Author Topic: I finished sighting in the Ultra Varmint in 223 (Read 2905 times)

iisabigone · « **on:** July 31, 2004, 11:04:06 AM »

Hey guys I thought I would let you know how the progress with my Ultra is going. After spending the last month seasoning the barrel by shooting and cleaning I did a final sighting today.

It was pretty close to where I wanted it the last time I shot a couple weeks ago.

My first shot out of the cold clean barrel was 2 1/2" high of my aiming point. The next "9" shots grouped 1 1/2 in high of my aiming point and in a 1 1/2 center to center group. Thats a 9 shot group!

So far Im very tickled at how this rifle is doing for me.

specs----> Ultra Varmint 24" bull barrel millet rings and Leupold VX III 3.5x10x50 winchester white box 45 grain hollow points.

There have been no modifications to the gun.

iisabigone

JohnK · « **Reply #1 on:** July 31, 2004, 03:08:25 PM »

That's what I did this morning too, sighted in my new Ultra Varmint. I have an inexpensive Tasco 2.5-10x44mm mounted on mine

I've only had mine a little over a week, and am not that great a shot with a long gun yet. I've heard several times that the Winchester ammo is the way to go. Federal American Eagle shoots Ok in mine I have yet to try the Winchester.

I tried some 62gr S&B rounds today - horrible, as expected. They key holed so badly that even at 25 yards they were hitting the target sideways.

Paul5388 · « **Reply #2 on:** July 31, 2004, 04:29:01 PM »

John,

I'm assuming you broke some of those S&B down to find they were 62 gr?

I have some 62 gr Samson's that actually shoot pretty good. About 2" at 100 yards, but the bullet may have an entirely different construction that allows the heavier bullet to stabilize in the slow NEF twist.

Glad you came down to visit, since you have that new Ultra!

JohnK · « **Reply #3 on:** July 31, 2004, 04:37:07 PM »

Correct Paul you were right on the weight. I pulled a couple bullets, they weighed 61.5 and 62.0

I also found impact bullet pullers don't work very well on NATO 223.

Pliers and a vice does, a bit hard on the bullet and case though. hehe.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #4 on:** July 31, 2004, 05:46:57 PM »

iisabigone, What's your best 3 or 5 shot group so far? I'm in the process of break in on my UV .223 and only have about 80 rounds thru the bore, but have got a couple nice sub 1/2 moa 3 shot groups, .265" and .440" ctc w/the win white box 45gr JHP. I did the bore polish job w/JB bore compound before I started shooting and hope this will make a difference. Thanks, Tim

quickdtoo · « **Reply #5 on:** July 31, 2004, 05:50:12 PM »

Quote from: JohnK

Correct Paul you were right on the weight. I pulled a couple bullets, they weighed 61.5 and 62.0

I also found impact bullet pullers don't work very well on NATO 223. Pliers and a vice does, a bit hard on the bullet and case though. hehe.

I thought I read somewhere that the 5.56 NATO rounds were too hot to shoot through the NEF/H&R rifles, is this incorrect? Or is there another issue? :? thanks, Tim

JohnK · « **Reply #6 on:** July 31, 2004, 06:21:37 PM »

The NEF manual says not to use NATO ammo. I've read many times in several places of people using it, and since the same barrel can apparently be rechambered for 22-250 I can't see a hot 223 causing a problem. I did have some problems with cases getting very slightly stuck, they wouldn't eject on their own but dropping a section of cleaning rod down the barrel would knock it out. After a good cleaning that would occur about 1 round in 10.

I've been told that NEF rifles often have rough chambers and that a light polishing will take care of even that slight sticking.

In my very limited experience the biggest problem using NATO ammo seems to be that it shoots like crap in the rifle, but, the bottem line is NEF says not to use it in their rifles. Manufacturers also say never to use handloads or reloads too though.

Paul5388 · « **Reply #7 on:** July 31, 2004, 06:22:42 PM »

Tim,

You can get by with some NATO rounds, but it all depends on who made them and how your chamber was reamed. I have some Chinese, supposedly NATO, loads and they will cause about any problem you can name, including pierced primers. OTOH, I don't have a problem with Samson (Israeli Military) 62 gr. keyholing or anything else. They shoot about 2" at 100 yards.

NATO ammo doesn't necessarily conform to SAAMI specs, but if you have a late model receiver, that will accept .308 or .30-06, the pressure generated by NATO rounds shouldn't even be an issue.

BTW, if you are getting sub MOA on a regular basis, you 're doing very well!

De41mag · « **Reply #8 on:** July 31, 2004, 08:02:01 PM »

Tim;

I've put well over 600 rnds. through my Ultra Varmit 223.
I did not use the JB paste at first. Did not throughly clean the gun either when I first got it. So I learned some expenisive lessons over a peroid of time. After about 400 rnds. this gun started shooting good with the Win. 45gr. white box.
A strange thing happend a little while back. Bought some Wolf 55gr.HP's. in the green laquered steel case. Three boxes to be exact. Well these things shot just as good as the Winchesters. And point of aim was the same. :eek:
Well, Sportsmans Guide had some on sale. So I ordered 240 rnds. When they came they were not the green cases a mentioned but a gray color and where they loaded the bullet in the case, a bit of the bullet has been shaved off, still on the case. These things don't shoot for crap. :x So now its back to the Win. 45's. I just want to shoot as cheap as I can with out having to reload. Been reloading for 19 yrs. now. Try to reload as little as possable and shoot as much as possable.
Good Shooting.

Dennis

JPH45 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 01, 2004, 03:54:42 AM »

I can't believe thee was almost no discussion on the NEF twist, it is too slow for bullets longer than 55 grains. Most of what folks here report is great groups with 45 and 50 grain bullets. the NEF is a 1-12 twist barrel, one needs at least a 1-9 barrel for 62 grain bullets

quickdtoo · « **Reply #10 on:** August 01, 2004, 06:50:48 AM »

I was gonna mention the twist rate and 55gr max bullet weight, but I'm just a newbie here and thought I'd just read and learn..... :grin: I don't think I mentioned it, but when I was at the range last, I tried the Ultramax 40gr nosler ballistic tips, shot 20 rounds, they almost shot as well as the win 45gr JHP with 3 shot groups in the .70"-.75" range at 100yds, FWIW.

iisabigone · « **Reply #11 on:** August 01, 2004, 08:56:23 AM »

quickdtoo I havent really broke out the tape measure and measured a 3 shot group. The nine shot group I shot saturday morning is the first measurement i have taken at 100 yds.

While doing the bore breakin I did have a couple shots touching at 100 with a couple more real close. Im estimatng maybe 1/2".

To tell you the truth I have only shot around 90 rounds through my gun so far. It takes so long to shoot and clean! Im finished with this bore breaking in stuff! Im going to start hunting with this gun and enjoy shooting it like it is.

I was thinking of doing some reloading with the 223 but the winchester white box shoots good better than I was anticipating. The only reason I would consider reloding now is if the 45 grain tears pelts up to bad to sew.

Longcruise · « **Reply #12 on:** August 01, 2004, 02:56:48 PM »

Quote

I was gonna mention the twist rate and 55gr max bullet weight, but I'm just a newbie here and thought I'd just read and learn

Quote

I can't believe thee was almost no discussion on the NEF twist, it is too slow for bullets longer than 55 grains. Most of what folks here report is great groups with 45 and 50 grain bullets. the NEF is a 1-12 twist barrel, one needs at least a 1-9 barrel for 62 grain bullets

Not sure why everybody is so sure that the 1/12 twist is no good over 55 grains :shock:

My NEF shoots 60 gr Horn Jsp and 60 gr Sierra HP as good as it shoots anything except the 45 win varmint pak (which is not all that good but that's another story :-) )

Just got back from the range and did a session with my new bolt .223 which is also a 1/12 twist. The 60 gr Sierra hp is the longest bullet that was tested today and it outshot 60 Hornaday, 55 Ballistic Tip, 52 speer HP (#1035), 50 gr Speer TNT and the Win 45 varmint pak :grin:

My NEF 223 stabilized Wolf and Barnaul 62 gr fmj ammo just fine. Not really all that accurate, but stable.

I think the secret of the Win ammo is that it has good concentricty and is firmly crimped. Wonder if a carefully loaded 45 or 50 BT with a Lee factory crimp might not do just as well?

The Win ammo flys in the face of the biggest complaint about the cause of inaccuracy in some nef rifles and that is the long throat. Mine has a very very long throat but yet the SAMMI length 45 Win ammo is about as good as it gets :shock:

quickdtoo · « **Reply #13 on:** August 01, 2004, 03:23:26 PM »

Longcruise, aside from everyones recommendation to shoot 55gr or less ammo, it says so right in the manual that came with the rifle that H&R doesn't recommend any bullet weights above 55 gr due to inaccuracy. We all know your .223 doesn't shoot well, and from what all I've learned, is the exception to the rule. Mine shoots great and I don't even have it well seasoned yet, I expect it to get a lot better but not with the heavier bullets. It shoots the win 45gr JHP extremely well and the Ultramax 40gr Nosler Ballistic tips almost as well, both well under 1moa. Everything I have read indicates that the 1 in 9 twist is required to shoot the longer bullets and that makes sense to me and I see no reason to waste my money on ammo that I know probably won't shoot well when there's plenty of inexpensive ammo that does shoot great, for me anyway.... :grin:

Paul5388 · « **Reply #14 on:** August 01, 2004, 06:07:09 PM »

JPH,

John and I had already discussed the twist rate in a thread on www.handloads.com, so you'll have to excuse the scant mention of "slow NEF twist" for those 62 gr bullets.

borg1 · « **Reply #15 on:** August 02, 2004, 02:21:28 AM »

I am still in the middle of seasoning my .223 bull barrel for my Handi. With a variety of ammo, that barrel pumps out groups anywhere from 3" to .75" CTC @100yds. This is also with the stock trigger pull (7.5 lbs). The sub-MOA groups were with PMC Bronze in a 55gr FMJ.

I am thinking of trying the 55gr Trophy Bonded loading by Federal. Has anybody had any experience with these rounds in the NEF/HR?

Longcruise · « **Reply #16 on:** August 03, 2004, 08:25:11 AM »

Quote

Longcruise, aside from everyones recommendation to shoot 55gr or less ammo, it says so right in the manual that came with the rifle that H&R doesn't recommend any bullet weights above 55 gr due to inaccuracy. We all know your .223 doesn't shoot well, and from what all I've learned, is the exception to the rule.

Well, you are falling back on what is termed "common knowledge" or "conventional wisdom". Not always a good source of info, especially in the cyberage where misinformation seems to spread faster than knowledge

I have never seen that statement in the nef manual but will 100% take your word for it. Once again, it would be interesting to be a fly on the wall when nef made the decision to print that! :-)

As said before, regardless of how well my handi does or does not shoot, it does shoot 60 and even 62 gr bullets as well as 50, 52 and 55 gr bullets! There is nothing unique about the handi 1/12 twist. Most .223 sporters are made with it. And, all of my .223's (ok, only three) have shot 60 gr bullets as well as 50 and 55 gr bullets.

Quote

Everything I have read indicates that the 1 in 9 twist is required to shoot the longer bullets and that makes sense to me and I see no reason to waste my money on ammo that I know probably won't shoot well when there's plenty of inexpensive ammo that does shoot great, for me anyway

See!!! That's exactly what I'm talking about. "Conventional wisdom" strikes again :grin:

Most of what is said on this topic is simply repeated over and over and over until it becomes etched in stone and our brains. :grin: Usually it is derived from applying the good old Greenhill Formula or from some very scant observations of one persons accuracy results with a given singular bullet that may or may not have shot well depending on that particular gun.

For an interesting experiment, try measuring some of your most accurate bullets in any given caliber and then apply the Greenhill Formula to them. You will find that they are too long to stabilize! Hmmmm................

Here are two groups both shot from the same .223 with a 1/12 twist. One is a 52 gr HP and the other is a 60 gr hp. The 60 gr hp is a particularly long bullet :shock:

22KHornet · « **Reply #17 on:** August 03, 2004, 10:20:50 AM »

I finally got some good range time in last weekend (first time this year) with the 223 bull barreled handi and was surprised. The first target I used the winchester 55 grn fmj and they shot like crap. I had about 15 rds fired and not one touched another. I then tried the Ultramax 52 grn hollow points and they did much better with 3 out of 8 touching. Next I shot the winchester 45 grn hollow points :shock: one ragged hole out of the same setup as the other 2. I then went back to the 55 grns to see if they had improved, nope :? still all over the place. I guess I will just stick with the 45 grn bullets until i get my 40 grn v-max load worked up :grin: and then a yote callin I will go.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #18 on:** August 03, 2004, 12:10:39 PM »

Longcruise, what can I say! If it ain't broke don't fix it.....the 40gr nosler bal tips and the win 45gr JHPs shoot pretty darn good in mine with sub moa groups, I don't expect BR accuracy from this rifle so I'll just stick with what works good enough for me. :grin: I understand why you're checking other options with the way yours is shooting, if mine were like that, I'd be experimenting too... :wink:

quickdtoo · « **Reply #19 on:** August 03, 2004, 12:47:43 PM »

Quote from: Longcruise

Quote
Longcruise, aside from everyones recommendation to shoot 55gr or less ammo, it says so right in the manual that came with the rifle that H&R doesn't recommend any bullet weights above 55 gr due to inaccuracy. We all know your .223 doesn't shoot well, and from what all I've learned, is the exception to the rule.

Well, you are falling back on what is termed "common knowledge" or "conventional wisdom". Not always a good source of info, especially in the cyberage where misinformation seems to spread faster than knowledge

I have never seen that statement in the nef manual but will 100% take your word for it. Once again, it would be interesting to be a fly on the wall when nef made the decision to print that! :-)

As said before, regardless of how well my handi does or does not shoot, it does shoot 60 and even 62 gr bullets as well as 50, 52 and 55 gr bullets! There is nothing unique about the handi 1/12 twist. Most .223 sporters are made with it. And, all of my .223's (ok, only three) have shot 60 gr bullets as well as 50 and 55 gr bullets.

Quote
Everything I have read indicates that the 1 in 9 twist is required to shoot the longer bullets and that makes sense to me and I see no reason to waste my money on ammo that I know probably won't shoot well when there's plenty of inexpensive ammo that does shoot great, for me anyway

See!!! That's exactly what I'm talking about. "Conventional wisdom" strikes again :grin:

Most of what is said on this topic is simply repeated over and over and over until it becomes etched in stone and our brains. :grin: Usually it is derived from applying the good old Greenhill Formula or from some very scant observations of one persons accuracy results with a given singular bullet that may or may not have shot well depending on that particular gun.

Here's the statement from the page that was included with my UV. I will email the scanned .pdf file of the entire page if you pm me your e address. It also recommends not to shoot 5.56 NATO ammo in an NEF due to SAAMI standards.

"In addition some 223 REM ammunition uses bullets
heavier than 55 grains. This rifle has a rifling twist of
1:12" which is not designed to properly stabilize bullets
grealer than 55 grains in weight. These bullets will not
provide the same level of accuracy as bullets weighing 55
grains or less."

This photo link may provide a view of the actual Notice as a .bmp file.

DAD · « **Reply #20 on:** August 03, 2004, 01:37:50 PM »

When I got my 223 bull I bought several brands of ammo. It was all 55 grains didn't do very well. Then tried 45JHP from winchester and now sub moa all the way to 300 yards. I will try some 50gr and a couple of different 45gr but I think at this point I have found the right como.

JohnK · « **Reply #21 on:** August 03, 2004, 03:02:36 PM »

I haven't repeated what others have said, but in MY H&R the 62gr loads keyholed badly, I have a great scan of the target if anyone wants to see it. 55gr loads shoot much better. 1.1" (5 shot) @ 50 yards seated using sticks as a support (I'm still not much of a rifle shot). I still haven't found anyone who has the 45gr Winchester in stock to try it yet. Finding that stuff has almost become a quest.

If the 60+ gr loads are shooting well in your gun I'd keep shooting them even if they're "not supposed to" shoot them well. :-)

quickdtoo · « **Reply #22 on:** August 03, 2004, 03:07:25 PM »

You can always order it from Midway, comes in boxes if 40 or 50. Watch the minimum order amount, though.

http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/786532

http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/787551

Mitch in MI · « **Reply #23 on:** August 03, 2004, 04:42:19 PM »

Quote from: quickdtoo

You can always order it from Midway, comes in boxes if 40 or 50.

The stuff I got at Gander Mountain does not seem to be the same in the 40 pack and 50 pack.
The 50 pack is labeled 45gr JHP, the 40 pack is labled 45gr JHP varmint high velocity 3600fps.

I haven't had a chance to throw them over the chrono to see if there's a difference.

The 40 pack is in foam blocks, the 50 pack is just stuffed in the box like 22 LR shells.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #24 on:** August 03, 2004, 04:58:52 PM »

I got some of both, now I'm interested in knowing if the 50 pack shoots the same as I haven't shot any of it yet. Thanks!

lik2hunt · « **Reply #25 on:** August 04, 2004, 03:20:45 AM »

My knowledge base is certainly not as extensive as some others posting to this thread, but here is what I do know; my bull barrel shot the UMC 55 gr. cheap stuff made by Remington better in the first 20 rounds than the 45 gr. Win JHP's. Much better as a matter of fact. The next 20 rounds have proven that each shoot equally well. No keyholing with the 55 gr. I have not had them out any further than 100 yds. The cost difference dictates staying with the UMC for now since I don't plan to reload for this gun yet. I also received the same notice from NEF as quicktdoo. Who knows what might happen after I reach 200-400 rounds shot through this barrel but as I said, this is what I do know for now.

Longcruise · « **Reply #26 on:** August 04, 2004, 04:42:23 AM »

Quote

in MY H&R the 62gr loads keyholed badly, I have a great scan of the target if anyone wants to see it.

I'd be curious to see it. Please don't think I am challenging the existence of this but I would like to have a look at the position the bullet was in as it passed through the target. Thanks for offering that.

Quote

Here's the statement from the page that was included with my UV.

I never doubted you for a minute. Just don't agree with NEF that it is a blanket statement that can be applied to all bullets. The factors that effect stability are not as simple as the weight and even the length of the bullet. that's why I view their statement as more a matter of pre-empting consumer complaints because they know that some heavier bullets are not going to stabilize regardless of the cause and that some of those heavier bullets selected by the consumers are going to be the 68 and 69 grainers.

Quote

.....the 40gr nosler bal tips and the win 45gr JHPs shoot pretty darn good in mine

Those are the best shooters in my nef too (the win white pak) and they shot really good in my bolt gun but everything I've shot through the bolt gun (handloads) has outshot the win pak except the 50 TNT. That's why I am thinking that the shooting qualities of the win pak in the nef is not so much a function of the bullet weight as it is how the ammo is loaded, be it powder selection, primer, concentricity, crimp, etc.

There is something missing from my handloads that offends the nef but not the bolt gun

In reading shooting reports by other nef owners here and on other boards, I get the same impression. The win pak shoots and they have a hard time duplicating that accuracy in their handloads. I'm pretty sure that it's not about the bullet weight when you see nef guns shooting the win pak good and their own 50, 52, and 55 gr handloads are not as good. I still think it's about load components and construction.

Remember that while my nef does not shoot very well, it's still a relative thing as far as comparing loads goes. If it won't do any better than 2 or 2.5 moa it may not be a great shooter but the question is why is it the win pak and not my own loads that shoot the best. This has never been an issue with any other rifle I've owned and loaded for (about 15 or so)

For most nef owners this seems like a minor matter not worth consideration. Heck, if the win pak shoots good enough for their field application, then why mess with it. OTOH, my nef does not shoot well enough for my field application of a .223 so therefore the only thing left between me and my nef .223 is this constant piddling around with various loads and solutions.

Not a practical relationship but better than many marriages. :-D :-D

JohnK · « **Reply #27 on:** August 04, 2004, 04:53:48 AM »

Quote from: Longcruise

Quote
in MY H&R the 62gr loads keyholed badly, I have a great scan of the target if anyone wants to see it.

I'd be curious to see it. Please don't think I am challenging the existence of this but I would like to have a look at the position the bullet was in as it passed through the target. Thanks for offering that.

http://forums.handloads.com/uploads/johnk/NEF.SandB.jpg

It's interesting how consistantly they were pointing around 10-11:00.

Longcruise · « **Reply #28 on:** August 04, 2004, 05:22:48 AM »

Quote

It's interesting how consistantly they were pointing around 10-11:00.

Yeah, wonder what is causeing that?

There have been some doppler radar studies of bullets that have lost stability. I always thought they started to tumble and continued to tumble in flight, but the doppler showed that they assume a sideways orientation with the base somewhat forward and stay that way. Does not explain the direction they point in though!

Thanks for posting.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #29 on:** August 04, 2004, 05:32:10 AM »

Quote from: Longcruise

There is something missing from my handloads that offends the nef but not the bolt gun In reading shooting reports by other nef owners here and on other boards, I get the same impression. The win pak shoots and they have a hard time duplicating that accuracy in their handloads. I'm pretty sure that it's not about the bullet weight when you see nef guns shooting the win pak good and their own 50, 52, and 55 gr handloads are not as good. I still think it's about load components and construction

Maybe a bullet exam is in order! Pull the 45gr JHP from one of the win white box bullets and examine the powder and weigh the charge....maybe a starting place?

:?