Author Topic: Win lever .357 Mag to .357 Max (Read 1404 times)

handirifle · « **on:** July 31, 2004, 03:16:00 PM »

I did a search and found little on this. Does anyone know if the Winchester can be converted properly from .357 Mag to .357 Max?

If so, by whom?

This is interesting to me cause it would still allow use of 357 Mag ammo as well. The .357 mag is my carry sidearm during rifle season.

unspellable · « **Reply #1 on:** August 02, 2004, 12:09:04 PM »

I am interested in this question although I am thinking more in terms of converting a 44 mag to 445 Super Mag. I'm not so sure the same rifle can handle both as a shorter cartridge might protrude from the magazine and block the lifter. Somebdoy else here will know better than I.

For the 357, as long as I were converting it, I'd chamber it for the 357 Super Mag. (The 357 Maximum is a slightly shortened version of the 357 Super Mag.)

Graybeard · « **Reply #2 on:** August 03, 2004, 01:37:36 AM »

Both are the same round. Just two different names for same round.

Any rifle set up for the .357 will need someone who knows what they are doing to fix it to feed the longer round properly.

GB

unspellable · « **Reply #3 on:** August 03, 2004, 01:57:34 AM »

Elgin Gates first conceived the 357 Super Mag and at that time it had wildcat status. Remington and Ruger decided to go commercial with it, and as so often happens when the manufactures take a wildcat commercial they had to fix something that wasn't broke. Ruger did not want to make the frame window long enough to accomodate the 357 Super Mag and the 357 maximum was born. Gates warned them not to do it. The 357 maximum does not have enough OAL to easily accomodate the heavier bullets. The concept was to push heavier bullets at 357 Magnum sppeds rather than 357 Magnum bullets at hyper speeds. Light bullets with massive amounts of slow powder were what led to the erosion scare with the 357 Maximum while the silhouette shooters were fat dumb and happy shooting heavy bullets from the 357 Super Mag.

Nominal case length:

357 Maximum 1.605 inch
357 Super Mag 1.610 inch

max OAL

357 maximum 1.990
357 Super Mag 2.115

The maximum OAL for the Super Mag is 0.125 greater than for the Maximum. A properly loaded 357 Super Mag with a heavy bullet will not chamber in the Ruger as the bullet nose will stick out of the front of the cylinder.

They are not the same cartridge. The greater OAL of the Super Mag allows proper seating of heavy bullets where in the Maximum they must be deep seated and use up powder room.

Dan Wesson cooperated with Gates and made the frame window long enough for the Super Mag. The great mystery is why they build a revolver chambered for the 357 Super Mag and then mark it as a 357 Maximum. Maybe because the Super Mag is a proprietary cartridge while Winchester and Remington loaded the Maximum.

Dragon31 · « **Reply #4 on:** August 05, 2004, 11:56:26 AM »

Maybe an easier conversion would be to 360 Dan Wesson which is a shorter version of the 357 Max (or a longer version of the .357 Mag, depending on how you look at it). The 360 DW has room for about 20 to 25 % more powder than the Mag with the usual 1 to 5 per cent gain in velocity. If I were paying for the conversion of a lever gun of course I would go the the Max if it was easily do able.

handirifle · « **Reply #5 on:** August 09, 2004, 06:05:25 PM »

dragon31
That is a point worth investigating, probably wouldn't take much to do that one.

unspellable · « **Reply #6 on:** August 10, 2004, 01:39:25 AM »

Now that you guys are talking about two or three different cartrdiges, how about the 357-44 B&D? Same OAL as the 357 Magnum. Of all the revolver cartridges it is said to be the one that gives the best relative performance in a rifle. (By relative, I mean how much does the cartridge gain in a rifle vs. the same cartridge in a revolver.) Now that I think about it this might be the one for me. I have a S&W chambered for this cartridge already.

Where are the level action gurus to tell us who easy or difficult these conversions would be?

handirifle · « **Reply #7 on:** August 11, 2004, 03:06:48 PM »

The original intent was to retain the ability to use factory 357 and 38sp loads too.

unspellable · « **Reply #8 on:** August 12, 2004, 07:33:18 AM »

I have to admit that a 38 Special or 357 magnum would not work very well in a 357-44 chamber. If shooting 38 Specials and 357 Magnums is a requirement then we are back to the 357 Maximum or 357 Super Mag. Assuming the lifter can handle catridges of such diverse length, a point that's not clear in my mind. This is where we need a lever action guru to clarify the point.

It's all in what turns you on. I'd think of a 357-44 because it does well in a rifle and I have a revolver chambered for it. On the other hand my two Model 94's are chambered for 30-30 and 32 Special. If I had any sense I'd be happy with things as they are.

Gowge · « **Reply #9 on:** August 27, 2004, 04:30:06 AM »

Quote from: unspellable

I have to admit that a 38 Special or 357 magnum would not work very well in a 357-44 chamber. If shooting 38 Specials and 357 Magnums is a requirement then we are back to the 357 Maximum or 357 Super Mag. Assuming the lifter can handle catridges of such diverse length, a point that's not clear in my mind. This is where we need a lever action guru to clarify the point.

It's all in what turns you on. I'd think of a 357-44 because it does well in a rifle and I have a revolver chambered for it. On the other hand my two Model 94's are chambered for 30-30 and 32 Special. If I had any sense I'd be happy with things as they are.

Here's some info on the Maxi and especially your .357/44B&D in a rifle... how 'bout 180gr @ 2200fps?

http://www.sixgunner.com/backissues/paco/357maxi.htm

Multiple cartridge lengths from .38spl to .357 Maxi won't work - you can't shoot .38s & .357s in the longer Max or Super-Mag chambers - the jump is too big and hot loads in the shorter cartridges will mess up your chambers. I don't see a lotta' benefit to messin' with those wildcats, when you can shoot the same bullets in a 35 Remington at better velocity or use very docile cast loads too...

Scroll down to the load data on this first link and see what you can squeeze from a .38/.357 Mag in a Model 94 Winny!

http://www.sixgunner.com/backissues/paco/357%20Heavy.htm

Here's what you can get from a 35 Remington. How 'bout a 280/290gr bullet @ 2100fps?

http://www.sixgunner.com/backissues/paco/remmar.htm

Elgin Gates cousin, James C. Gates came up with a better solution if you want more power from a standard length lever action. James sorted out a chamber reamer (available) to rechamber a .44 Mag barrel for the abundant and low cost Marlin 336 ~ 30-30 actions to a "44 Mag Max" (1.8" case length) made from a trimmed back Marlin 444. This is 'bout as much horsepower for a lightweight, heavy woods walkin' around lever action as you're likely to get from a 30-30 action with 265-300gr bullets. The 44 Mag Max comes out the same COL as a 30-30, but the larger case allows more powder capacity and heavier bullets to be used. Only minor tweaking of the cartridge lifter & loading gate with a dremmel tool by a gunsmith and the action is ready...

James Gates can be reached thru Dixie Slugs - http://www.dixieslugs.com

BTW, if you come across a single shot H&R in .44 Mag, it's easy to rechamber one of these to the Mag Max as well - the thing will flat knock the taste outa' your mouth! :wink:

GOOD LUCK!

unspellable · « **Reply #10 on:** August 27, 2004, 07:25:42 AM »

I don't think anyone will deny that as a general principle rifle cartridges work better in rifles than pistol cartridges do. The question here has been about using pistol cartridges in the rifle so as to use the same cartridge in both handgun and rifle. I don't think any claims it's really practical, just a bit of nostalgia from the days when the 44-40 was king.

As for a short cartridge in a long chamber, I'm not big on the practice either. I put up my lite 357 Magnum loads in 357 brass rather than using 38 brass. However the revolver shooters will maintain it's not a real problem. In any case it's nice to think you can do it in a pinch.

My question (Which has yet to be answered.) is whether or not the lifter in something like a Winchester Model 1894 can handle such a diversity of lengths as going from 38 Special to 357 Super Mag.

handirifle · « **Reply #11 on:** August 27, 2004, 06:19:26 PM »

All good points to consider. Thanks all.

Gowge · « **Reply #12 on:** August 27, 2004, 09:02:24 PM »

Quote from: unspellable

.......My question (Which has yet to be answered.) is whether or not the lifter in something like a Winchester Model 1894 can handle such a diversity of lengths as going from 38 Special to 357 Super Mag.

Nobody's tried it yet that I'm aware. Why don't YOU buy a lever with an action long enough to handle the 1.6" case length & 1.99"COL (like 30-30 actions) and get it all tuned up and see if it will handle .38s or .357s? You got an idea what's involved in that sorta' conversion?
Neither Winchester, nor Marlin AFAIK, ever made a .357 Mag in a standard length (30-30) action long enough to handle the .357 Rem Max/Super-Mag cartridges.
Could be wrong... Maybe Winchester made a Model 94 in .357 Mag with a standard action a long time ago, but you're still talkin' about a lotta' work to get it to handle the much longer cases. The first Marlins offered in .44 Mag were on full length 336 actions, so who knows?

GOOD LUCK! :wink:

unspellable · « **Reply #13 on:** August 31, 2004, 02:18:20 AM »

No, I don't have any idea what's involved i nthat sort of conversion. That's why I'm asking.

handirifle · « **Reply #14 on:** August 31, 2004, 09:53:47 AM »

unspellable,
I've read on this forum of some that have made the conversion and love it. Most do seem reluctant to shoot the shorter shells in it later though. Worried about "ringing" the chamber. That should only be an issue if you fired a LOT of them and cleaned too infrequently.

unspellable · « **Reply #15 on:** August 31, 2004, 10:51:54 AM »

The question of "ringing" the chamber by shooting short cartrdiges in it is the same as with a revolver or a 22 rifle.

But the question I keep trying to ask here is how well the lifter can handle all the cartridges in the 38 Special family with their widely differing lengths. I am assuming the lifter can be modified to handle any one of them, but can it be modified to handle all of them? (In practice, if I had a 94 set up to shoot the 357 Super Mag I'd probably use that cartridge 99.44 % of the time. I'd probably never use the 360 Dan Wesson but since it falls right in the middle for length it's probably not an issue anyway.)

These are in order of increasing OAL:

38 Special, 357 Magnum, 360 Dan Wesson, 357 Maximum, and 357 Super Mag

All of these cartridges are more or less identical in all dimensions except case length and OAL.

Much the same question applies to the 44 Russian family:

44 Russian, 44 Special, 44 Magnum, 445 Super Mag.

And the 41 Magnum family:

41 Special, 41 Magnum, 414 Super Mag

Gowge · « **Reply #16 on:** September 01, 2004, 05:01:14 AM »

Quote from: unspellable

The question of "ringing" the chamber by shooting short cartrdiges in it is the same as with a revolver or a 22 rifle.....

Not really - you're talkin' about a huge difference in chamber pressures...

Quote from: unspellable

........These are in order of increasing OAL:

38 Special, 357 Magnum, 360 Dan Wesson, 357 Maximum, and 357 Super Mag

All of these cartridges are more or less identical in all dimensions except case length and OAL.

Indeed - about like a .38spl compared to a cartridge the length of a 30-30.

Set these things side by side and think about it really hard. Might work to some degree in a single shot rifle, but a repeater or revolver would be a whole 'nother.

GOOD LUCK! :wink:

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

unspellable · « **Reply #17 on:** September 01, 2004, 07:50:05 AM »

What's chamber pressure have to do with this?

Here we are off on a tangent again. I keep trying to find out about lifter configuration vs cartridge length and get answers on everything but that.

alpacker · « **Reply #18 on:** December 15, 2004, 07:04:47 PM »

Why not ream out the chamber to .375 Winchester and neck the cases dowwn to .357.?

unspellable · « **Reply #19 on:** December 20, 2004, 07:45:43 AM »

For just sheer horse power in a Winchester Model 1894 there is a wildcat that dates back to around 1964 based on a shortened 458 Winchester case and using 458 bullets.

I ain't going there because a '94 stock is not the best one around for diustributing recoil and there would be plenty of it with 458 bullets in a light carbine.