Author Topic: 500gr .45-70 loads??? (Read 2568 times)

quickdtoo · « **on:** August 04, 2004, 11:38:52 AM »

Now I really got the bug!! :grin: I was at the sporting goods store where my huntin partner works, checkin out all the closeout stuff they have on sale. Found a box of Hornady 500gr RN #4504 .458 bullets for $10, he talked me into buying it along with a bunch of other stuff that I couldn't pass up. Anyone shoot this big a bullet in their NEF .45-70? Any recommendation other than to have my head examined for wanting to shoot this bruiser? I'd prefer to keep the loads on the light to moderate side but do not fear a heavy kicker, just respect it with proper technique and a bunch of padding and weight! :grin: I've looked at loads for this bullet on Steve's pages so I'm just lookin for anyone's experience with big bullets in the NEF. Thanks, Tim

http://stevespages.com/458_1_500.html

Deadeye47 · « **Reply #1 on:** August 04, 2004, 01:47:31 PM »

Those should be suffucient if ya ever want to knock a F-150 over on it's side Quickdtoo! :-D I bought a dozen solid jacketed 500 grainers awhile back at a gun show but haven't loaded them up yet...surely the BP guys can offer ya a smokeless load for those things......I have an old Lyman book that lists a 482 gr lead w/G.C. using 13 to 16 grains (MAX) of Unique for about 1160 fps on the max loading. Of corse the usual disclaimer is applicable.... :roll: That 13.5 grain Unique load is just about my most favorite load for 300 and 405 grain G.C. bullets and now it appears it might be the ticket for the 500 grainers too. :lol:

Big Blue · « **Reply #2 on:** August 04, 2004, 02:20:05 PM »

Tim,
My guess is that was made with a different cartridge in mind, possibly the 458 Win. mag. Of course if it will fit the chamber, it can be used in the 45/70. I believe J.B.Young makes bullets in that size for the 45/70. If those shoot anywhere as good as the 350 gr. RN Hornady, they should work great. Please keep us posted, I'd be interested to see your results. The largest I've used so far are the Cast Performance 420 gr. bullets, and they did very well from the BC, 1 1/8" groups at 50 yds. I've been getting the 350 gr. RN Hornadys to shoot 1.2" groups at 100 yards.
Don

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** August 04, 2004, 02:28:16 PM »

That light charge of unique might work, I figure I'm gonna need to use one of the loads that calls for a smaller charge of powder cuz of the space that bullet is taking up. I don't think I want to wait for the throating reamer or even do that if I can't work up a load for it that shoots good. The other thing I worry about is the loads on Steve's page are based on using his test gun of a ruger #3 which will handle considerably stouter loads than the NEF. Are the lighter loads still safe to shoot in the NEF?? I guess what I really need to know is how much powder will I be able to get in the case after the 500gr bullet is seated to the max OAL and also, is the MAX OAL on the NEF 2.55"??....I read about a simple method of checking the max OAL by pressing a bullet thru tissue paper into an empty case to hold the bullet secure enough to chamber the faux round then remove it and then make the measurement. Some recommended using a figure .030"-.050" less than than for the final OAL.

One of the other things I found on closeout at the store was a .45-70 Lee Loader for $10!!! :grin: That was a lucky one since it's the only Lee Loader he had in the store!! :-D

Big Blue · « **Reply #4 on:** August 04, 2004, 02:36:51 PM »

Tim,
The OAL of the cartridge varies greatly depending on the shape of the bullet your using. I had to play with the Barnes 300 and 400 gr. bullets to determine a working OAL for them. I just loaded it in the chamber with the bullet partially pressed into the case, and slowly and gently closed the chamber on them. They were a pointed bullet, and ended up getting stuck in the rifling, but were easy to pop out again. I did end up shooting some with the bullet just slightly pressed into the rifling.
Don

quickdtoo · « **Reply #5 on:** August 04, 2004, 02:40:03 PM »

Don, If you go to the load tables at Steve's page, he has 4 .45-70 loads, #4 is using the Hornady .458 500gr RN. He has listed the low and heavy charges as specified by 3 different loading manuals. I don't have a manual yet, but since his test gun is a Ruger #3, does that mean that the low end of the loads listed are only for level 3(bolt/heavy ss) firearms?

http://stevespages.com/table1.html

Big Blue · « **Reply #6 on:** August 04, 2004, 02:47:20 PM »

Tim,
Usually the high end level two loads overlap with the low end level three loads. At least that's the case with some of the published loads I've seen in Hodgdon annual manual. You might want to take a look at Handloads.com, in their Long Gun forum. A gent by the handle of Bentbarrel has been working on some 500 gr. 45/70 loads. He is also using a Ruger #3, but may have some info to share.
Don

Big Blue · « **Reply #7 on:** August 04, 2004, 02:52:37 PM »

Tim,
I just took a look at that post on Handloads, he is using 500 gr. Meisterbullets over 37.0 gr. of IMR 3031. It's considered a low end load for the Ruger #3. It pays to check different sources.
Don

quickdtoo · « **Reply #8 on:** August 04, 2004, 03:28:58 PM »

Thanks Don! Now to see if I can get anywhere near that underneath the 500 gr bullet in the NEF! :grin: That 500 gr bullet is really long in comparison to the 350 gr RN, 1.335" for the 500gr and .925" for the 350gr.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #9 on:** August 04, 2004, 04:43:32 PM »

I was just at Buffalo Bore's web site looking at their 45-70 "magnum" loads, looks like a 500gr jacketed bulllet at over 1600fps is safe in the NEF Handis according to them, so I'll look at shooting for that goal(no pun...) with reasonable accuracy. It looks like RL-7, IMR3031, IMR4198 and H4198 are the most reasonable powders to be using so I'll pick up a reloading manual for exact loads. Anyone got a recommendation on a manual? I've looked at Hornady, Speer and Lyman, still not sure what to get. I'm thinkin maybe the Hodgdon might be the best but haven't looked at one yet.

http://www.buffalobore.com

handirifle · « **Reply #10 on:** August 04, 2004, 04:54:26 PM »

Quick
I was told that the bullet makers test their loads in their manuals but Hogdons uses a lot of different bullets. That might be your best bet.

Ed Hill · « **Reply #11 on:** August 04, 2004, 05:48:54 PM »

Quick, I have the one book/one caliber 45-70 volume. Hornady has 7 different powders listed for 1500fps with a 500gr jacket bullet, all are shown as Ruger loadings. I just thumbed through the whole book and the only Marlin loads shown for a 500gr bullet are for cast lead.
Maybe the Hornady book would have additional loadings.

E.D.

Wlscott · « **Reply #12 on:** August 05, 2004, 03:20:06 AM »

Keep us posted on your progress and results with that 500 grainer.

I've got some friends that bought some buffalo. When they reach slaughter weight, we're going to shoot them. I'd like to take one with a 500 grain 45-70 load out of the H&R.

Cottonwood · « **Reply #13 on:** August 05, 2004, 04:01:32 AM »

Greetings guys

I use 500-gr cast Elk Busters all the time. I use 30.0 gr of 5744 for these, have never chrono'd these but they are sure dead accurate none the less.

Wlscott will be getting my cards and an extra one that was shot using these in my SB-2 Ultra. These are also a dead accurate bullet in the Buffalo Classic as well.

I have been using a super hard cast 500-gr for target shooting practice, I had a friend cast me some 30:1 soft cast for my hunting.

Longcruise · « **Reply #14 on:** August 05, 2004, 07:43:50 AM »

Quote

I read about a simple method of checking the max OAL by pressing a bullet thru tissue paper into an empty case to hold the bullet secure enough to chamber the faux round then remove it and then make the measurement. Some recommended using a figure .030"-.050" less than than for the final OAL.

Here is a link to my page that explains how to make a COAL gauge for just a few cents. Works every bit as good as the stoney point gauge!

Hope this link works for you. My web host is so slow that sometimes your browser just gives up :-)

If it don't work, I'll email it to you.

http://www.mikeswillowlake.com/coal_gauge.htm

I don't have a Handi NEF, but have played with several 45-70's and have found the prevously referenced One Book/One Caliber manual to be very handi :-)

One thing I'm fuzzy on is how the nef 45-70's are chambered. Is it the old style or the forcing cone style like you'd find on a modern rifle? If it's the old style you might find the seating depth to be kinda deep taking up some of the combustion area. Many of the lead loads for 500 grainers are for the old style bore ride nose bullets that don't seat all that deep.

Here's a 450 grain bullet that has shot very well for me when seated to just touch the lands. I shoot it at about 1450 or 1500 fps. Even as slow as 1300 fps this should be an all around killer. Especially witn an nef where it will kill all around the gun including at the butt plate :-D

http://mikealee.home.mindspring.com/images/450fn45-70.JPG

Wlscott · « **Reply #15 on:** August 06, 2004, 04:12:24 AM »

Quote

Here is a link to my page that explains how to make a COAL gauge for just a few cents. Works every bit as good as the stoney point gauge!

I've made two of these OAL gauges, one is for my 300WSM and the other is for my two .223's. I'm about to make another one in 45-70.

These really do work, and they're easy to build. I recommend that you try it out. Saved me some money anyway.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #16 on:** August 06, 2004, 05:48:25 AM »

Thanks for all the recommendations! :grin: Tim

quickdtoo · « **Reply #17 on:** August 10, 2004, 05:03:41 PM »

:roll:

Rigby275 · « **Reply #18 on:** August 10, 2004, 06:22:51 PM »

Hi all -

I don't know if the internal dimensions are the same as the new H&R/NEF's, but I have an old H&R Shikari, 28" barrel.

I've shot many Lee 500gr castgc (actual wt. 518/my alloy), sized .458, Alox lube, WLR primers, Win brass, 45.5gr IMR3031, o.a.l 2.780 seated to the crimp groove, chrono'd @ 1610 fps, avg., near moa avg. Prolly lose 200+ fps in a 22" barrel.
Best 3-shot group is 3/4" @ 150 yards.
NO LEADING! :wink:

I suspect this load is in the 30-33K psi range, but that's just an INTERPOLATED guesstimate.
However, over 120 rounds (plus several hundred lighter loads) have produced no measureable headspace increase, no discernable wear/tear anywhere except my shoulder.
It IS NOT a load for plinkin'!

FWIW, 48.0gr gives 1685 fps, moa'ish accuracy, no leading. YMMV.

I recently found a Lyman 535gr Postell mould (along w/a Rapine 510gr & Lyman 510gr, + a bottle of Rapine Mold Prep,all new for $45!) but haven't tried any yet.

I like big bullets at respectable velocities.

Regards,

Mitch in MI · « **Reply #19 on:** August 11, 2004, 12:29:09 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo

5) 26 gr, 61,067 psi, 1709 fps, primer is top hat and flowing,
action popped open and case ejected on firing shot

I always thought that Clark would have stopped there if he had any brains. I know he wasn't holding it near his face, but to hand hold a gun and stuff more powder in it after it started popping open was very foolish.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #20 on:** August 11, 2004, 05:12:16 AM »

Makes ya wonder where this guy's curiosity ends and commons sense starts! It does make me wonder what the proof loads are for the handi. :?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #21 on:** August 13, 2004, 05:30:16 AM »

Guess I won't be developing the load after all, got a reply from Hornady after asking this question:

Quote

I'm considering working up a load for my .45-70 using the #4504 500gr .458 Hornady RN bullet at approx 1500-1600fps. Would this be a good working muzzle velocity for good terminal performance or do you consider it too slow to be effective on elk to 150yds.

No! I would not recommend the Hornady #4504 .45 cal. (.458" dia.) 500 gr. RN bullet to be loaded in the .45-70 Gov't. case. The reason is that the bullet has a very heavy jacket and the muzzle velocity that is generated from the .45-70 Gov't. case will not expand the very heavy jacketed 500 gr. RN bullet. I would highly recommend the
Hornady #4502 .45 cal. (.458" dia.) 350 gr. RN bullet or the #4503 .45 cal. (.458" dia.) 350 gr. FP bullet for elk hunting. You will achieve better bullet expansion with either one of the 350 gr. bullets over the 500 gr. bullet.

The best to you in reloading, shooting, & hunting!
Lonnie Hummel

MSP Ret · « **Reply #22 on:** August 13, 2004, 05:40:35 AM »

Thanks for forwarding that info quickdtoo, I use and like the 350 grain Hornady FP bullet in my 45/70 Handi....<><.... :grin:

22KHornet · « **Reply #23 on:** August 13, 2004, 06:18:57 AM »

Garret loads up some real killers, but they cost a bloody fortune. Anyway I did fire a 540 grn hard cast hammerhead round through a ruger # 1 once ( and yes I do mean only once) and all I have to say is you guys are crazy :grin: . That thing kicked like a mule and dropped like a stone. Anyway good luck on the shoulder dislocter :-D

quickdtoo · « **Reply #24 on:** August 13, 2004, 07:02:59 AM »

There are several steps to take for recoil management that will take a lot of the kick out. I've got the laminated stock filled with lead for starters, then there's the limbsaver recoil pad and past magnum shoulder pad. Shooting from a standing bench is my last step to handle the recoil. I shoot 3.5", 2.25oz turkey loads in an 835 ultimag for turkeys, that's a good practice load for the .45-70! :grin:

Longcruise · « **Reply #25 on:** August 13, 2004, 08:10:33 AM »

Quote

There are several steps to take for recoil management that will take a lot of the kick out.

I'd still start low and work up!

When I still had my 45-70 barrel for my TCR 83 rifle, I loaded some mid range 500 grain loads with the lee 500 gr gas check design and found the recoil to be way too unpleasant for any practical application. My son in law is an ex football player and hard as nails so when he shot it I warned him about the recoil and told him to get a good tight grip. He shot if from an offhand stance and ended up with his thumb driven into his nose and a pretty bad nosebleed :shock: The TCR83 is a heavier rifle than the NEF and has better geometry to boot.

As far as the Garret loads go, heed 22khornet's warnings!! :shock:

BTW, it's not at all difficult to build your own "Garret" loads for the 45-70 with the proper mould at hand.