Pics of my grizz and our rides

[264 WIN MAG]

If anyone wants to see some pics of my wheeler or some of the stuff we ride in here is the link:

http://community.webshots.com/user/mud_monster_grizz

I ride a 2004 Blue 660 Grizzly set up with: 28x10.5 Outlaws (front) & 28x12.5 Outlaws (back) mounted on ITP Cast Aluminum Wheels, Highlifter Outlaw Super Duty Clutch Kit, Highlifter Temperature Gauge, K&N Air Filter, DynoJet Kit, Snorkeled, Rear Hubs Flipped, Highlifter Lift Kit, Highlifter Radiator Power Washer, and 2.5 Warn Winch

[markc]

while it looks like fun, thats not mud brother.  Thats muddy water.  I have some experience with really deep mud, without the brown water, on a Grizzley 660 also with 589's.   We didn't need to be winched out like your pic's 031-032 show.  Did it drown or what?  

Not to take away from youngsters having fun or anything, but joy riding in the muddy water is a totally different thing than reaching far away back country on a camping or hunting trip where your rig is your life.  I can't see anything in those pic's that would stall a 6X6 or 8X8 and require a winch, since they float on water.  

Anyway, glad you added some pic's, but I didn't see the ground clearance your previous posts mentioned, or the serious riding in areas unreachable by other quads.  
markc

[264 WIN MAG]

Markc, you should really ask before you start telling what’s what. The picture you talk about where I am on the front rack and I have my hand down, there is a reason I took that picture that way. http://community.webshots.com/photo/130556616/130557256QgasHu I am touching the top of the mud with my finger. You drop into that hole and there is only about 3in. of water in it and you sink out of sight in mud. That is what we call bottomless mud that people with 589’s are scared of. I made this hole myself and I assure you that I have brought many atv’s here and nothing has made it down the canal into the pond without winching.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/159811494/159813427YVXsto maybe you should go look at the rest of my pictures before you start to judge what is water and what is mud. http://community.webshots.com/photo/159821222/159823858aFNnSZ http://community.webshots.com/photo/173005067/173006033IroGWs

You don’t see any clearance? http://community.webshots.com/photo/130752017/130752252LrPZHk My wife is 5’6” and my Grizzly was almost shoulder height to her before I lifted it 3”. http://community.webshots.com/photo/130752017/130752210fyBoWy This is sitting beside a Honda 300 with a lift kit and 25” mud tires…..the Grizzly is bone stock except for the tires.

You talk about riding a Grizzly with 589’s comparing it to where we ride??? A Grizzly with 589’s won’t make it 2ft. in the stuff we ride in. 589’s are a sorry mud tire. I am not trying to shoot you down, but someone who thinks a 589 will go where an outlaw gets stuck just doesn’t know what they are talking about.

[markc]

Don't worry about trying to shoot me down, you can't.  Many times, someone as young as yourself begins to think that their limited experience in whatever hobby or profession they choose makes them more of an expert and more knowledgable than others who have been doing it longer than they have been alive.  

I looked at all of the pictures that you listed links for and honestly feel that most of what you have posted is baseless bragging and displays your ignorance more than your expertise.  Like I said before, you joy riding in a mud hole you said you created (accessed by a dirt road?) is nothing compared to what these more experienced riders do when they travel to far away back country on their rides and multi wheeled rigs.  

These same riders are the ones you trashed when you began to brag about how you and your grizz can out run,manuver, drive, negotiate, or whatever.  Enjoy your grizzley, but son, you need to get out of your dream world if you think an ITP 589 tire can't handle mud or that you ride in mud that no one else but you can handle.  

I would draw your attention to a couple of sites where experts who do it for a living attest to the tires performance.   www.atvoutfitters.com and www.utilityoffroad.com   589's are scared of?  Maybe in your home town, but it's just a tire, not a person, it is a well designed tire, which is why it is offered by atleast 3 different tire manufacturing companies that I know of  Essex, Titan and ITP.  Because it works. I know, I've tried them on a grizzley in mud and hard pack.  You can read of a real professional test of the tires performance at utilityoffroad.com   Somehow I don't think you are more qualified to give a review than the numerous others who have already tested the tires performance and do it for a living.  Be open minded and read the reviews.  

Once again, I never said a word about outlaw tires did I?  re-read my post and see.  Those are good tires as well, but remember you bought them, you didn't design and produce them.  You chose them, but that doesn't make you or your choice better than someone else who made a different choice.

Your pic of your grizzley stopped in the water appears to me that it is not running.  Are you telling me that the motor is still running?  Don't see any evidence of that in that still water.   If I am incorrect about that, then accept my apology.   Judge? Isn't that why you posted the pic links?  Or was it just so we could all see how awsome you are and your grizzley?  It's water splashing all over.  You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that in your pic's.

You apparently can't read well.  My post says I didn't see the ground clearance your previous posts mentioned,  not that I didn't see any ground clearance at all.  Don't judge son if you don't read the post correctly.
 
I am asking you to check your ego at the door.  This forum is for folks who enjoy atving in all of it's forms.  If you want to brag about how much badder you and your ride are than any one else, then there are forums better suited to you than this one.  

Offer helpful advice and share good or even bad experiences on atv's side by sides or multi wheeled off road vehicles, but do not attack others and do not brag about what you could do to them if they came to La to ride in your favorite location.  It is counter productive to the forum and stirs up hot tempers and ill will.  It sounds a bit like kids bragging about whose dad can beat up who.  
markc

[264 WIN MAG]

Limited experience. I don’t think I am the one with limited experience when it comes to the mud and when the going gets tough. Like I told you before you are more than welcome to come to the High Lifter forum and see what mud riding is about. You say that you have been doing this longer than I have been alive and if you want to believe that go right ahead. You can’t judge what a person knows by how old they are and if you think this is the case than you are clearly living in a dream world.

Displays of ignorance more than expertise? Being able to make it through the things we pass through requires more skill than just gunning the throttle and holding on. I probably have more technique in my pinky finger than most have in their entire body, and that is not bragging either, that is just the cold hard truth. Yes, I did create that one particular mud hole and it is very bad. What does it matter if that hole is in my backyard or 10 miles from the nearest house? That doesn’t make the hole any worse does it? More experienced riders? I am sorry but what you consider more experienced riders are people who basically just drive to where they want to go. We go out and test the limits of our machines and I know both of my machines from front to back, while most people know nothing more than give it some gas and watch it go.

I did not bash anyone first off so you are adding words that are not there. When this discussion started I stated that I HAVE rode against 6 and 8 wheel machines and I have seen what there downfalls are and stated that in the mud the 6 & 8 wheelers don’t stand a chance. I am sorry but I have rode them and I have seen them in action and a properly set-up ATV can out climb, out mud, and outrun a 6 or 8 wheel vehicle easily. Sure if you are going to go ride across 10ft. of water the amphibious vehicle is better, but not in the conditions that were previously being discussed.

As for the ITP 589 I have owned some and I do still have a set although I won’t run with them. They are a pretty good trail tire, and they do FAIR in the mud, but they are no outlaw, EDL, or mudzilla by no means. We used to run them on the 500AC because it just worked around the farm but every time I went to play in the mud I would leave it at home because it would stay stuck more than the Grizzly with the laws. I don’t talk about the 589 because I don’t have experience with them. I have and do own them and I see them at the rides quite often and merely stated that if you think a 589 can go where an Outlaw can go you must not know too much about mud riding. Go on the HL forum and ask if ANYONE thinks the 589 can do anywhere near what the Outlaw can do and I am afraid to say that NO ONE is going to agree. The 589 has had good reviews in the past by “weekend warriors” who do nothing more than use an ATV for hunting or so forth. When judged by serious mud riders the 589 always falls short of the mark. The only time I will put the 589’s on is during hunting season when I know I won’t be hitting all the mud holes or going on a lot of rides and that is it.

As far as I can remember my Grizzly was still running when I was in that hole. If it was not it was because I turned it off. My air intake is relocated to the top of the gas tank in those pictures so I am well above the water line. I have not drown the Grizzly yet although I have drown other bikes in the past, but that is the price you pay for being extreme sometimes. Another reason the water is so still is because there is only 3” of it in that hole. Any picture you look at where I am in water you will more than likely never see mud flying all over. A good mud rider knows that spinning the tires too fast is just going to get you stuck. It is a rule of thumb ALMOST always to never spin the tires faster than you can count the lugs spinning around. ATV tires are not made like truck tires. They are made to be spun at slow speeds and let them do the work. Any experienced ATV mud rider will tell you that tire speed, body English, and skill are the most important things for making it through a bad hole.

You said that you did not see the ground clearance I had spoke of. All I have to say is that I can easily pass over a 5 gallon bucket and I don’t know of many Grizzly owners that can make the same claim. Do you?

I told you earlier that I am not trying to start an argument with you or anyone else. You want me to give advice, which would obviously be from my experience, and this is what I am giving. I know a fair bit about ATV’s and know a whole lot about the ones I own. I know about every problem they have and how to fix them. I know that no machine is perfect off the lot and that most of them aren’t even that good off the lot. What we have here is basically someone running a highly modified ATV vs. an almost bone stock ATV.

[OUT LAW'D 700]

Just wondering Mark where do u ride? i see ur from Magnolia so im just wondering, i ride out at Crosby almost every weekend and im sorry but there is no way that the 589's can go through the mud that we go through w/our Outlaws out at crosby the two best mud tires are  Zillas, and Laws, Laws conquer only a few areas better than the Zillas i know this cause i have owned both....im sorry but i just dont see how u said u have gone through worse mud than those pics with 589's i would def like to see this

[markc]

for outlaw'd 700, wlecome to the forums.  I see this is your first post. welcome aboard.  I also thank you that your tone is much less aggressive and inflamatory than that taken by 264 wm.

As forum moderator I am going to have to stop the threads that have become a my tire is better than your tire, and my atv will do what yours can't.  This simply is not productive to the purpose of the forum.  

My experience with outlaws is the same with the 589's at the same time on two seperate atv's.  Riding was done in a number of locations from Katy Texas rice fields and bayous, to the river and creek bottms of Waller county as well as the Spring Texas area.  To me both tires performed exceptionally well, as did both atv's One yamaha grizzley and one honda foreman.  Everything from sandy loan to black gumbo mud.

Having said that, friend mud is mud is mud.  This thread began with something other than  tire info, please go back and read all of the posts.  Before coming to the assistance of 264 winmag, go back and read his earlier posts that enflamed some posters on this forum and criticized their choice of off road vehicles.  

If riding mud is your thing, then more power to you.  If riding mud, hard pack or  rocky ground etc.. is in the mix for you, then maybe the outlaw tire is not the best choice.  Either way it is a choice.  I will not convince you otherwise, and you certainly will not convince me, because basically, I couldn't care less what tire you use as long as you are out on an atv having fun and enjoying the sport with family and friends.  After all isn't that why we spent money on off road vehicles in the first place?

Now, in my earlier posts I don't believe I said I went through "worse mud"  but that the mud I've ridden didn't have as much "water" as 264's pictures displayed.  

Now, with the "there's no way" in your post.  have you gone back and looked into the reviews I posted for 264wm?  Certainly the guys with the Yamaha Rhino's and other atv's who chose 589's would beg to differ.  But again, I couldn't care less what tire you use.  Use what you like, can afford and what works best for you.  But when someone begans to toss out inflamatory challanges to others, it simply will not be tolerated on this forum.  

Now 264, again, you are not reading the entire post.  I said
'others
'  and "more experienced riders"  (thats plural meaning more than one rider, more than just me).  So, to help you out, how long have you been riding the Yamah grizzley 660?  I began on a 1986 Yamaha moto 4 2WD and progressed from there.  "who have been doing it longer than some have been alive".  Check out all of the threads on this forum and see that there are folks much more experienced than me and you, whom I can learn from.  You would do well to come off of your high horse and learn from the very same folks.  

There is a difference in going "mudding" and taking your vehicle miles from anything that is paved and negotiating through stretches of water mud and muskeg that goes on for hundreds of yards or even miles.  After all that is where I believe the conflict arose in earlier threads.  You just can't compare the two.  There is no one to pull you out if you get stuck, or disabled in some way, and for some of those guys, there's no tree to attach a winch to either.  

Finally, you have stated your postition and promoted yourself and your skills and now it's time to move on.  I can tell from your post that you did not take the time to read the reviews I linked for you.  I did at least look through most, but not all, of your pictures.  Those reviewers earn their living with their machines and testing others which is not what you are describing that you do.   It is your choice not to read them or to possibly learn something.  

It is also my choice to delete this entire thread if you continue with it.  Understand?

If you have any questions or comments, send me a PM, as we have taken up way too much space on the forum for basically nothing.
markc

[OUT LAW'D 700]

Thanks for the welcome, but no i was not in anyway trying to say anything about any tire (im just going from my personal experiece) but yeah i am planning on buyin a set of 589's for out at Spring Creek no reason to waist a good mud tire on sand, and just trials the 589's are a good all round tire they dont dominate in anyone area but out at Crosby if u dont have Laws or Zillas, your not following us....we enjoy riding in the mud and water most of the pics that we get are of us in the water cause we dont take time to take pictures of the mud as u can see in my sig that i dont have many mud pics more water pics than anything since we are usually chillin an having a good ole time....but yes each person has their own prefrence in what tire, bike, setup they want and im just glad that they are riding and enjoying themselves to each his own is what i say.....when u said that, that wasnt mud and how u have had experience with really deep mud w/589's  i took that as 589's are better than the Laws thats where  i was coming from i was just stating that the Laws are a pure mud tire def arent for trails, but def do tear stuff up if u know what i mean if ur gonna play with the big boys u gotta pay :wink:

[markc]

I can see where I may have mislead or where my post about 589's may have been misunderstood.  To be honest, when I posted that, I didn't know what tire 264 ran on his grizzley.  I like 589's but then I like 489's as well.  I enjoyed the outlaws I tried out until I rode them on hard pack where they were rough as heck.  They very well may be a better pure mud tire, they certainly tossed alot up in the air that day, don't know since my riding is on a variety of terraine now, and usually involves work checking deer feeders and hog traps and hauling loads of gear and brush clearing tools.  I have little time now days for pure fun riding, wish I did.

I asked my bro n law how his 589 equipped grizzley did on their recent trip to Arkansas, and they did very well.  There of course is alot or rocky ground and very steep climbs.  His brother runs the outlaws on his Honda Foreman, which is the atv I rode when trying them out.  

I have ridden a bit at the Reed Wildlife Ranch in Keren's TX, which is a little over 1700 acres of Trinity River bottoms.  We rode it when mostly dry and then while at flood stage and some tires did better than others, but 4WD certainly made a big difference.

Anyway, welcome to the boards and please feel free to post up and post some pics anytime.
markc

[OUT LAW'D 700]

lol yes they are a weeeee bit shaky under 10mph....def not for hard pack trails..lol all my pics are in my sig so ur more than welcome to view them all u want maybe if u get some free time on ur hands one day you can come out and join our group in a Crosby ride we always have a blast out there....oh snorkels are highly recommended if u come out with us just look at our pics and ull see why

edit didnt see that u had to click the box to attach sig in the last post so heres my sig now

[264 WIN MAG]

The 589 are a good all around tire. Like I said before I have a set of them and used them on the 500AC around the farm for various chores. The thing I noticed about the 589 is they are good at everything but great at nothing. This is the same reason that I bought a 660 Grizzly, because it’s good at everything and great at nothing. I don’t mean this as a bad thing at all. The 589 does good in mud, rocks, sand, hard pack, etc. it just doesn’t stand out that much in any one area. I have tested them against the Outlaws in various conditions and it breaks down like this.

A.   Mud: Laws are the hands down winner in this category, no questions asked.
B.   Deep water: This is pretty much a toss up because both tires are high flotation and either will allow you to “water wheelie” fairly easy to keep the air intake out of the water. Which one is better in this area is going to depend on the ground underneath the water more than anything.
C.   Sand: This is another area there is no doubt. The 589 is going to go much better in the sand than the laws. The only area I have found the laws are strong in the sand is in quick sand types of soil where traction is more like gumbo. Besides quick sand the laws pretty much want to dig in sand where the 589 tends to stay on top a little better.
D.   Rocks: This is another category that has to go to the 589 because the laws once again fall short in this area. I have tried the laws on rocks and either it throws them from out under the bike or it just sits and spins. This will also make your axles last not near as long because all it takes is one time around for a tread to catch a rock and the axle or CV is gone.
E.   Hard Pack: The 589 is considerably smoother riding than the laws and they do tend to last longer as well. Most people complain about the laws ride on hard pack, but they are not that bad once you get over 10MPH. For people like me and Outlawed 700 we use them out of necessity so we just grin and bear it or spend half our lives stuck in the mud. When I know I am going on a ride that is going to have light to moderate mud and lots of hard pack I put on the 589’s. If I am going on a ride that I know is going to have a fair bit of mud I will run with the laws and just bear it on the trails to the mud holes.

The only tire that I have really ever seen “outdo” the laws in the mud was the Vampire EDL, but the only situations where these tires are really good is when you have mud with a hard bottom. The laws were designed to not sink in the mud but to sit down on the carcass and let the treads push you along whereas the EDL is designed to dig down, find the bottom, and go. The EDL also does a better job of climbing out of holes than the laws do because of the sharp tread design that lets it dig down and grab.

[markc]

are you switching these as a tire/wheel set already to go or actually having to switch the tires on the same set of wheels?  Sounds like time consuming but I guess if you know  where you are gonna be riding that particular weekend or week, you can make the switch in advance.  

Usually the weather changes so frequently, our side by sides or atv's just wear the same tires all of the time.  In the future I hope to have two sets of wheels with very different tires on each set.  That way I could switch wheels prior to a ride if I plan ahead a bit.  The hill country rocks tear up alot of tires and it would be good to have a set designed more for the sharp rocks for there and more for mud back home here.  Have a great weekend?
markc

[264 WIN MAG]

I have several different wheel and tire combos mounted and ready to switch out.