Author Topic: 454 Casull ,XTP Mags To Hard (Read 3600 times)

WildBill · « **on:** January 15, 2003, 01:38:12 PM »

I have been shooting 300 Grain XTP Mag. Hornady bullets at whitetail deer ,And have come to the conclusion that all the advice to use these heavier Jacketed bullets not working. Every deer I have shot just runs off with two identical bullet holes. Entrance wound is the same as exit. The good hits are trackable ,but I'm not impressed with knock down power.I am going to try some Barnes 250 X -Pistol bullets and also some 230 Gold Dot Hollow points.My hope is to deliver more of thr energy to the deer and not just blow right threw.Maybe I'm wrong but If they don't group well I'll have to scrap this Idea,and go back to the 300 Hornady, Maybe even a regular XTP. Well am I totally wrong ,and wasting my time. How about some feed back. Thanks

KING · « **Reply #1 on:** January 15, 2003, 03:45:37 PM »

Wildbill!.. I generally use a light bullet on deer. They dont require a lot of...knockdown power,being that they are thin skined,and the average whitetail chest cavity is measured in inches not feet. I stopped using heavy slugs in a handgun many years ago and found that the lighter slugs deposite the most energy into the animal. In the .44 i use a 180 grn xtp with over 23 inches of penitration on a longitudinal type shot. Thats plenty for anything of this size. On a broadwise type shot this round opens up very nicely and leaves me a good blood trail,with the animal going down generally within a few yards,if not at bullet impact. In the casull,I have some factory loads and found that the heavies do just what you were experiancing. I have some handloaded 200 gr hp( they also could be 230 grn,cause I dont have the box in front of me,and I did not reload them)..They seem to expand very well,dumping most of thier energy into the animal. The heavies in the casull seem to work a lot better if they hit some bone,such as the shoulderblades,in anchoring the animal. If not,they kinda just whistle through. If a good hit was made,it really does not matter what round the animal was hit with,it will go down with a good blood trail. I figure a .45 cal. wound is a lot bigger that some of the wonder rounds that are out there after the round has expanded.. I think that the projos that you are going to experiment with are good rounds to try and the results should be what you expect if and only if you have done your part with correct bullet placement. Sounds like a plan. Stay safe....king

BER007 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 15, 2003, 08:28:13 PM »

I WOULD TRY THE HONARDY 250 GR XTP OR THE 240 GR XTP MAG.

Daveinthebush · « **Reply #3 on:** January 16, 2003, 07:32:09 AM »

For years I tried to find the most accurate bullet for my Contender. I finally settled on the Speer 225 grain HP half jacketed. At 50 yards one day I shot a group that measured, .30. They were accurate! :agree:

I loaded them somewhere slightly below max and used them on whitetails for years. They were great on the smaller southern-tier whitetails in New York. (125-150 pounds)

I only switched to a heavier bullet when I moved north and the deer ran over 175 pound dressed! I tried a variety of bullets but never found anything that compare to the Speer 225.

No in AK, it is 300 hardcast for furry reasons.

willis5 · « **Reply #4 on:** January 16, 2003, 07:51:42 AM »

I have used Winchester Partion Gold ammo with my casull. They are 265 grn, and they seem to really put them down. I have shot 4 deer and 1 large hog with this ammo. They still go right through, but they hit hard. Just my experience.

volshooter · « **Reply #5 on:** January 16, 2003, 08:31:28 AM »

I'm using the 240gr XTP mag in my .454 and my .50 cal inline. I've only shot one deer with the .45 240gr XTP mag in the .50 cal with 80gr of Pyrodex RS. I got no bone or expansion. They may be to tough to get expansion.
Rick

1badmagnum · « **Reply #6 on:** January 16, 2003, 09:36:52 AM »

the gold dots give me the most penetration and expansion when testing on wet phone books or water filled milk jugs.I'm awaiting on a bear hunt to really give them the test.I have not used the xtp bullets,I feel comfortable with the performasnce of the gold dots between 240-325 grain.

Henry Bowman · « **Reply #7 on:** January 16, 2003, 10:25:27 AM »

The Nosler 250-260gn willdo the trick at around 2000fps.

dakotashooter2 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 16, 2003, 12:01:24 PM »

I've been using 210 grainers out of my 41 mag with excelent results. Expansion is good, weight retention runs around 90% and I usually find the slug under the skin on the opposite side. I can't tell you the velocity because I don't have a chrono but this is a near max load. Maybe these are moving to fast out of the 454. They may be designed for velocities from the 45 colt.

MS Hitman · « **Reply #9 on:** January 16, 2003, 07:08:31 PM »

Considering the 300 grain XTP-Mag was developed for the .454 Casull; I doubt it is too tough for the caliber. Personally, I am using the regular 300 grain XTP because I caught them on sale and 1600 fps is about as fast as these bullets need to be driven anyway. Both versions are designed for these velocities.

Two things you need to consider when using light bullets at high velocity are; 1) you won't get the necessary penetration on a "tough" shot, i.e. going through a hindquarter or through the pelvis to get into the body cavity, and 2) most of these bullets are not built to be driven at .454 Casull velocities. At least the velocities the Freedom Arms revolvers are capable of driving these bullets. Overdriving a bullet sets the stage for some major damage to the forcing cone as well as just being a dangerous situation. Two holes are always better than one.

This nonsense about "energy dump" is just that; nonsense. If there was anything to this, I should be able to really juice a deer up with my .300 Win or .375 H&H magnums. Why I might even be able to cause one to do cartwheels with my .458 simply by overdriving a 300 grain bullet designed for a .45-70 and increasing the kinetic energy exerted on the bullet.

Your post does not specify the location(s) of your hits on the deer. I have found from shooting many deer that hard jacketed or cast bullets actually create less damage and bloodshot meat than the more fragile ones. If you are having problems with deer running, I'd suggest you try a shot that will break the deer down structurally or where bleeding will be more pronounced.

KING · « **Reply #10 on:** January 17, 2003, 01:04:50 PM »

MS Hitman. If the rifle,and round combination does not knock you over upon detonation,it,inturn meaning the projectile,will not knock over the animal, even if 100 percent of the energy were directly deposited into the animal. I dont know to many handgun hunter,or rifleman that would attempt to go through the pelvis structure to make a chest cavity hit on an animal. A broken pelvis is sure gunna put the animal down in a hurry,but is also is going to destroy a lotta meat. I agree that a solid,and hard cast will give ya lots of penitration,but,the round still has to be placed in the correct location for it to do any good. I stopped taking shots unless the animal was broadside,slightly facing away or from me at the time I shoot. Im interested in eating as much meat as possible out of the animal. I will tell ya that the 180 grn XTP will and does a lot of meat damage. I was really suprised on one that I had shot facing toward me,and shot placement was just to his left of the brisket. That 180 grn gave me over 20 inches of penitration,and retained 95 percent of its weight,but it did destroy a lotta meat,lost the entire front shoulder and ribs on the impact side. I REEEAAALLLY LIKE BBG RIBS !!!!!!!!! STAY SAFE...KING

MS Hitman · « **Reply #11 on:** January 17, 2003, 06:22:28 PM »

Sometimes the only shot one gets is the "Texas heart shot". I have on many occassions put one thorugh the pelvis and found bullet in the chest cavity. Guess it all depends on how bad one wants to come home with meat. The 150 grain ballsitic tips from my .309 JDJ are a very adequate bullet for this job.

I have been using the 400 grain Speers in my .475 Linebaugh and have been eating right up to the hole on all the deer so far. (My friend, Larry Rogers, has been using the 325 grain XTPs with more devastating effect on deer. Although the load he's using does seem to anchor them rather quickly.) Ditto for the nearly three dozen between between the .454s and the .44s when shooting hard cast or the heavy jacketed bullets. Even the Freedom Arms bullets driven between 1800 and 2000 fps show less damage compared to the lighter bullets. I have limited experience using .357 mags on deer, but the hard cast slugs around 170 to 180 grains give the best performance.

I do prefer to use a broadside shot; but I am not too likely to pass on a good animal because of a less than perfect shot because I use heavier bullets. Increasing the kinetic energy of a bullet can not make up for a lack of penetration.

KING · « **Reply #12 on:** January 17, 2003, 08:05:50 PM »

MS Hitman. I think a lot of the heavier bullets dont perform that well(expansion) due to the lack of tissue that they have to penatrate. I think that we are using them on game that is a little on the light side for the caliber,bullet combination. I noticed the same thing with the .357...I have shot a few with factory 145 grn Winchester silver tip. I got very good penitration...again about 18 to 20 inches,and a fair amount of meat was waisted due to the tissue upset from impact. The cast have all been 158 gr,from my Lyman mold. I noticed that they did the same thing ,little tissue damage,but very good penitration The animal jumped at the hit,and went about 50 yards,and folded. What are your chrony speeds on that .309 that you are shooting? stay safe.king

MS Hitman · « **Reply #13 on:** January 18, 2003, 02:43:45 AM »

I am loading the 150 Nosler ballitic tips to 2350 fps nominally. I use IMR4350 for these loads.

Even my .454 "Africa" loads ( 260 Freedom Arms bullets) with 35.0 grains of WW296 produced less damage than secondary missiles i.e. bone fragments. The reason I use the hard and heavier bullets is for penetration. When one starts with a bullet that is nearly one half inch in diameter; how much more expansion is really needed?

KING · « **Reply #14 on:** January 18, 2003, 06:18:05 AM »

:-D :-D MS HITMAN. I have said that before. Thats kinda the impact those near 50 diameter slugs have. They are already the diameter that an expanded slug is trying to get to. If the round is placed where it is supposed to be,the job is accomplished. I shot a 5 yr old HOLSTIEN BULL,with a 300 grm solid otta a .454 casull. The penitration was more that I have seen with most rifles of a lot more speed. King

Bob Baker · « **Reply #15 on:** January 18, 2003, 07:39:10 AM »

From personal experience the 260 Nosler Partition in 454 can't be beat on deer size game. On bigger game though, be careful, it opens too quick in my experience. I took a moose once with the Partition, had a 3" entrance hole and a half inch exit hole. If it had been an angling shot or shoulder shot there is a good chance I would have lost the moose. On that size game you want penetration, not expansion.

WildBill · « **Reply #16 on:** January 18, 2003, 12:46:10 PM »

Thanks for all the info ,still gonna try some other bullets ,it is half the fun of huntin' with these things is playing with the loads. I almost think these 250 XPB bullets will perform well, I use the 300 MZ Barnes Sabots in my Knight Muzzleloader and they are awesome.I agree bullet placement is critical. One good thing about loading and trying new stuff is it keeps youinterested and more important it keeps you shooting more.This is maybe the key to having better luck in tghe field.

KING · « **Reply #17 on:** January 18, 2003, 06:11:28 PM »

Wildbill. I dont kow what I would do if a brand new firearm that I got would shoot axactly the way I wanted it to. Sure would take the fun otta having em. Lots more fun to kinda experiment a little.King

Zeus · « **Reply #18 on:** January 19, 2003, 03:40:48 PM »

I personally like the 300 XTP Mag. MS Hitman and I loaded some of the 300s as he described and they average out of my 7.5" FA at I think 1590. I shot a big doe yesterday at 110 yards with them and the bullet entered through the brisket and exited the offside Hindquarter. the exit hole was about the size of my thumb. Actually surprised me that after traveling the entire length of the deer, it really didn't do that much damage. The hindquarter was not ruined at all. Of the two deer that I've shot with this load so far this year, one at 65 yards and the one I just mentioned, neither took a step after the shot with the Casull so I haven't trailed one yet but with the holes that it produces, I don't see it being a problem.

thomas · « **Reply #19 on:** January 25, 2003, 01:53:30 PM »

Unless you are hunting Brown bear or things such as moose then you want a bullet to open up and do damage. This would leave out hard cast for deer. In the casull I use the 250XTP. The 300 XTP is ok for bear and moose but for deer it is To hard. Most of the time a deer runs off with the 300 XTP but the 250 will open up and put them down.
Now this is out of the Encore in a 15" barrel and even at close to 1950 fps the 300 just is too hard for deer. Bear is another story.
I follow along the lines of others using the lighter bullets.
Just do not like having to chase an animal
Tom

MS Hitman · « **Reply #20 on:** January 26, 2003, 08:07:25 AM »

Please do not take this as being argumentative. But, you are starting out with a bullet having a diameter of nearly a half an inch. How much additional expansion do you really believe you need? I am just an inquiring mind wanting to know. I have shot deer with the FA bullets (which are stouter than XTPs) through the shoulders and recovered the deer with little meat damage. As far as I could tell, there was no expansion in the bullet's diameter. I did not recover the bullet, so I am guessing based on observed evidence.

I did have a failure of one of the Freedom Arms bullets. I shot a large gemsbok through the right hindquarter whiel chasing it through the African bush. The jacket was lodged in the femur and the core was found approximately two feet forward in the stomach and had almost made it to the lung area. I do not honestly think I'd have gotten nearly the penetration with an XTP and also believe I'd have been chasing the animal for a while longer.

volshooter · « **Reply #21 on:** January 26, 2003, 05:13:04 PM »

I'm going to use standard 240 XTP's when I want expansion. I personally think the mag XTP is not a good choice when expansion is wanted at handgun velocities. I think that was what I was implying. I will use hard cast instead of the mags where expansion is not needed.
Rick

thomas · « **Reply #22 on:** January 29, 2003, 05:24:40 PM »

In my opinion thier is something to be said of bullets that expand and do damage while going through the animal.
yes I understand that the a 45 cal. bullet is already a big hole , but if it does not expand and do more damage then it don't put a animal down well
instead just punchinig a clean hole.
Still feel like if the bullet expands it will have more Knock down punch.
toml

MS Hitman · « **Reply #23 on:** January 29, 2003, 05:54:02 PM »

I still do not believe expansion of a bullet with an original diameter of .452" is essential in "putting an animal down well". Case in point, is one of the deer I shot with a 400 grain Speer Golddot from my .475 Linebaugh. Now, I measure penetration in feet with this round, not inches. By the looks of the opposite hindquarter, portions of the broken femur created the damage, not the bullet. The femur in the opposite hindquarter was broken after the bullet broke the upper bone of the onside front leg and traversed through the body cavity. Even with the bone shards, the exit hole was not overly large or messy.

Hard cast or heavy jacketed bullets are very much suitable for use on deer. I have shot many deer using the 260 grain FA bullet while getting ready to take it to Africa. These bullets are leaving the barrel of my 10" at nearly 1900 fps and like the .475, I measure penetration from this bullet in feet, regardless of the size of the animal I shot.

Stopping an animal requires the structure (bones) be broken or the central nervous system be overloaded and disrupted. If a bullet is not able to penetrate adequately, this will be much more difficult to acheive. The mag versions of the XTP in .452 are built for the FA revolvers. Because the velocities this round is capable of, the jackets need to be heavier. The 260 and 300 grain JSP made by or for FA is a tough bullet by design. One can very easily overdrive a bullet with this round and not only damage the revolver, but actually reduce some of the performance potential of the bullet being used.

thomas · « **Reply #24 on:** January 30, 2003, 06:33:28 PM »

To each his own. MY experiance with this bullet is killing a black bear.
Punching a hole was of no use.
They flat go DOWN quicker with a jacket that allows expansion.
The 300 XTP goes through and the bear runs after hitting bone
Maybe a deer might go down with the 300XTP Maybe if you hit the sholder.That is your experience.
I will still go for expansion unless I need to blast through shoulders on Rhino, But the 240 and 250's for me have done a better job on Blackies. They expand and go through breaking bones on the way out but do more damage.
And I would think my Casull barrel in 13" would have much more velocity than out of your revolvers.
But hey they make all kinds of things to do the same job due to personal preference right??
tom

Mikey · « **Reply #25 on:** January 31, 2003, 03:33:04 AM »

Tom: your experience with the heavier loads in that caliber and your preference for the lighter weight bullets is quite consistent with the information provdied by JJHACK, a very experienced bear hunter.

His findings regarding black bears and the heavier bullets and your experience with the same is the reason he advocates for bullets like the 240 grain in 44 magnums. He states, somewhere in this forum or one of the others, that the heavier bullets clean right through the black bear, whereas the lighter bullets expand and do the job much more quickly.

Now, this is with the black bear. He flatly states, I believe, that with the larger brown bear even the heavier loads in the 44 magnum (300 grain, etc) might be too light for those larger bruins and there he would probably recommend the heavy cast bullets in the 445 or 454.

His post on this topic is extremely interesting, especially in light of the large number of bears he has dealth with. It may be informative for you if you intend to hunt black bear again or even hunt the larger bears.

Hope this helps. Mikey.