Author Topic: LEOs how would you rate??  (Read 2806 times)

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Offline lostone1413

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LEOs how would you rate??
« on: August 07, 2004, 09:02:38 AM »
On an average how would you rate the marksmanship of the average LEO Then how would he rate with the average recreational shooter? I for one feel that the average LEO is no better or worst then the average recreational shooter and if you took the average LEO in say an anti-gun state like say Illinois that his shooting wouldn't be on par with the average recreational shooter in a gun friendly state say AZ because the one in the gun friendly state would be shooting allot more. You agree or disagree??

Offline Mikey

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« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2004, 02:30:35 AM »
lostone - I would say that average LEO marksmanship is one good reason why so many citizens own guns for their own protection (lol).  :-D   Mikey.

Offline Brett

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« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2004, 02:52:30 AM »
Three of the four LEO's that I have known personally were not "into" guns and shooting and did little if any recreational shooting  The only time they did any target practice is when qualifications were coming up and they were generally pretty stressed about it.  :lol:
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Offline BlkHawk73

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« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2004, 04:01:27 AM »
when I took qualifying at the academy many had never fired a gun at all or at least very little.  Just because a LEO carries a gun as part of his/her job doesn't mean they go to the range every day off.  Most will never ever use thier gun except for qualifications.  Those that enjoy firearms as a hobby will practice more often as it IS a hobby for them.  Don't see LEOs practicing high speed manuvers either.  :wink:
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Offline myronman3

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« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2004, 04:53:06 AM »
well i aint no cop, but i will say that out of all the stupid things i have seen done with a gun,  police officers (folks that should know better) have been responsible for about 75% of it.   the worst was one officer trying to dispatch a car hit deer.  the deer was flopping around and the second we pointed it out to the officer,  he starts blazing away like he is in a fight for his life.  problem is that directly behind the deer was a house.  so where to you suppose the misses and ricochets went?  we started yelling and hollaring while he was blazing away.  he stopped shooting and couldnt understand why we were yelling at him.  ABSOLUTE MORON.  
   one of my closest friends is a leo and the stories he tells makes you want to puke.   and everytime i see him he has new ones.   i deal with some real winners in my proffession; but at least i dont have to depend on my screwed up co workers to back me in hairy situations.   although it makes me wonder about every leo i meet,  but it also makes me really respect the few really good ones.

Offline DEPUTY

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« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2004, 08:46:21 AM »
most are not gun people, in the leo world the basis now is less than leathal.  my team i work with shoot quite often weekly and high speed drills, low light, speed rocks, downed postions shooting on the move, and shooting from inside the car. one of my guys was shot by another agency officer on a high risk raid  with a shotgun, at 4 feet he took pellets in the vest. and thigh this officer recoved held his postion and still managed to keep his head! why training we train real world with simuntions as in we shoot one officer while he is on the range with his gun simuntions loaded as well! we train to the realest we can! and to some of the most extreme  condtions possible! but we are the exception, some call us  nuts  blood thirsty, etc... we just laugh and say yeap we are. i also teach a lot of these skills to ccw holders here in michigan as well! we train to live train to win.

Offline Lawdog

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« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2004, 10:38:14 AM »
Let me add this to what has already been said(and that I have to admit that most is so very true).  I have had the privilege of working as an LEO in both in the city and country environments.  Most city police are darn glad when they qualify for the department where the country cop is usually a recreational shooters.  I know that qualifying scores are higher in our rural department than ever in the city where I worked.  While the money isn’t as good as in the city, the environment is a whole lot better.  Lawdog
 :D
Gary aka Lawdog is now deceased. He passed away on Jan. 12, 2006. RIP Lawdog. We miss you.

Offline S.S.

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« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2004, 07:23:06 AM »
I was in law enforcement for 8 years, and a large number
of the patrolmen only shot to qualify every 6 months.
In most places today. there is simply not any access to shooting
ranges!  We would have to drive to the Academy to qualify!
I was in a Different unit than patrol which required a qualification
score of 98 or better, and I averaged 300
rounds a week expended. I was blessed with a large tract
of property and I have a 100 yd. Range so I have plenty
of range time.
   One Officer who worked for the local college literally had to tap
his Cylinder open with a rubber mallet at the range. His gun had
not been out of it's holster since the last time he had to qualify!
The Cartridges had built up corrosion in the Cylinders and had to be tapped out too. This is their commanding officers fault to me!
Did they not have any type of weapons inspection?
    So to answer the original question; No, Most officers do
not shoot on a regular basis, and I would bet that the larger portion
of those who qualify barely make it!
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Offline Old Griz

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« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2004, 09:50:44 AM »
:cb2: We had a local LEO here fire 31 rounds into the backseat of his squad car at two handcuffed men (one with a small caliber pistol), while standing on the trunk of the car, and didn't hit either one of them! You would think 1 out of 31 would have hit someone at that range even by accident!
Griz
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Offline papajohn428

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« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2004, 01:21:10 PM »
As a former range officer for a couple different departments, I can assure you the average recreational shooter is generally more competant than the average cop with their weapons, especially handguns.  Some of my officers would come to me for practice time at the range a month before qualification, because they knew their skills were um, "deficient".  And quite often, it took a month to get them up to snuff!  Good thing they weren't involved in any shootings the week before they came in, eh?

The most recent stats I've seen for officer-involved shootings put the usual range at between 5 and twenty feet, and officers miss about 70% of the time.  Between the lack of training and the adrenaline dump, most just start blazing away, as the previous post suggests.  

I left LE six years ago, but took most lessons with me.  I still work armed, and for that reason alone I try to practice with my sidearm twice a week.  Most of my practice is rapid fire at close range, as I suspect if I ever have to shoot on the job it will be at Halitosis Range.  I also practice with my speedloaders, in case that "70%" figure applies to me that day.  The one thing I repeatedly tell myself when practicing is what to focus on, my mantra as the gun comes up is, "Front sight.......press!" when the shot looks right.  Bowling pin shooting is a great training aid, I did 350 rounds on pins yesterday, and still missed more than I should.  I think often of Ross Seyfried's advise on shooting under stress, when he said, "You can't MISS fast enough to catch up!"  It also applies to Serious Social Situations.

Papajohn the Practicing Pin Pounder
If you can shoot home invaders, why can't you shoot Homeland Invaders?

Offline stoney pete

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« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2004, 06:53:38 AM »
My neighbor is an LEO and his wife and I were talking guns.  She's more afraid of her husband will be shot in the back by his backup than buy a criminal.
"Certainty of death. Small chance of success. What are we waiting for?" - Gimli, Lord of the Rings, Return of the King.

Offline IntrepidWizard

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« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2004, 07:08:30 AM »
The difference between expert on the range and effective in a fire fight are humongous.when the adrenaline and is moving and uncertainty is everywhere any LEO can miss as can any of you experts.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! Like fire, it is
a dangerous servant and a fearful master. -- George Washington

Offline ediehaskell

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« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2004, 03:11:02 PM »
I'm not sure of the current LEO marksmanship here in NW Montana. However, they have been some real serious shooters in local and national competitions, both with handguns and rifles. Ad Clark was COP up here for years, and anyone who kept up on national scores knew him. Magazine reports would read, "Ad Clark was at the shoot. Secound place went to... "
I shoot various tactical type competitions with various LEO deprtments up here. All I can advise is, if you are going to go on a shooting spree, don't do it in Montana. You aren't going to get to enjoy life for very long.

Offline Paul Barnard

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« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2004, 01:13:54 PM »
I don't know which way I lean on this one.  Part of me wants to say the recreational guy because he wants to shoot.  I have been through a number of different police courses with several agencies.  The average cop certainly gets better training, albeit to no avail in some circumstances.

Today I went to the range.  I did pretty good until I challenged myself with some new things.   I certainly wasn't proficient, but I continuously strive for improvement.

Someone mentioned that three out of four cops don't shoot recreationally or give a flip about guns.  That's pretty close to my observations as well.  I would say more on the order of 1 out of 10 though.  I am part of a 40 man unit.  I am the only one who shoots regularly off duty.  There are some who shoot better than I do, but none train off duty.  Beyond the mechanical training, I place as much emphasis on mental preparation for armed confrontation.

Good Topic,
Paul

Offline papajohn428

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« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2004, 04:02:21 PM »
95% of the guys I work with don't practice, and very few ever think they will ever have to use their weapon on duty.  One guy I worked with told me he hadn't passed qualification, but the instructor let him through anyway, figuring it wouldn't ever matter.  I told him if he ever drew his weapon in a "serious social situation", I'd shoot him first, and worry about the bad guys after that.  I don't want him hitting me first, and taking me out of the fight, when my practice routine of 300-500 rounds a week might make a difference!

Papajohn
If you can shoot home invaders, why can't you shoot Homeland Invaders?

Offline Paul Barnard

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« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2004, 04:04:15 PM »
Papajohn, 300-500 rounds a week is some serious shooting brother!  I wish I had the time and money to do it.  I know what you mean about the range instructors "trying to be nice" and adding a few points.  I'm not an instructor, but I will not allow that to happen in my presense.  That's a bunch of crap.  It riles me up to just think about it.  It is not nice, it is unfair.  It cheats everyone.

Oh well, glad to see a few brothers in blue taking it so seriously.

Paul

Offline papajohn428

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« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2004, 07:35:21 PM »
The older I get, the harder it is to maintain what I consider adequate skill with a pistol.  In my 20's it came easily, these days it takes a lot of time and ammo.  There was a large discussion here at work today when I mentioned that on my only day off this week, I stayed home and loaded 1500 rounds of ammunition.  They were horrified when I told them that would last me three or four weeks.  Now I'm considered some kind of a wacko, because I practice with my duty gun!  I asked my captain when he last practiced with his sidearm, and he didn't remember.  Then I asked him what his qualification score was.  He didn't remember, so I called the range and had them look it up.  Passing score is 70%, his score was 71.5!  (Mine was 98.2.)  I hope he never needs to do any shooting, there are a LOT of "potential victims" around here! :shock:

Papajohn the "Practicing" Psychotic
If you can shoot home invaders, why can't you shoot Homeland Invaders?

Offline jhm

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« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2004, 04:33:47 AM »
My son-in-laws dept. gives their officers 200 rounds each month to practice with and he needs every one of them to stay decent,  :-D  :-D  :D    JIM

Offline corallus2000

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« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2005, 10:52:45 PM »
when i picked up my sig p239 it was a leo trade in. cop said he carried it for two years. this gun is 90% new and just as tight as new

Offline R. Tillery

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« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2005, 03:25:56 AM »
As a former LEO, I have worked with several SE agencies. I believe there is a connection between where an officer lives and his firearms ability. Officers born and raised in the South 'seem' to be more familiar with firearms than officers from other areas of the country. As for myself, I began shooting when I was 4 years old. At my last qualification, I shot (6) PERFECT scores, outshooting every member of my department's TacTeam. :lol:
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Offline rockbilly

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« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2005, 03:26:08 PM »
:) This really brought a smile to my face, it reminded me of a conversation with the Wing Commander while stationed in Spain with the Air Force.  I was at the range one day "goofing off" with the range master, we were shooting at crossed staples in a target at about 7-8 yards when the "Wing King" walked up.  He asked what we were doing and the range master told him we were practicing in case there was an armed robbery at the base exchange.  He told him " both our wifes work there and since the Security Police can't shoot we thought if there were a need we would both respond to keep our wifes from getting shot."  I know for a fact that that most of the Security troops could not qualify with either the .38 or .45 yet that was the weapon most had strapped on.

Thanks for bringing this up, and Mr.  Stacy "Tank" Young if you are out there I'm sure you have a smile on your face  too..............

Offline BamBams

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« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2005, 02:48:13 AM »
In IPSC we get alot of LEO competitors showing up at the local matches.  They seem to be average shooters for the most part.  I think IPSC should be MANDATORY for ANY LEO, or anyone else who carries for self defense. IDPA wouldn't be a bad choice either.

I can recount stories of shootouts with the Colorado Springs Police Dept.  One comes to mind where two officers expended over 20 rounds at a suspect at less than 10 yards in an alley.  The suspect was kneeling on the ground and shooting back.  Only ONE shot hit the suspect, in the leg, because it ricocheted off the pavement.
NRA Handgun Instructor

Offline LMM

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« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2005, 08:51:58 AM »
Panic Shooting! I believe that occurs alot more than we know.

The big problem with LEO's is there trained to "qualify".

Most have no training for tactical or combat situations.
LMM


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Offline rockbilly

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« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2005, 05:47:20 AM »
If there is any accuracy in TV shows like "Cops", then it's evident that most LEOs don't know squat about firearms.  I was watching one show where three-four cops couldn't figure out how to remove the magazine from a Colt 1911.  Another one referred to a (what appeared to be a model 60 marlin) as a .22 caliber assault rifle.  Thats just a few of the things I've seen.  No wonder us gun owners get a bad smear in the news when the cops are providing such crap to reporters, and they spreading it on the news.  It makes all of us look like a bunch of thugs.

I'm not against LEOs, I think most of them are great people and a real necessity to society, it's just the dummys that burn my butt. :roll:

Offline Lawdog

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« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2005, 11:31:08 AM »
So called “real life" shows on TV(like Cops) are filmed in large metropolitan areas and not in your smaller cities, townships or counties.  I started my career in a large city(S.F. Bay Area) then moved back home to “Gods Country”(the boondocks) and the difference was amazing.  I would venture to say that 70% of the officers in the city barely qualified(and were happy to do so) where as over 90% of the officers in the “boondocks” practiced weekly and qualified(and better) easily.  The metropolitan officers before the start of their shift or at the end of would talk about most everything but hunting/shooting.  The small city or county officers talked about little else.  It all depends on the area.  Lawdog
 :D
Gary aka Lawdog is now deceased. He passed away on Jan. 12, 2006. RIP Lawdog. We miss you.

Offline papajohn428

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« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2005, 07:44:15 AM »
My last department had me put together a pamphlet for our own officers, on how to render numerous firearms safe.  We rounded up as many different guns as we could, included a drawing of each, and gave complete clearing instructions.  A month after it was distributed, a fellow cop nearly shot his foot off because he didn't know what he was doing, and didn't bother to read the pamphlet.  This was the same guy we had to spend an extra week with in transition training, when we switched to Berettas.

You can't fix stupid!

Papajohn
If you can shoot home invaders, why can't you shoot Homeland Invaders?

Offline Lawdog

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« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2005, 09:26:09 AM »
Papajohn,

 :-D
Quote
You can't fix stupid!
:-D

I hear that.  Not long after I joined the force in Oakland we had one old officer that retired.  When he turned in his S&W M10(the weapon he had been issued 20 years before) you couldn't remove the cartridges from the cylinder due to them being corroded so badly in the cylinder.  Found out that he hadn’t qualified in over 5 years.  Somehow he had been over looked.  Gives one faith in your back-up doesn’t it.  Lawdog
 :D
Gary aka Lawdog is now deceased. He passed away on Jan. 12, 2006. RIP Lawdog. We miss you.

Offline papajohn428

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« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2005, 05:03:39 AM »
LawDog, you just reminded me of my favorite Lieutenant.  Ralph was a dinosaur of the first magnitude, and was the closest thing to an FTO I had.  He knew I was "gunny", and quickly appointed me as the new "Armorer's Assistant", a nice name for the guy who gets to clean everyone else's guns after qualification.  Since I was a rookie, I thought it was pretty cool.  One day we were talking guns and I asked Ralph what kind of a backup he had.  He mentioned an old Smith.  When I asked him where he carried it, he said it was in his glovebox in his personal car, and would I mind cleaning it up a bit?  I retrieved it, in a very old leather IWB holster, that had literally molded itself onto the gun.  I spent all day trying to get it free, and finally told Ralph his holster was toast.  I took the gun home, got the grips off, and dunked the whole mess in a bucket of solvent.  It took two days, and the cartridges still had to be pounded out of the cylinder, covered in the nastiest verdigris you ever saw, more like barnacles.  By the time I got it all apart the solvent was ruined.  Good thing he hadn't needed it, it wouldn't have gone off if it fell into a fire!  :roll:

Papajohn
If you can shoot home invaders, why can't you shoot Homeland Invaders?

Offline Doc TH

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« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2005, 06:27:29 PM »
I have had similar experiences as most of you.  Unfortunately, most LEOs I have observed at various ranges are not very proficient.  Here in the Wash-Balt area we have had a number of shooting incidents wherein LEOs and miscreants expended lots of rounds (20+) at each other with the only damage occurring to nearby houses and cars.  Also had one county PO shoot a young woman with his shotgun; only thing in her hand was a bag of potato chips.

Offline papajohn428

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« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2005, 10:51:02 PM »
While most younger cops take pride in their Q-scores, and practice when they know they need it, that tends to go out the window after a few years.  Our PD had the only range around, so we would let other local departments use it for QQ, quarterly qualification.  One department was asked to find another range after a captain and a detective nearly destroyed our range with AD's, the detective was trying to qualify with an unfamiliar shotgun, and blew out two lights in the ceiling.  He later became Chief of his department, and reportedly went unarmed 90% of the time.   :roll:   Some role model!

Papajohn
If you can shoot home invaders, why can't you shoot Homeland Invaders?