Which of the following are Grizzley Worthy?

[BattleRifleG3]

I may well never get to hunt Grizzley bear, but I've always wanted to have a gun that is capable of downing one just in case I'm hunting in their territory, even if for another animal.

So I'm looking towards eventually getting a gun with sufficient power to down one, with rapid reloading (ie pump, lever, or auto).  Note that I said power, not range.  My idea is never to hunt in griz territory alone, but to have one primary hunter with a long range magnum bolt action, and one backup hunter with a short range heavy stopper capable of fast follow up shots.

So there are a few rapid repeaters that seem like they may or may not fit the bill, and some that I've thought about custom making.  One of them is a Saiga semi-auto rifle to 444 Marlin.  (45-70 has been done)

So here are the rounds I'm considering that are available or that I'm seriously considering, and though I know some of them are Griz-worthy, I'd like a comparison.

338 Win Mag (BAR)
35 Whelen (Remington 7600)
444 Marlin (Levergun or Saiga conversion)
450 Marlin (Levergun or auto conversion)
458 SOCOM Monster (AR-15 conversion)
50 Beowulf (AR-15 or AKM Conversion)

[dawei]

So here are the rounds I'm considering that are available or that I'm seriously considering, and though I know some of them are Griz-worthy, I'd like a comparison.

338 Win Mag (BAR)
35 Whelen (Remington 7600)
444 Marlin (Levergun or Saiga conversion)
450 Marlin (Levergun or auto conversion)
458 SOCOM Monster (AR-15 conversion)
50 Beowulf (AR-15 or AKM Conversion)

FWIW I hunt in Grizzly Country; although not for them. I carry either a 444 Marlin® loaded with 300gr Speers or a Remington® 7600 35 Whelen loaded with 250gr Nosler® Partitions.

When I'm out & about & it's not hunting season I have a Mossberg® Mdl 500 in 20GA. I put the 18½" Cyl barrel on & load it with Brenneke® Slugs.

[Sourdough]

The .338 BAR, the .35Whelen Remington7600, the .450Marlin Lever Gun.  These are the three I would not hesitate to carry.  I live in Grizzly Country.  The .444 does not have a good selection of bullets, they are pistol bullets and not heavy enough constructed to smash through heavy bone.  Look at what the Guides carry up here, that will give you an idea of what works best.  One of the most popular guns for the guides is the venerable old 45-70.  I do not know anything about the  458 or the 50.

[Gowge]

G3, you got some excellent advice already, but here's an alternative you might wanta' consider.   There's a ton of excellent, used 458 Win Mag rifles around these days, and the 458 Lott has just been released in a factory load by Hornady.  Ruger offers one of their Safari Rifles in this chambering too.   It's basically just a longer version of the 458 Win. and you can shoot either cartridge in a re-chambered 458 Win Mag.  

You might enjoy reading this article about the cartridge.  

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/featured_rifles/buff_1124/

GOOD LUCK!   :wink:

[BattleRifleG3]

I'm a wee bit familiar with the Lott round, and am glad to see it gaining more acceptance.  If 450 Marlin is enough, I'd go for a rapid repeater chambered for it.  I've actually be thinking about a conversion offered by AccuracySystemsInc.  They will be rebarreling AR-10s to 450 Marlin.  

Now before anyone thinks I'm valuing firepower over skill and am being unsportsmanlike for wanting a military style rifle for griz, remember that the AR-15 is popular for varmint shooting due to its good ergonomics, high accuracy, ability to be accessorized, and ease in aiming fast.  Purpose for using an AR-10 is not to pump lead out as fast as I can pull the trigger, but to have follow up shots available at an instant without having to think about it in an adrenaline rush.  Figure make the first shot count, have two more to be sure, and ten more just in case.
Such a rifle would cost close to $2000 though.  A less expensive idea (closer to $500) was a Saiga rifle rebarreled to 444 Marlin, but bullet choice for that round doesn't seem as good for griz.

I figure such a 450 Marlin AR-10 could be excellent for hunting guides.  Anyone know what Alaska's laws are on types of weapons used for hunting?

[Gowge]

I see some feeding issues with both those cartridges in a semi auto.  The 450 is a belted cartridge, and while a controlled feed bolt action handles it OK, I'm not so sure about an auto.

The 444 is a good round, but I don't think it's worthy for hunting GRIZZ and the rim can cause feeding issues with autos too.   The 444 is basically a rimmed, blown out 30-06.   In fact, the first cases for this round were stamped 30-06 on the case head.  

IF I was gonna' go the AUTO route, I think someone alread mentioned the best solution - a BAR in .338 Win Mag.   IF you can get a semi-auto in .375 H&H, that would be even better!   :wink:

Maybe you can find a nice used BAR in a big caliber?  

My absolute minimum for a GRIZZ would be one of those new Benelli Auto 12ga with the big ol' Dixie Terminator Slugs.   Maybe that M3 Super 90 with EXTENDED MAGAZINE! ??  You can get fully rifled 12ga barrels for these shotguns (24") and at least you would be able to sling lotsa' lead!  Biggest problem with a 12ga, is the limited range with adequately heavy slugs.   A grizz can cover 100 yards in just a few seconds.   How fast can you shoot accrately at a charging BEAR?  

If you Google Grizzly Attack or Bear Mauling Alaska, you'll find lotsa' true stories about hunters who made mistakes and paid dearly.  A few have escaped with their lives.   Even an Alaska guide was recently mauled but managed to kill the bear with a lucky point blank shot with a .416 Remington Mag...  

I strongly advocate using the most gun you can handle  - and if you can't handle enough gun, don't go hunting Grizz.

GOOD LUCK!   :grin:

[dabigmoose]

 Well lets look at your choices
So here are the rounds iamb considering that are available or that iamb seriously considering, and though I know some of them are Griz-worthy, I'd like a comparison.

338 Win Mag (BAR)
35 Whelen (Remington 7600)
444 Marlin (Levergun or Saiga conversion)
450 Marlin (Levergun or auto conversion)
458 SOCOM Monster (AR-15 conversion)
50 Beowulf (AR-15 or AKM Conversion)

1. First most interior grizz probably can be taken with any of these calibers
Costal Brownies may be another story due to bullets and loads.But both deserve your upmost respect.

2. Lever actions and pumps are good choices  and the  444  ok if used by experienced big game hunter with Buffalo Bore Ammo or equal hand loads with a good 300gr bullet.
Also a lever action can be loaded while having a round under the hammer and not worrying about dropping  a clip as with some pumps ,autos.But some people carry spare ammo in just there pocket with other things
and when in a panicked  hurry i have seen a tube of chapstick stuffed in a magazine on a marlin 1895 45-70 levergun after 4 rounds into a bear luck
prevailed and the bear was dead in the alders and there was still one round in the chamber which actually was a good thing even though client didnt know the bear was dead he had presence of mind to load his gun
instead of chasing bear into alders even though he did stick a tube of chapstick in the magazine .He did learn from this experience and i bet he
doesnt carry anything else but ammo in his ammo compartment
black nylon elastic  ( on rear stock) or jacket pocket.
Belive it or not but this was not the first time or the last  i  seen this type of mistake occur.



3.Autos are a risk as a dangerous game rifles especially in a harsh climate
as we have with sideways rain and all the other stuff it carries into the action Such as spruce needles ,alder seeds and devils club and mud.Enough to foul up any auto loader and some other types of actions.
But if the auto were to be used go with the browning in 338 WITH A GOOD 250 GR BULLET.

4.IF hunting in Alaska and Your from out of state you are going to have to use a guide and he will probably narrow it down to the 338 browning , 35 whelen 7600 or 450 lever as most grizzz/brownies are taken at less than 100 yards and most guides like to get a lot closer than that i always liked less than 50 yards.

5.Some of these Bear hunts amount to no more than a bear dropping in his tracks being taken as he is sleeping or eating and never sees or smells
the hunter.But on the other side of the coin everything can go wrong from
as  a thumb stuck in the auto loader ripping the skin off trying to clear a jam, a clip trying to be put in upside down and dropped and the bear has already taken 5 rounds and is still coming after the client tried to hose the bear down with the auto when the bear did not drop after first round .The client still fishing in a panic for a magazine and has no were to go as the bear is coming straight down hill when the guide drops him with 1 well placed 375 HH round out of a model 70 safari grade winchester .

ALWAYS BE familiar WITH YOUR FIREARM AND PRACTICE dont JUST
COUNT ON FIRE POWER AND LOTS OF AMMO.I tend to agree with what
JJ Hack IN THE AFRICAN FORUM says you can be a hunter or a gun collector.
Dont get me wrong theres nothing wrong with a lot of firearms but
you need to become very good with the ones you are going to use
on hunts and the animals you hunt deserve no less than you being a
good humane shot and a woodscraft savy hunter.
Growing up in a Alaska village we usually had just a few  rifles and 1 or 2 shotguns and used them for everything we hunted .WE subsisted on wild game and fish and had to hunt or it was a hungry winter.
dabigmoose

[Dusty Miller]

Anybody who is genuinely concerned with this issue should get the gun he has decided to use and then practice until his shoulder is black and blue!!  Let it  heal up and then do it again!!  If it were my problem I'd stick to the .375 H&H because it feeds extremely well and the possibility of a jammed gun is remote.  But I'd make damned sure I could fire rapidly and hit the target in a fast breaking situation.  Go'n home with a bear bite on yer butt ain't no fun!!

[BattleRifleG3]

I totally agree that firepower can never be used to substitute for skill.  I wasn't thinking of having mag after mag ready, I was thinking of something that had 5-15rd available as soon as the latest shot was fired so I can stay on target.  I listed rounds that have been successfully used in a semi-auto.

The Saiga that I would convert to 444 Marlin is a 410 shotgun model which is based on the 7.62x39mm version.  This means that, pending confirmation of these specs by measurement, the 410 is overdesigned and can actually take as much force as the 7.62x39mm, which coincidentally I calculated to be the same as a 444 Marlin (assuming bolt force = chamber pressure x area of the round's interior base).  The same magazine should be able to feed it, which is 4rd.

A conversion of the AR-10 to 450 Marlin will soon  be offered by Accuracy Systems Inc.  A converted 20rd M14 mag would probably hold about 15rd of 450 Marlin.

458 SOCOM throws 300gr bullets at 640 m/s and 500gr at 427m/s.  45-70 factory loads throw a 300gr at 573m/s.  Any idea how the Socom would fair?
http://www.tromix.com/Tromix_458.htm
An AR-15 upper from Tromix would cost far less than an AR-10 one from AI, but the load would be closer to a factory 45-70 than a hot-loaded 45-70 that is 450 Marlin.
Price isn't horrible at $30/20rd.  I pay that much for 300 RUM.  Not a cheap blaster but that's not what it's for.

If an auto in 375 H&H has ever existed, I'd sure like to see it.  Highest I've ever seen in a BAR is 338 Win Mag, and a rare few Rem 7400s in 35 Whelen (I'd just as soon get the pump if I went Remington's way.)

Anyone have anything to say about 50 Beowulf?

For more power than the Win Mag, RND makes an AR type semi-auto in 338 Lapua.  But the price tag is $4000+ and it's gotta be one heavy bugger.

[Gowge]

.....The Saiga that I would convert to 444 Marlin is a 410 shotgun model which is based on the 7.62x39mm version.  This means that, pending confirmation of these specs by measurement, the 410 is overdesigned and can actually take as much force as the 7.62x39mm, which coincidentally I calculated to be the same as a 444 Marlin (assuming bolt force = chamber pressure x area of the round's interior base).  The same magazine should be able to feed it, which is 4rd.

IMHO, there's NO comparison between the 410, 7.62x39 and the 444 Marlin.  The 444 was created by adding a rim to a straight 30-06 case.   Performance and powder capacity is very similar to the 30--06 as well. Energy levels are easily double the little Russian cartridge...

Let me impress on you the importance of using an adequate cartridge for BEAR hunting - especially GRIZZ.    These animals will kill you and eat you when you make bad choices or poor decisions.   There's NO mercy when a big bear intends you serious harm.   Their strength is unmatched by any other carnivore in the World.   They're HARD to kill - and not in the same class as any thin skinned cats or wild boar, etc.  

Bear hunting ain't push button hunting like poppin' deer across a bean field or wide open country.   If there's a ZOO nearby, I suggest you go see Mr. Brown and get up close so you can appreciate him a bit more.  


http://www.absc.usgs.gov/research/brownbears/attacks/bear-human_conflicts.htm

IF there's one thing that gets more hunters in trouble with wild animals, it's having an attitude of contempt with regard to the animals' ability and the risks involved.      A lot of skilled guides, Professional Hunters and clients have been killed by the game animals they pursued.  

Get the military style "Black Rifles" out of your head and look at a serious high powered hunting rifle of the best quality you can afford.   Ruger offers a pretty nice Safari Grade rifle in .458 Lott.   Read about it here.  I think you'll benefit from the article in other respects as well.  
Here's an article about the 458Lott and Ruger's newest offering...

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/featured_rifles/buff_1124/

and....

http://www.african-hunter.com/Rifle_Choice_4_Dangerous_Game.htm
http://www.african-hunter.com/a_guide_to_rifle_choice_-_part_ii.htm
http://www.african-hunter.com/a_guide_to_rifle_choice_-_part_iii.htm


http://www.african-hunter.com/lessons_learned.htm

"To set the tone, I think nobody sums up the American attitude to rifles better than W.W. Greener in his classic book The Gun and its Development (1910 edition). “In no country are better sportsmen to be found than in the United States of America, nor does any country posses keener buyers or better men of business, yet in no country is so much worthless rubbish of the (mass production) gun-factories offered for sale. The Boers are a race of sportsmen, but it is of no use to offer them rubbish at any price, and the author can hardly believe that the astute American will sacrifice everything to cheapness”. That fortnight in the Zambezi valley showed that not a lot has changed in the last 90 years except that nasty rather than purely cheap describes most of America’s offerings in the dangerous rifle field."

GOOD LUCK!   :wink:

[BattleRifleG3]

If you're saying the 444 Marlin is inadequate, I'm all ears.  I haven't been impressed with the bullet selection for it so far.  True, it's no comparison for the 410...  What I'm saying is that a certain gun that could hold the pressures of 7.62x39mm, which are roughly the same as 444 Marlin, was used for the 410 for the sake of simplicity, and that 444 Marlin is using it to its potential.  I have heard quite a few say 444 is adequate.

458 SOCOM - If you think this is inadequate, than you think a factory load of 45-70 is inadequate.  Again, I'm all ears, so just say so.

450 Marlin - If you think this is inadequate, I'm all ears as well, but you're probably the minority view... but still worth hearing and considering.

As far as the rifle itself is concerned, yes it needs to be durable and reliable.  And making the first shot count, and any successive ones would be top priority.  No desire to blast or think that firepower can make up for poor skill or attitude.

But keep in mind...
The Mausers, Springfields, and 1917s on which many custom guns have been made in your recommended chamberings, and on which many modern (and occasionally inferior) sporting rifles have been designed, were the military rifles of the early century.  They were designed to fire the 30-06 cartridge.  The AR-10 is designed to fire the 308 round, which is almost as good as 30-06.  The Saiga rifles are the result of some really nifty innovations that allow actions designed to fire intermediate rounds to fire full powered rounds, such as 308 and 30-06.

We're basically talking about rifles designed for the same stuff in different time periods.  True, you won't see an AR-10 or Saiga in 458 Lott...  But aren't there plenty of decent bear hunters who use 45-70 and 450 Marlin?

As far as reliability goes, a correctly tuned AK (which is hard not to have) is more reliable than a bolt gun, because the action will cycle in the most adverse conditions and even a bolt gun can be screwed up by operator error.  The AR-10 would deserve a bit of tuning to make sure it will function in the northern environment, but if cared for properly it will function as well as anything.

I have every bit of respect for those with experience and for the dangerous and humbling nature of hunting brown bear.  I would never in a million years go without a friend, preferably one who knows more than me.  If a friend of mine with many years experience as a guide in Canada tells me to get the black rifles out of my head, I will bake you a cake... and eat it in your honor.    :wink:

And in any case, many thanks for the information and wisdom that you share.

[Gowge]

OK, in the most basic terms - here's what I'm trying to get across.   When you're out there a long ways - maybe days from any help except your hunting friend, you're betting your LIFE on the rifle and cartridge you have chosen.   It matters NOT whether a particular cartridge or caliber has taken thousands of BEAR over the past hundred years or not - it's the particular bear that's charging YOU right now that matters.    We can't order a small bear or medium sized bear when we're hunting.  Whatcha' gonna' do when you encuonter a 9x9 or heaven forbid, a 10x10?  
I'll say it once more - Mr. Brown can cover a hundred yards in a few seconds - then he's right in your face and ripping you apart if you haven't been able to connect with a bullet that can STOP a determined charge.   All that burned gun powder in the air just makes him more furious.   It ain't academic one bit - it's very serious stuff you're contemplating.    

You just can't tolerate any kind of malfunction in the rifle you choose when hunting dangerous game.  That's why the old SxS doubles were so popular for so many generations.  It's basically TWO complete guns - if one fails, the other complete gun is right there next to the first.   IF you choose a bolt action or any other action, a single malfunction of any kind means you can't shoot the charging animal.    

The 444 bullet selection is ample and adequate.   That ain't the problem with this caliber.   The problem is the chambering reamers available don't allow enough freebore or chamber to use long, heavy bullets.   Any 444 rifle meant for dangerous game should be throated to allow maximum loads with HEAVY bullets.

The 450 Marlin closely duplicates maximum 45-70 (hand)loads.   Basically, the new chambering helped Marlin offer a high performance 45-70 with a cartridge that couldn't be loaded into an older rifle that's not capable of handling the pressures...   Even so, it's possible to load a 45-70 to even higher levels for use in super-strong single shot rifles.

You might find this article on 45-70 leverguns of interest.   Be sure to scroll down to Level-4 loads.  

http://www.sixgunner.com/backissues/paco/4570leverguns.htm

GOOD LUCK!  

[WV Cowboy]

Even though I own my own gunshop in WV. I am by no means an expert. (Just a reasonably knowledgable individual) I think Gowge has given you some very good advice. The semi-auto is not a good choice in a dangerous game rifle. I personally would not even consider one. I also think the 458 Lott is an excellent choice.

[Lawdog]

Basically, the new chambering helped Marlin offer a high performance 45-70 with a cartridge that couldn't be loaded into an older rifle that's not capable of handling the pressures...

The above picture is of a Marlin Guide gun in .45-70 after a reloaded cartridge was fired.  The .450 Marlin will stand up to loads higher than the .45-70 due to it's thicker case.  This is according to the technicians at Hornady so flame them not me.  I am not saying that a Marlin Guide Gun in .450 Marlin will hold up any better just that the .450 Marlin has a stronger cartridge case.

So here are the rounds I'm considering that are available or that I'm seriously considering, and though I know some of them are Griz-worthy, I'd like a comparison.

338 Win Mag (BAR)
35 Whelen (Remington 7600)
444 Marlin (Levergun or Saiga conversion)
450 Marlin (Levergun or auto conversion)
458 SOCOM Monster (AR-15 conversion)
50 Beowulf (AR-15 or AKM Conversion)

I don’t like semi-auto’s due to the fact that for me they seem to jam up at the wrong time.  The .444 Marlin doesn’t have bullets heavy enough.  The .45-70(with loads within reality) is a good choice in the lever action Marlins.  Also the .450 Marlin(also in the Marlin lever action and the Browning BLR(allows you to use round nose and spitzer type bullets)) is a great choice.  My brother in-law used my Win. M70 in .450 Marlin to take his last Brown Bear in Alaska two years ago.  I don’t see any wildcat cartridge as being suitable as finding ammo if you loose yours becomes a big problem.  Lawdog
 

[BattleRifleG3]

Glad to see a bolt gun in 450 Marlin.  I'll have to check it out.

[Gowge]

Here's some more links that might be useful.

http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov/hunt_trap/hunting/huntak/huntak16.cfm

http://www.huntingmag.com/big_game/bear_busting/index1.html



GOOD LUCK!  

[Paparock]

:Deleted by Paparock

[BattleRifleG3]

Ok, with the options narrowed down a bit, I'd like an opinion on how factory loads of 45-70 would compare to factory loads of 444 Marlin and if either would be an acceptable choice.  Even if there are better choices, I'd like a comparison of those two, and if either or both are up to the job, or if the suggestion of using factory loads of 444 Marlin or 45-70 gives you hesitation, not just thoughts of a better choice.  They can be any bullet choices as long as the pressures match factory loads.

Say you had the hypothetical choice to use those factory loads (with the bullets of your choice) or not do the hunt at all.  Would you do the hunt amidst their limitations, or are their limitations so bad that you consider them unacceptable?

[Daveinthebush]

Lots of advice but one more comment.  Forget the wildcats and the new rounds.  Stay with the basic ammo that is in village stores around Alaska. If you and your ammo get seperated you can easily find: .338, 30/06, .375, and even in Elim Alaska.... .35 Whelen.  

I have never seen a lever action in a native village (dabigmoose: am I correct here, or just not looking hard enough).

My own choice is a 7600 in .35 Whelen.  As many of these as I have probably helped sell, Remington should make a stainless one up for me.  Just a Christmas wish.......sigh  :grin: :yeah:

[Paparock]

Deleted by Paparock

[BattleRifleG3]

I sure would like to see a better selection of bullets for 35 Caliber as well.

[reyn 61]

I read an article one time pertaining to the .338 in the BAR compared to the bolt action. The author stated that due to the recoil of the .338 an auto wouldnt be any better due to the fact the time it takes to recover and get back on target from the recoil and hit what your aiming at. Ive never owned one but for those that do,would you agree or not?

[armymp71]

Here is my two cents:

Stay away from the beowulf, the velocity is not there, I have used this gun on bear, but only on a treed black bear at 15 yards. I have a 450 Marlin, but again used only on black bear. I used a 375 remington ultra mag on my costal brownie and I leveled him quartering away  from me at 150 yards on the first shot. I have since switched to the 416, but if you look at these calibers the muzzle velocity is tremendous. For example, the 416 @ 300 yards has the same muzzle velocity as a 30-06 at the barrel. Chances are you will shoot your bear much closer, and when you hit him, it is like smacking him with a brick wall with 5000 ft pounds of pressure. Good luck.

[oso45-70]

Common sense dictates that you use some thing that is tried and proven.
In my opinion it would be foolish to try some thing like what was mentioned above to hunt a big bear or a bear of any size for that matter.

            ..............Joe..............

[BattleRifleG3]

I had the impression that a hot loaded 45-70, which a 450 Marlin matches, is a good griz round.  Not so?  And is 444 Marlin really that far behind?

I'm just a young guy trying to learn what I don't already know, so no presumptions here.

[Thebear_78]

If your in the mood for something off the wall I saw a Browning BAR that was rebarreled to 416 Taylor.  From what I've seen on the 416 taylor is basically a 338 blown up to 416 caliber.  That would make a good big game rifle.  

My own bear country arsenal is a Ruger 77 in 35 whelen with 250gr Hornady RN @ 2450fps, a Marlin 45/70 with 400gr kodiak JSP @ 1850fps, they shoot really close to my deer/moose load with the 405gr Rem JSP.  I have been wanting to load up some good hard cast loads with 420gr Crater light but haven't gotten around to it yet.   I have a buddy that uses a 338/378 weatherby, talk about some whomp.  

The only thing wrong with the 444 is the poor bullet selection.  THe 45/70 is proven and the marlin lever gun is hard to beat.

[BattleRifleG3]

What about a 300gr flat soft point in a 444 Marlin?  Too small?

I wonder how hard rebarreling a BAR would be, say to a 45 Caliber WSM wildcat.  And I wonder if the Benelli R1 would be better or worse for that job.  I'm currently rebarreling an AKM to 35 Remington.  For odd calibers, the AK is hard to beat, but it's limited to intermediate pressure rounds.  Might be able to do an AK in 444 Marlin.

On the subject of 338s, what bullet design would be best, and how effective would that caliber generally be?  If I go the bolt gun route I might do 338 RUM.  Course if I was thinking of Africa I'd go 375 RUM or H&H.

[Sourdough]

I keep seeing people ask about the .444 Marlin.  The problem is the bullets are not designed to hold together and bust through heavy bone.  They are devastating on whitetail which is where it needs to stay.  
 
Here in Grizzly country the most popular round by far is the .338 Win Mag.  The second is the .375 H&H, then comes the 300 Mag, 45-70, 450 Marlin, .35 Whelen, .458 Win Mag, 30-06.  That's about all I usually see, occasionally an 8MM Norma Mag, or one of the .41s.
 
The most popular action is bolt and levers, with single shots, then pumps.  Very very few simi-autos.  
 
After you've seen a few mauling victims you get real picky about what you carry.  You darn sure want to be sure it is going to work, and that you can shoot it well.  Practice, practice, practice, till you throw it up and shoot without thinking about what you are doing.  Also reload immediately just as automatically as shooting.  Most people shoot, then check the animal, then reload is needed.  That's wrong in Grizzly country.  Like Dave-in-the-bush that's why I carried pumps for many years.  I shoot skeet with pump shotguns, then when carrying a pump rifle it is automatic to reload, just like shooting skeet.  I now carry a single shot rifle, and am ready for a second shot usually before my partner is ready with his bolt gun.

[pastorp]

reyn61, I'll comment on your statement that the recoil on the 338 bar would give no second shot advantage over a bolt gun.

For a while a few years ago I owned a 338 bar with the boss on it. I also owned a stainless synthetic bolt action 338. The recoil from the bar was about equal to a bolt308 in my opinion. The second shot was very fast, and the rifle seamed reliable. However I never trusted it as a bear gun. When brown bear hunting I carried the bolt gun.

There is a reason the african hunters carry bolt guns, They work.

To the original poster in this thread. You don't seam to get it. If you want to play with the semi-autos and wildcat cartridges thats ok and fun. But not for a rifle you intend to use as a stopper. Regards, Byron

[BattleRifleG3]

Well, my take on autos, with experience with quite a variety, is that while not all autos are reliable as bolt guns, some are.  I must say that I've had more jams from Mossberg Pump shotguns and Mosin, Savage, and Remington bolt action rifles than I have from my three Saiga semi-auto rifles, ie none, save my 308 after a drastic interior conversion.  I'd have to say that between all my auto-loading and manually operated guns, none of which were cheapie non-brands, reliability was about the same.

A simple fact is that when powered and fed correctly, the AK action is the most reliable action on the planet.  That doesn't mean absolutely every AK is perfect in function, but unless you have a dud, it will perform just as it has during all your testing.  The drawback is that it isn't chambered for the rounds suitable for grizzley bear hunting.

I do happen to have the habit of reloading as soon as I fire, and would suspect, as posted, that it's crucial in bear hunting.  Among hunting guns, my preference does seem to be bolt action, and perhaps as fast as I'm used to reloading a bolt gun, especially a really stiff Mauser, I may be effective enough with one of those.  But I would say that my best operation skills are with semi-auto rifles.

While I think dangerous game semi-autos deserve more attention to development, understand that the reason I'm asking all this is to figure out what sort of round it takes among all the comments I've heard.  Semi-autos like the Rem 7400 set poor examples for reliability and accuracy in semi-autos, and people really ought to be aware of what's out there that's much much better.

So here's a question - what bullets does the 444 Marlin lack which make the 458 caliber rounds (45-70, 450 Marlin, 458 Win Mag) so much more attractive?