Author Topic: 223 REM for deer? Anybody use 'em? (Read 1666 times)

The Encore Kid · « **on:** July 31, 2004, 01:16:13 PM »

A guy at work talks about using his Ruger mini-14 for deer hunting. It is legal in Kentucky, but is it effective. I don't know anyone else that uses the 223 REM on deer but he says it works well. I know the most important thing is shot placement, but "use enough gun" always comes to mind. How do you all feel?

Chuck White · « **Reply #1 on:** July 31, 2004, 03:14:27 PM »

You bet your A-- it will work!
I know this will stirr up a hornets nest, but I have seen the .223 Remington take many whitetails, a few, out to 300 yards!
You said it properly, shot placement is the key!
I have only used 55 grain bullets!

If you put one tight behind the shoulder, that deer will not go far! Many times, if they are not "alert", they will drop right there! If you're worried about the deer running across the property line after the shot, etc, your best point of aim would be centered with the front leg, about 8 inches down from the top of the shoulder! If you hit there, the deer will drop in it's tracks!

NOTE:
I have shot deer with my 221 fireball and also with my 22 Hornet! The bullets of choice were 221 FB, 50 grain Hornady sp and, 22 Hornet, 45 grain Hornady sp! All shots were through the ribs except for one time with the Hornet, I put it high on the shoulder (at about 75 yards) and he dropped right there. I never had one move over 2 or 3 steps!

7magWoodsman · « **Reply #2 on:** July 31, 2004, 07:11:55 PM »

I don't use one myself(and never have, or will unless I haft to to survive, and I would not doubt it) but I know someone that has used a 223 Remington Bolt for over 20 years and I have never known him to lose a deer, It is shot placement....but anyway the bottem line is"It may not be the best, but if it gets the job done it gets the job done"

I kinda compare the 223 Rem. to the 410 shotgun...In the hands of an expert it is "very" capable farther out than one chooses to realize....

I know a guy from Cookville, Tn. who shot a Black Bear with a 22lr in the eye and killed it dead as dead...He said he was tired of it eatin his apples and didnt have no other gun but but his Stevens Model 121 single shot he had had for 40 years, he got from his dad for a b-day present when he was a boy(he had just got divorced and lost/sold his guns)

after thats been said I would NEVER recommend a 223 for Deer hunting....

JPSaxMan · « **Reply #3 on:** August 02, 2004, 04:51:20 PM »

I prolly shouldn't say this and I definetly won't post a picture. A friend of mine (who is also a member of this site) shot a 250 lb. + 9 point whitetail buck at 10 yds w/ one. He bought a Winchester Model 70 in .270 2 yrs. ago just to ensure if he runs into sumtin bigger, it won't give him a hard time to knock it down! :lol:

shooter444002 · « **Reply #4 on:** August 03, 2004, 12:43:38 PM »

works well with proper bullet placement, have had good luck with the 55gr Hornady in both 223 and 22-250. My 6yo daughter has killed several deer with one with double shoulder shots at close range and the bullet has held up well and they were DRI. Will try my new Savage 12fv-s with the 65gr sierra on one this year, we are under a managed lands system and our bag limit is set by our biologist and we get to kill many deer and not have to use the 5 tags on our lic. so that lets us go on doe culling hunts on our west TX lease as well. Lots of good testing ground!

THE#1hunter · « **Reply #5 on:** August 05, 2004, 04:30:00 AM »

I had a .222 Rem, and all the deer that I took with it diddnt go any further tha 20 yards, including two that dropped in there tracks, bullet placement is key.

Chuck White · « **Reply #6 on:** August 05, 2004, 05:11:34 AM »

Everyone seems to agree! Placement is KEY!

But then , the same is true even if you're deer hunting with a 30-06 Springfield or a 458 Win Mag!

The bottom line is: A 223 Remington bullet through the ribs equals "dead deer"!

Regards;

Rmouleart · « **Reply #7 on:** August 05, 2004, 05:30:41 AM »

Personally I would not use anything lighter than a 243Win using 100gr bullet, even on small deer, a 22lr can kill a deer, but of course we all know not the best tool in the shed;) I guess everybody should know there limitations, if you can place your shot were you want it at the ranges you will be hunting, you should not have a problem, Id rather use a 30 cal on deer like animals, using 150-180gr bullets, good deer medicine, they can be tough critters to down at times, when worked up and aware. Aim small hit small. RAMbo.

ratherbefishin · « **Reply #8 on:** August 08, 2004, 05:09:14 PM »

a 22 LR at ranges under 50 yards will drop a buck right in his tracks if you hit him right behind the eye.Of course, you need a steady rest and a scoped rifle that is capable of shooting 1 inch groups or less at that range.I would consider a 223 overkill under those conditions

Lawdog · « **Reply #9 on:** August 09, 2004, 12:46:50 PM »

In the 40 plus years I have been hunting deer(small Blacktails, larger Mule Deer) I have seen more deer wounded using .22 caliber centerfires than any other caliber. The wound channel on a .223 Rem. is so small as to cause a wounded animal even when hit in the lungs. It just doesnt do enough damage. Compare the wound channels of the .223 to even a .257 and the difference is quite surprising. Will it kill a deer? YES. Ethically should you use one? NO!!! All .22 centerfires should be outlawed for hunting anything larger than varmints. Lawdog

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #10 on:** August 09, 2004, 01:07:47 PM »

Quote from: Lawdog

In the 40 plus years I have been hunting deer(small Blacktails, larger Mule Deer) I have seen more deer wounded using .22 caliber centerfires than any other caliber. The wound channel on a .223 Rem. is so small as to cause a wounded animal even when hit in the lungs. It just doesnt do enough damage. Compare the wound channels of the .223 to even a .257 and the difference is quite surprising. Will it kill a deer? YES. Ethically should you use one? NO!!! All .22 centerfires should be outlawed for hunting anything larger than varmints. Lawdog

I have to agree with you on that Lawdog. :shock:

shooter444002 · « **Reply #11 on:** August 09, 2004, 02:18:40 PM »

That is kind of the opposite of what I have seen, my 22- 250 with 55gr sps does way more damage in the vitals than my 257roberts with 100 or 115gr bullets. The 22-250 has killed them quicker in my experience as well. It also seems to kill quicker than my 308. When I hunt a big buck I use a big gun, but for culling these small TX does and shooting up to 20+ of them a day I will use a 223 or 22-250 nearly everytime, cuts down on trailing time. Give the antis more fuel to the fire by banning more stuff.

MGMorden · « **Reply #12 on:** August 09, 2004, 03:22:11 PM »

I wouldn't personally do it. Sure it will take a deer (I've seen deer killed with dove loads out of a shotgun. Illegal, but within 15 yards it'll drag them down. Doesn't mean it's a good idea), but your margin of error decreases DRAMATICALLY. You're going to chance wounding an animal over what? Bragging rights? Not a good thing in my book. If you're recoil shy go with a .243 or a .257 Roberts. 6.5x55 is also a WONDERFUL round and that virtually anyone should be able to shoot. .30-06 is a tried and true performer, but a lot heavier on the recoil. Still not bad, but then again I don't find 12ga 3" 00 buckshot too bad, so I'm biased (when I was a kid I got to shoot shotguns for years before ever being allowed to touch a rifle)

.

ratherbefishin · « **Reply #13 on:** August 09, 2004, 05:57:58 PM »

I prefer to use my 6.5x55-swede-taken over 30 blacktails with it, and it is my 'ideal'' deer hunting rifle, able to kill deer reliably farther than my capabilities are.But- is a 223 adequite?Under very limited circumstances -yes.The Natives up here use 22's, and my friend , a surgeon, used to use a 22 magnum on feral goats.One careful shot in the neck or behind the eye dropped them in their tracks.But- that doesn't make it an ''all round'' or preferable calibre by any means-but it will do the job-under very controlled circumstances- those being a steady rest, standing broadside shots under 50 yard head or neck shots.I wouldn't even take a lung shot, the risk of wounding is too great.You kill the deer alright- next week.

safetysheriff · « **Reply #14 on:** August 12, 2004, 03:36:13 PM »

you remember the old advertisement, "speed kills"? it's true! it's the velocity and those little 55 AND 60 gr' Hornady spire points that drop deer so effectively. those spire points are just the ticket for deer up to a little over 250 lbs from what i've seen; and maybe more depending upon where you hit them and how far off they are.

a landowner that i know does great 'work' with the .223 on white tails, even to weights of approx' 250 lbs' as noted above. they don't go far!

patience in making the shot seems to be a reasonable requirement with any firearm we use on deer. a poorly hit deer is a misery even if hit with a magnum. proper use of a .22 cal' centerfire on deer seems reasonable to me.

Lawdog · « **Reply #15 on:** August 13, 2004, 12:13:27 PM »

safetysheriff,

I really beg to differ with you. If I can find the pictures of a test that was done about five years ago where they tested bullet expansion on gelatin blocks I will have them posted here. They show the different wound size channels of different calibers. The wound channel of the .22 centerfires were so small as to leave little margin for error. Shot placement is critical. The average shooter is handicapping themselves by using one. Like I have said I have seen more deer wounded by hunters using .22 centerfires than any other caliber. I lost two nice Blacktail bucks myself back when I was young and foolish using a .220 Swift. There was nothing wrong with shot placement as both were shot through the lungs(found the deer the next day in both cases) but they traveled over half a mile. No blood trail due to no exit wound in both cases. Sorry but NO .22 centerfire is adequate for big game and should be legislated(BY LAW) to varmint use ONLY. Lawdog

drags · « **Reply #16 on:** August 13, 2004, 02:51:20 PM »

Question for Chuck White, Have you shot many deer with your 22 hornet? I just bought one and I'm thinking about hunting does is Pa. with it, I'll be using 40gr or 45gr sierra bullets. I shot one doe with a .223 and one with a 22-250 the one with the .223 went about 50yds and died and the one shot with the 22-250 dropped in its tracks.

drags · « **Reply #17 on:** August 13, 2004, 03:01:05 PM »

Lawdog, you said the deer were shot through both lungs and ran one half a mile. Every time I shot a deer through the lungs they went 50yds maximum. Also I resepectly dissagree about making more laws for the sportsmen and gunowners.

shooter444002 · « **Reply #18 on:** August 13, 2004, 05:32:25 PM »

Second the last remark by drags.

Blaine · « **Reply #19 on:** August 13, 2004, 06:08:59 PM »

You can kill a deer by hitting him between the eyes with a rock if its thrown fast enough, but why would you want to try? A perfect broadside shot at a standing animal when you have a good rest and lots of time is one thing, but when he's walking & quartering away, it makes more sense to me to use something that will give you a little "working room", but that's just my humble opinion.

ratherbefishin · « **Reply #20 on:** August 14, 2004, 04:13:25 AM »

that is precisely what I said- a 22 LR will drop a buck dead in his tracks if you hit him right behind the eye within 40 or 50 yards.But that hardly makes a 22 the ''ideal deer rifle''.Under general hunting conditions you want something capable of killing the deer quickly and humainly without risk of wounding.Head and neck shots are fine if everything is perfect, but most times they aren;t , but you don't need a 338 magnum either..My 6.5 x55 swede is what I consider the ideal deer rifle. Nothing fancy-just does the job quickly and efficiently with low recoil and a 139 gr bullet

Lawdog · « **Reply #21 on:** August 14, 2004, 07:50:52 AM »

drags,

Quote

Also I resepectly dissagree about making more laws for the sportsmen and gunowners.

I too don't care for more laws but at times they are needed when people don't what to use common sense. I am not flaming so please dont think I am attacking anyone. Many states have already passed laws banning the use of .22 centerfires and I applaud them. But seeing that some states are still so backwards in their thinking that a Federal law would just make things simpler.

Quote

Lawdog, you said the deer were shot through both lungs and ran one half a mile. Every time I shot a deer through the lungs they went 50yds maximum.

That may very well be true but I have shot deer with a low lung hit that just missed the heart thus the deer didnt drown in their own blood due to it draining off into the chest cavity and not staying in the lungs. Half a mile isnt all that far(880 yards), how long do you think it takes a deer running to cover that distance? I am sorry but NO .22 centerfire is suitable for the average hunter under average hunting conditions. And if it takes a law to keep people from using one for big game then so be it. Lawdog

drags · « **Reply #22 on:** August 14, 2004, 08:44:04 AM »

Lawdog, when a moderator on a hunting, shooting, fishing, and outdoor forum wants to make laws restraing hunters and sportsmen and another moderator agrees with him this just the anti hunters more fuel for the fire. Next thing someone will wound a deer with a .243 and someone will want to make that caliber illeagle. There is no gentle way to kill an animal bones are broken flesh is torn there is bleeding ect. P.E.T.A and other anti hunting groups believe there is no humain way to kill an animal no matter what the hunter says. If we changed the law every time someone disagreed with it we would have a mess, we would be better off to live and let live. Sometime we are own worst enemy. JMO A deer that is shot will usuall run a short distance 150 to 200 yds and lay down, not 880 yds unless some one is chasing it right after he shoots it. Again we must learn to co-habitate or our sport is in trouble.

Blaine · « **Reply #23 on:** August 14, 2004, 08:44:08 AM »

I am in compete agreement with Lawdog. It was said earlier that "speed kills". That's true in cars, but not in terminal ballistics. What kills is remaining energy at the point of impact and momentum. Case in point....if you can shoot a needle at 10,000 fps through a deer's lungs, will it kill him? Maybe in a week or so after infection sets in :wink: I am a firm believer that the average deer hunter should not be using anything smaller than a .243. If it takes a law to ensure that, I would be all for it.

Blaine

Lawdog · « **Reply #24 on:** August 15, 2004, 10:09:31 AM »

drags,

Me being a Moderator on this site(or any other site) has nothing to do with the fact that people sometimes need directing(by directing I mean LAWS). Just because some anti-hunter may, on the off chance, see what I or some other hunter/shooter may write doesnt mean we should stay quite when faced with people recommending foolish or un-safe things. If everyone adhered to common sense and courteously then laws/courts wouldnt be necessary. But they dont. If you think people can live together without laws you are either very young and idealistic or you dont live on Earth.

As to how far a deer will run after being hit is subjective on where it was hit and what it was doing when it was shot. Once I took a nice a 3x3 Blacktail one time with a bow that was standing on his hind legs eating apples out of a tree. Put an arrow thru his lungs and he dropped straight down and never moved. The two bucks I related to in my other post were alert looking for the danger when hit. They had been run out of their beds by other hunters. Afterwards we(three of us) looked for those bucks until it was too dark to see but with NO blood trail to follow it was impossible to find them. The next day the buzzards told us where they were at. You are right when you say that most deer, when hit in the lungs, usually dont run all that far after being hit. True if you use a suitable cartridge that has a large enough wound channel. The wound channel of a .243 Win. is almost twice as large as one from a .22 centerfire.

I am sorry you may not like laws but until people learn to use common sense and courteously then laws are a necessity. Small groups and tight to you. Lawdog

drags · « **Reply #25 on:** August 15, 2004, 12:34:12 PM »

Lawdog, I never said that I think people could live together without laws or that I didn't like laws. What does very young have to do with it and who elected you the director and why the bold Print?
You said on the small bore rifle forum to go ahead and use a 25-06 with a 120gr premium bullet for rocky mtn. elk. If a 25-06 with a 120gr bullet is ok for an 800lb elk why isn't a 55 or 65gr .224 bullet isn't ok for a 80lb blacktail deer? I wouldn't hunt large whitetails or muledeer with a 22cal. but the blacktails I've seen are small.
You mentioned a .243 cal. did you know you could get a bullet as light as 55gr for the .243.
Young people have the right to express there opions just like old people and are just as smart maybe smarter, rememeber no one is to old to learn.
Good luck to you lawdog
Drags

THE#1hunter · « **Reply #26 on:** August 15, 2004, 01:52:09 PM »

I hope this doesn't go the wrong way, im sorry if it does...but what if there was a kid involved and it was the only gun he or she has, and he/she loves to hunt, and a some sort or a .22 centerfire is the only gun available to him or her?....(I dont think any .22 centerfire is right for big -game hunting, but it will do the job). Also... add theese to the situation, 1. he really diddnt have any money 2. hunting is the only thing that he or she likes to do..and by making it a law that he cant use the only gun he or she has to hunt with illegal, I know if I was in that situation, it would discourage me to not want to hunt...Remember when we were kids, how we would go hunting 24/7 if it was possible....Thats just my :money: , mabye thats all its worth...

7magWoodsman · « **Reply #27 on:** August 15, 2004, 02:03:14 PM »

I wonder who has lost more deer....An experienced shooter with a .22 cal. centerfire or an inexperienced shooter with a .300 win mag?

In my life I have only witnessed three deer with rifles get wounded and escape I have NEVER lost a deer myself(excluding theft)(knock on wood) but the three deer that got away were all shot with .30 cals one with a 7.62x39 and two with .300 Win. Mags and out of those three I successfully tracked two of them and made the finishing shots. Both shooters with the 300 mags were very inexperienced and since then both have changed guns and have not lost anymore(I guess all my fussing and griping helped too) one of em uses a 30-30 now the other a .243.

In Tennessee there is a law that you can only use a 24cal(6mm) or larger but in my homestate of Kentucky you can use "ANY" centerfire and I hope it stays that way, there are a lot of old timers round here that use their .222s for EVERYTHING.

The "bulk" of my rifle hunts has been done using a 30'06 or 7mag but I do use the old 336 30-30 sometimes. and I know that these three "WILL" fail with "BAD" shots but I don't think they should be "outlawed".

I think that if a hunter knows his tool(rifle) and the limitations of the tool(rifle) and is experienced with the game being sought will not have a problem killing anything they want. A "GOOD" hunter will not take a running shot at a deer with a .22 cal. On the rare times I hunt with the 30-30 I limit myself to short(40-50 yard) running shots or 200 yard standing shots and save those 150 yard running shots and the 400 yard standing shots for the 7mag. Just my .02 :money:

Happy Hunting

Chuck White · « **Reply #28 on:** August 15, 2004, 03:22:36 PM »

Quote from: drags

Question for Chuck White, Have you shot many deer with your 22 hornet? I just bought one and I'm thinking about hunting does is Pa. with it, I'll be using 40gr or 45gr sierra bullets. I shot one doe with a .223 and one with a 22-250 the one with the .223 went about 50yds and died and the one shot with the 22-250 dropped in its tracks.

Drags; I've shot 4 that I can think of right off hand! My younger brother has taken more than that!
These deer were taken from 25 yards, out to 125 yards! They were all standing or walking deer (no running shots with the Hornet) and most of them dropped instantly! The furthest any one of them ran is around 40-50 yards! All shots were "just behind the shoulder" through the ribs! One I took was the "high shoulder" shot!

I know that it's hard for some people to believe that the little hornet will drop a deer like it does!

Whenever I use my Hornet, I usually go out and sit and wait for the deer to come my way!

Good Luck to you;

drags · « **Reply #29 on:** August 15, 2004, 03:26:02 PM »

Good point #1 hunter, when a friend of mine youngest son became 12 my friend couldn't afford a deer rifle for him right away so he used his fathers .223 the first year, he hunted the first two days and both saturdays and didn't get a shot, the next year his father bought him a .270win. and he thinks its the best gun in the world. That was several years ago and the boy loves to hunt, had the law prevented him from using the .223 he may not be a hunter today, and we all know hunter numbers are down and we need all the hunters we can get if we want our sport to continue. I live in Pa. also and the economy is not as good as some states and some parents cannot afford to buy there children guns right away so they have to use what they have.
Drags