300gr XTP on top of 30gr W296, has much greater recoil, than my buddies with his 400gr bullet hot loaded, I reload all my my own guns, been reloading for twenty years, I know my stuff, My life revolves around shooting & hunting, I spend many days at the range either working loads or shooting. I only work four days a week at my buisness, spend the rest hunting and shooting. again look at the recoil factor and understand they are real, I bet you never thought the recoil factor of a 450 Marlin would be less than a 454 Casull even using a larger bullet. . I gave you facts, I guess it was hard for you to swallow. I just tell things the way they are and the way I see them, using facts to back me up. . Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

Recoil factor for the 500S&W using a 300gr bullet 32gr powder at 5 pounds= 25 foot pounds, recoil velocity 18 fps

recoil factor for the 454 Casull using 300gr bullet 30gr powder at 52 oz
=43 foot pounds, recoil velocity 33 fps

P.S. read this article maybe this will enlighten your thoughts. They talk about how much better the 500 S&W is over the 454 casull & 458 lot concerning recoil and barrel flip. due to its large frame and lower CUP

http://popularmechanics.com/outdoors/firearms/2003/9/top_gun/print.phtml

S.B. · « **Reply #17 on:** August 05, 2004, 10:12:11 AM »

Rmouleart, the origial poster mentions using a red dot or scope on a .44 mag. not a Casull. And neither does he mention the type of torture testing that you evidently do with your wrist and handguns. I may be wrong but, sounds to me like he is getting older(just like me) and doesn't want to give up a sport he loves(hunting). Don't dought your words for a minute about the recoil.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #18 on:** August 05, 2004, 11:24:33 AM »

Quote from: Rmouleart

Yes I have shot the 500 S&W many times factory&reloads thats why I said it don't recoil like the 454 Casull, The pressure differences are much different, I guess you have not been reading the articles about the 500, it is well know that the recoil value is much lower than the 454 Casull,much more manageable, I have shot both at the range, My best friend has one and goes with me all the time, and my 300gr XTP on top of 30gr W296, has much greater recoil, than my buddies with his 400gr bullet hot loaded, I reload all my my own guns, been reloading for twenty years, I know my stuff, My life revolves around shooting & hunting, I spend many days at the range either working loads or shooting. I only work four days a week at my buisness, spend the rest hunting and shooting. again look at the recoil factor and understand they are real, I bet you never thought the recoil factor of a 450 Marlin would be less than a 454 Casull even using a larger bullet. . I gave you facts, I guess it was hard for you to swallow. I just tell things the way they are and the way I see them, using facts to back me up. . Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

Recoil factor for the 500S&W using a 300gr bullet 32gr powder at 5 pounds= 25 foot pounds, recoil velocity 18 fps

recoil factor for the 454 Casull using 300gr bullet 30gr powder at 52 oz
=43 foot pounds, recoil velocity 33 fps

P.S. read this article maybe this will enlighten your thoughts. They talk about how much better the 500 S&W is over the 454 casull & 458 lot concerning recoil and barrel flip. due to its large frame and lower CUP

http://popularmechanics.com/outdoors/firearms/2003/9/top_gun/print.phtml

Rmouleart, I do not find any thing hard to swallow! I have not just shot my friends gun. I have a BFR in 500MAG, I also had a S&W500MAG. I still Have a Ruger 454 Casull. I have been reloading for over 25 years and shooting over that. But I know the difference in felt recoil.

So you are saying a 454 Casull with a 300 gr. bullet with 30 gr. of W296 will recoil more than a 500 MAG with a 440 gr. bullet over 42 gr. of W296. I don't think so. :roll:

I see where you compared 300 gr. bullets and like powder charges for the 454 and 500MAG. The 500 with 300 gr. bullets is loaded at 37 to 42 gr. of W296 powder not 32 gr.

If you are going to make a comparison, make them with full load charges in both.

CASE, sorry to get off track in your post, But you would not have a problem with a red dot on a 44MAG. IMO

Graybeard · « **Reply #19 on:** August 05, 2004, 12:07:25 PM »

In spite of what you said if you're consistently busting scopes and red dots you're not mounting them correctly. I've been shooting scopes and the Bushnell Holosight on heavy kickers for years and have yet to have one fail me. If they aren't mounted correctly they will fail no matter the brand and if mounted right generally won't.

What kind of base and rings are you using? If not Burris Signature are you lapping the rings? Are you using alignment bars with any of the twist in type rings to assure correct alignment and then lapping? Have you tried Burris Signature rings? Scopes just don't break in them. PERIOD.

GB

psalm69 · « **Reply #20 on:** August 05, 2004, 02:21:50 PM »

How is a recoil factor derived? Is there a formula or is it some subjective measurement. Scott

psalm69 · « **Reply #21 on:** August 06, 2004, 09:44:17 AM »

Anyone?

S.B. · « **Reply #22 on:** August 06, 2004, 10:05:26 AM »

psalm69, I'm sure you can utilize the net and find a site that will give you the mathematical equation for figuring this. Most seasoned shooters tell with their hand, hard to beat this method, it's your own hand, not what someone else figured or felt.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #23 on:** August 06, 2004, 12:46:29 PM »

Quote from: psalm69

How is a recoil factor derived? Is there a formula or is it some subjective measurement. Scott

I thought Rmouleart would answer that question for you. :-) I know there is a mathematical formula, but I do not know it. I just know how both my Ruger 454 casull with full load and my 500MAG with full loads feels in my hand. And the 454 does not even come close to the 500MAG.

Rmouleart · « **Reply #24 on:** August 09, 2004, 03:39:23 AM »

Ok guys I did not say I'm busting up scopes and red dots LOL, I said that there has been failures while using scopes and red dots on heavy recoiling revolvers, one I mentioned was the 454 Casull, I know how to mount scopes well,been doing it for many years with good results, thats the bottom line;) or I would not be shooting one hole at 100 yards with my rifles, and clover leaf using my revolvers at thirty yards. I know they don't move do to I use plumbers tape and mark the rigs and scope tube with a dab of nail polish. I am using the Rugers setup, there rings. I pound the piss out of my revolvers, in tern things go wrong at times, Its the moving parts in the scopes and reddots that break loose, nothing to do with mounting.
Maybe these things are happing because of the many rounds I fire each year. Most my loads are on the hot side. On the 500 S&W felt recoil is less mostly due to the weight of that darn thing we are talking I think, 74 oz 500 S&W vs 52 oz Ruger SRH 454 casull, more weight(larger frame) less felt recoil, for the most part. You can find a recoil calculator at
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/recoil.htm
Also I did not say I have not found scopes to hold up, I have, I'm using the top of the line Bushnell now and so far no problems. Not saying I might give the reddots another try either, Like I said I just like simplicity, less moving parts and no batteries to count on. Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

Rmouleart · « **Reply #25 on:** August 09, 2004, 06:30:31 AM »

Thanks for the heads up, Maybe those darn ruger rings are not the best, I have lapped rings, and use plumbers tape as well. Don't see them move at all, I was told using those type of revolvers you need to buy high shock, heavy recoil scopes, other wise they won't hold zero. Bye the way don't pay over $400.00 for rifle scopes and over $200 for handgun scopes, just can not afford it;) my best Bushnell is a 4200/3200, and I have a few Leupold VarII that I think are good scopes, using all my other rifles and revolvers, the only one that causes problems with optics is the 454 Casull...The Bushnell I have on there now is working just fine, The scopes I had problems with in the past were simmons/tasco/weavers, I stay clear of them using heavy recoiling guns. Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #26 on:** August 09, 2004, 11:27:55 AM »

Rmouleart, I do have a lot of Leupold scopes. The reason is, I know they will fix or replace any of them that fail.

Rmouleart · « **Reply #27 on:** August 11, 2004, 06:43:58 AM »

Here is the recoil factor for a 440gr bullet 42gr powder five pound gun, velocity 1700fps =
Recoil energy of 46 foot pounds, Recoil velocity of 24 fps...

Using the 454 casull 300gr bullet 32gr powder 3 1/2 pound gun,velocity 1700fps=
Recoil energy 32 foot pounds, recoil velocity of 24 fps...

The 454 Casull using the 300gr bullet and the 500 S&W using the 440gr bullet have equal recoil factors.

Really comes down to the weight of that 500 S&W soon we will need a wheel barrel to carry the darn thing;), not something I want to have to carry all day long on my side,74 oz is a lot of gun for a handgun, a good bandito holster would come in handy in the field. I was up at Kittery Maine at the trading post looking at those 500 S&W they come in three barrel sizes, 10 inch, eight inch, and now six inch. Also checked out the Magnum Research BFR's single action big bores, noticed they have my 450 Marlin cart, well built wheelguns, weight is not as bad as the 500 S&W frame, about the same as a SRH, price was around $880.00 for the ten inch barrel. Not bad at all, I'm not a big single action guy but using a big bore 450 Marlin I would not mind owning one of those baby's;) great bear baiting wheelgun for sure. Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #28 on:** August 11, 2004, 06:54:55 AM »

Quote from: Rmouleart

Here is the recoil factor for a 440gr bullet 42gr powder five pound gun, velocity 1700fps =
Recoil energy of 46 foot pounds, Recoil velocity of 24 fps...

Using the 454 casull 300gr bullet 32gr powder 3 1/2 pound gun,velocity 1700fps=
Recoil energy 32 foot pounds, recoil velocity of 24 fps...

The 454 Casull using the 300gr bullet and the 500 S&W using the 440gr bullet have equal recoil factors.

Really comes down to the weight of that 500 S&W soon we will need a wheel barrel to carry the darn thing;), not something I want to have to carry all day long on my side,74 oz is a lot of gun for a handgun, a good bandito holster would come in handy in the field. I was up at Kittery Maine at the trading post looking at those 500 S&W they come in three barrel sizes, 10 inch, eight inch, and now six inch. Also checked out the Magnum Research BFR's single action big bores, noticed they have my 450 Marlin cart, well built wheelguns, weight is not as bad as the 500 S&W frame, about the same as a SRH, price was around $880.00 for the ten inch barrel. Not bad at all, I'm not a big single action guy but using a big bore 450 Marlin I would not mind owning one of those baby's;) great bear baiting wheelgun for sure. Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

Rmouleart, my BFR is cut down to 6 inches. I had it mag-na-ported. I need it with the 575 gr. bullets I am shooting. What a handfull. :eek:

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #29 on:** August 11, 2004, 10:24:48 AM »

Quote from: cknight98

Redhawk,

can you post some pics of your BFR .500? i'd love to see it... if you cant post them and dont mind, email them to me and i'll post them here for you...

Chris, my wife took my digital camera with her on vacation. I can not find my disk with the pics on it, so when she gets back I will e-mail you the pics.

Thanks