Standing Zero ????

[GeoNLR]

Who here shoots with a "Standing Zero"? I am new to the sport as in I have only shot it about 2-3 years and this year took the big plunge. I remimber people we used to shoot with always questioned me about establishing my match zeros off the bench... At the time I could not hold a pie plate so the bench made sense.

Well I have been having problems with the Chickens lately. I define a problem as in hitting 6-7 turkeys every match and hitting 2-3 chickens...LOL. So last night I zero my 1712 from the bench, it dot's the "I", dead nuts. Well I shoot some 5 shot groups off-hand at scaled chicken paper targets. I saw the problem 1st group and confirmed it with the 2nd and 3rd. I was shooting a quarter sized group at his leg, just above the base. REAL easy to get left or right of the leg, Ha-ha. So I go back to paper make the adjustment and now start hitting the paper chicken in the middle, seemed to be POA=POI.

I know I am not following through or another mechanical fault, please let's not address that now, lol, go slow with me. LOL. My question to you gentlemen is how many of you shoot with standing zeros, how many trust with your match life the feedback you get from the bench alone?

Thanks for your time and reply.

George

[lucho]

I don't know how many times I have been shooting and could have sworn my zero were off.  So I go to the bench and the thing shoots right on.  More than likely, as much as I hate to admit it, it wasn't the gun it was me.

Bad follow through or good consistent flinching can make all your shots group differently from your bench groups.

If you a new shooter AA (maybe even AAA) or lower, I would get zero's from the bench and trust them.  Especially if you have good ammo, rifle and scope.  Shots are missed because of the shooter, not the gun.

I had to force myself to trust the gun and put the blame on myself.  Then I worked to make the shot hit where I broke the shot.  Believe me it was tough.

That said, if I'm warming up for a match and my shots are low, you bet I'll tweak the knob on the scope and bring them up.  But I admit to myself that they are low because I have a flinch or I'm dropping the rifle.

In practice, if the shot is low I work on follow through and technique to get the shot where I break it.

Sorry, but we are the biggest variable in shooting.  Having good equipment lets you forget about the equipment and work on yourself.  And that is a good thing.

Don't loose heart; it’s the journey not the destination that is important.


Lucho

[tirador]

George, the bench zero will give you the exact elevations that you need between distances but it may vary from the point of impact you get from the off-hand position.  Also for your information, the zero that you get early in the morning will be different than the one you will have in the afternoon or evening by at least a couple of clicks.  

I always shoot from the bench before the match to get my zeros but I also shoot off-hand to verify them.  At times the difference between the two for me has been as much as one minute.  I believe it has to do with how I am holding the rifle that particular day.  

The best way to find out if there is a change between the two is to do what you are doing and use paper targets and shoot groups both from the bench and off-hand, with time will be able to tell how many clicks difference there is between the two.  The bulk of the points on most scores are made in the closer distances.  If you are able to hit 6-7 turkeys every time you shoot, your scores should be in the 26-30 range or better all the time. In other words if you are able to hit 65 % average turkeys you should be able to hit 75% on rams, 85% on chickens and 95% on pigs.

[GeoNLR]

The difference was exactly 1moa as you mentioned yours being as much as.

I have shot 24 more than not lately, one stretch I shot it like 4/5 matches, but that is a mental management issue I have been working on. Start on pigs and I shoot 8-9, went into pigs Wed night w/ 16 needed 7 to tie shooting partner / 8 to beat him, shot my 8 for yet another 24. Another time went into the pigs w/ 19 and KNEW I was going to shoot personal best (24, lol) but I only managed to take 5 off the rail. But that is the scoring area I have been in while hitting 2-3 chickens, maxing on 6. After making the adjustment 1 moa last night I was hitting 6-7 chickens consistently, we'll see tonight... I can't wait to shoot the chickens!

Thank you for the feedback, I think my issue is more of follow through, but while I'm practicing, I'm planning on checking my standing zeros.

[Gringo Grizzly]

I think Tirador is right on the money.
Some of my rifles shoot to the same zero, bench vs standing, but others definitely do not, but the changes in elevation from C TO P TO T TO R are the same, I just start in a different place!

I've found that if I can hit the head of a chicken from the SHOULDER during pre-match warmup, I'm in pretty good shape.

Of course, conditions on the range can mandate a slight elevation change from sight-in time to shooting time, but these are normally not radical.

Taking a break from silhouette this summer and shooting NRA Service Rifle - I've reinforced my feeling that when you think you need to make a zero change you should almost always do it.

When I don't make the change and think (gee, that had to be me!) I usually wish I had cranked the knob a few clicks - but by then the cow is OUT of the barn!

I've found more variability with the lighter (hunter class) rifles than with the heavier 10 lb 2oz critters.

Gringo

[Hornetx60]

George,   You are on the right track. Paper will tell you everything, Just watch where you were when the trigger broke and you get instant verification. Unless you were moving when the shot broke....but you can learn to see this. You have got to learn to quit counting targets and realize that you need every target to win. Forget your shooting partner. You are not competing against him, this is not a contact sport. You are only competing against yourself. So relax and shoot the matches in the same relaxed manner in which you do when you practice. Relax and allow yourself to shoot as well as you know that you can!   Quit looking at the targets like they are different, or one is harder than another. They all have a nice big bullseye circle...picture it...it goes from the belly to the back and from the left to the right edge...see the legs and feet and heads aren't even with in that circle. so all you need to do is look for that circle to shoot at.    Just 40 steel circles...no animals   now go knock'em down!!!

[shootingpaul]

you have good responzes so there is not much to add, triadiator is 100% right, the only thing that no one mentioned is that probably you are holding your rifle different when shooting from bench compared to offhand, sometimes a different pressure point on the rifle will influence its recoil - hence 2 difrent holds - 2 difrent recoil patterns - hence 2 differernt zeros.

It is very good idea to shoot at the paper, because even if you do not follow through you will place a group pattern which will tell you were your shots are going.

whe I shoot from bench - the rifle is rested on the front and rear rests, right hand holding it  like I would be shooting offhand and the left hand semi gently rests on the stock right on the cheek piece (right under my chin),
this, I found, is working for me the best.
Good Luck!

[GeoNLR]

Well ajj being the great guy he is stepped up to the plate and shot 10 chickens so I would not only see how it is done but how easy it is. I hung in there first bank with 4/5 but then got to THINKING and followed up with a 1/5, lol. Lost concentration all together.

The game is truley at a point for me where the fun is comming from the journey and the little way this lady we chase teases us with her ways.

THanks for the feed back, will try and put it to some good use.

By the way, I am working on my next question...how do you hit that pesky 5th turkey? Tonight, yet again, I started on Turkeys and cleaned the first 4... If I hit the 5th, I would not be working on a question..LOL. I actually placed a "shot" at this one, spotte called it a bullet off the breast. Just took me 3 turkeys into the next bank to settle down. Let me go and ready Lanny's book some more..at least now I'm choking on the 5th animal and not after 2 in a row Ha-ha!

[shootingpaul]

just think about the 5th one as it would be your 2nd one ..
hahahaha easy enough.........
I am serious....
good luck!

[ajj]

Lots of good advice here; sure nice to have this board.
That 10 chicken string was fun until I realized that, once again, I had hit almost all of them in the foot. That smallbore chicken foot is nice and wide and catches a lot of follow-through mistakes. It's harder, oops, I mean more of a CHALLENGE, to follow through on chickens. They're so close the bullet must be there already, right? Thinking follow through before the shot breaks helps to break it cleanly as in "If I do nothing else this shot I'm going to follow through smoothly."
At www.pilkguns.com find the Competition Index and then the "Hitchiker's Guide" to shooting and read Warren Potter's piece titled "Don't Bee a Chickeen." The description of how to stroke the trigger through decisively (even though he's describing a pistol technique) has been very helpful to me.
As others have said, if they're all going low IN A MATCH you have to do something meaning give that elevation knob a healthy twist. It's hard when you know it's your technique that's the problem, but that knowledge is part of what keeps us making the same errors. We sort them out in training.
George, sit down with last year's scorebook and this year's and do the averages. You aren't "stuck" on a score lower than you want. You're consistently shooting substantially better than you did last year without a lot of backsliding. You're shooting at a higher level and raising it bit every match. Sometimes the score in an individual match doesn't reflect the improvement but it's still there.

[hh4064]

I have shot BR50, 50/50 Bench Rest and of course silhouette. I highly recommend detailing your sight settings offhand. It is much easier if you are lucky enough to shoot on paper, while detailing. If you can't and have to shoot offhand at the silhouettes themselves you MUST have a good spotter. The stock pressures change dramatically from the bench to offhand. If your follow thru is not real crisp on that day it will make it even harder. But once your get used to tweaking your settings offhand, and have confidence in those settings your silhouette scores WILL improve. And sometimes improve alot. The biggest thing is to get the best equipment you can afford. If you loose confidence in your equipment your toast. If you have confidence that your equipment is in good shape, and you miss, well..... you will know right quick where the trouble is. I find out all the time when I miss the problem is between my ears not the gun. So I believe that sighting in offhand will make you a much better shooter. Remember the better your follow-thru the easier it will be.

[jneihouse]

Hey George,

If you're shooting with Carl he's probably turning your scope knobs between banks.  I think your're thinking too much.  Remember last summer when you were in Fort Smith that week and we went to the range several afternoons?   You were taking the chickens to slap down city all week long.  And remember on Saturday evening, along about dark we decided to turn the chickens sideways and make it a litle more difficult?  You hit a pretty fair number of chickens with it so dark you could barely make out the white of the chicken with the magnification turned all the way down.  Duct tape your knobs, keep an eye on Carl, and tell yourself before each animal, "don't think, shoot".  As for the 5th turkey consider that if you have already hit 4 in a row it's not the 5th but the 1st and only one on that bank:)

[genphideaux]

John,

You should have been one of them Phykologist people with all that mind think'in thang

George,

 Be the turkey, become one with the inner turkey, feel the turkey's heart beat. Forget it, just shoot the turkey in the head, but swing to the left and low. Any left standing, sneak-up on'em and kick'em down and stomp on them. Hunt down there kin and rid us of this pestalance, declare them the scourge of the earth. Turkey haters unite.

Sorry, I must go take my med's now.

It ain't rocket science, but it's close to cruise missle guidance.

Dawg