Q for Gatofeo and others: Using 4F powder in C&B pistols

[John C]

I asked this question on another board, and didn't get a very detailed answer....Keep in mind that I've never done this, and I am asking for informational purposes only.

So here goes.  I've read that competitive rifled musket shooters often use 3F powder in place of traditional 2F powder.  The reason is that the smaller grains burn faster, so you use less powder per shot, with the same velocity.  The rule of thumb, I've read, is 45-48 grs. 3F in place of 60 grs. 2F.  This has the added benefit of producing dramatically less fouling.

My question is whether this same principle applies to pistols, in terms of going from 3F to 4F.  Instead of say, 30 grs. 3F in my Ruger Old Army, how about 15-20 grs. 4F?

Many people have said to NEVER use 4F as a main charge, since the pressure peaks rapidly, causing an overpressure situation.  Several posters related stories of being handed rifles loaded with a full charge of 4F as a 'joke', and the attendant horrendous recoil.  

However, I'm not advocating a full charge, rather, a reduced charge.  Also, no one could relate a situation where a BP firearm actually blew up due to 4F being used.  Not that it can't be done, I'm sure.....

Has anyone tried this?  Have thoughts or opinions?  Gatofeo?

-John C

[mec]

Ive heard pressure warnings too saying not to use it.  Thirty years ago though, I had a friend who used nothing but 4f in his brass framed navy.  He did it because it didnt foul nearly as quickly as 3f.  I really dont know if its a hazard or not.

[filmokentucky]

Most people (myself included), when firing brass framed revolvers, use a reduced charge because brass framed revolvers tend to shoot loose quickly with full loads. So, you might get away with a light charge of ffffg. I wouldn't try it myself.
   But a ROA is a whole different animal. In his book "The Blackpowder
Handgun", Sam Fadala lists a series of ffffg loads in a ROA.
                         20 grs.=607 fps.
                         25 grs.=873 fps.
                         30 grs.=971 fps.
                         40 grs.=1033 fps.
  He makes no mention of the gun bursting or a sudden loss of any of his
figers so I would say the Ruger held up just fine. I don't believe that I would try this in a traditional style revolver, though.

[Ramrod]

John C> The competitive musket shooters you are talking about are also trying to get off as many shots as possible as fast as they can, without cleaning. The reduced charge of faster powder fouls much less. On the other hand, many times the slower powder is the more accurate, when there is time to clean.
My old Lyman Blackpowder Handbook from 1975 lists FFFFg loads, with pressure and velocity for all cap and ball revolvers, from .31 up to .44 and also Ruger Old Army. I have only used it in my .31, and have never had a problem.

[Gatofeo]

I have never used FFFFG in my revolvers. Every time I try to order it, the salesman figures I have a stutter and hands me FFG.  

But seriously, I haven't heard that FFFFG has a significant advantage over FFFG or FFG. I use a well-greased felt wad twixt ball and powder, seated firmly on the powder before seating the ball. This keeps fouling to a minimum.
In fact, I've popped the barrel of my Colt 1851 Navy and shown smokeless powder friends, who were amazed that there was but a fine layer of gray ash in the barrel, not mini-briquets of crud like they'd always heard.
I use FFFG and FFG in my .36 and .44 revolvers.
The Ruger Old Army is a very strong revolver; probably the strongest cap and ball revolver ever made. I'm at work and have no reference to pressures generated by FFFFG in revolvers. I'll see what I can find at home.
I think that FFFFG would work fine in the .31, and perhaps the .36 if it's all you have, but I wouldn't want to use it in a .44 with its greater chamber volume.
I'm no ballistician, but I'm always amazed at how the smallest changes in components often bring out the worst nature of the beast we call gunpowder (whether the ancient stuff or smokeless).
And one thing that can rouse that beast is the volume in which gunpowder is confined and must work.
If you decide to use FFFFG, let us know what the results are. Sounds like an interesting post. I would confine FFFFG experiments only to the Ruger Old Army. The use of FFFFG may generate pressures that strain any other model, especially an original.

[Sundown Holly]

I use 4F in my Navy Colt in reduced charges, but I won't recommend it to any one else. I won't be responsible for someone having an accident. I ran across an old reloading manual, or two, that mentioned it. When I asked around about it every body looked at me like I was crazy. Three years ago I was talking to a buddy who has been using black powder for 30 years, and is a very well known gunsmith. I was complaining about the fouling from black powder. He mentioned he uses reduced loads of 4Fbecause it had the volicity but burned clean.  We were talking about many things that day and when I went home and thought about it I figured I had  misunderstood him.  Since then I questioned him directly on at least two different occasions and even wrote down his answers. He has an 1860 Army that he opened up the area under the loading lever so it would take 45 ACP lead semi wadcutters.  He has used 4F exclusively for years in this gun to achieve 600 to 650 fps.  Like I said, he is a well known gun smith and has been working exclusively on the old guns for over 30 years. Following his recommendations I cautiously began to try it with his starting loads. I have been using 4F exclusively for 2 years now. It burns very clean with no residue in the gun. Recoil is mild and accuracy is very good. Because I am using a very reduced load I have to use a double wad to make sure the load compresses.

     The old timers didn't have to worry about the fouling problems we have today because the powders they used burned very clean. It was a competitive market in those days with there being literally hundreds of brands on the market so the manufacturers had to make the best to survive in that competitive market. In my experience 4F gives a performance similar to those old powders, in moderate loads. I have never posted this before because I could picture someone trying to make a magnum out of his old cap and ball pistol and blowing it up.

     I use black powder only, no Clean Shot, 777, Pirodex etc.  I want a powder that will allow you to put large numbers of rounds through the old style guns with out binding up after 12 or 18 rounds.  The old powders did that.  There are cases on record where guns were fired several hundred times with out binding up, in test the Army did  in trying to choose a sidearm.  In combat you could not afford  to use a powder that fouled quickly.  I can spend a day at the range and put together some substantial groups using 4F. I am not advocating this for anyone else,I am just stating what I have found, and I have run across the writings of two well known old timer gunwriters who also mentioned using 4F.

[Sundown Holly]

Oops, that's "Pyrodex" (brain fart).

[Sundown Holly]

I'm leaving town for a few days so after reading my post I decided I might as well give a little more information since there my be questions and I won't be around for about a week, so here goes.

     As I mentioned, I  use reduced loads in my Navy.  I found that 15 gr. of 4F gives mild recoil and good accuracy. I do not have a chronograph so I do not know about the speed of the round ball but I would guess it to be around 800 to 900 fps. Accuracy is very good. I tried an experimental load of 16 grains of powder but  accuracy was not as good and you could feel the difference when firing the gun.  Like I said before, I can spend the day at the range and after shooting the barrel looks clean, very little in the way of fouling, no binding, no cylinder drag.  All in all I am very pleased.  

     As for powder I use Elephant brand.  My gunsmith friend said that Elephant does not give you the velocity  that Goex does, but the pressures also are a little lower.  Because I am only using 15 grains of powder I use a double wad. With black powder it is very important that you get compression and the double wad helps insure this.

[John C]

Thanks, everyone, for the good info.  Sundown Holly's observations are what I would've expected.

I am a cautious person by nature, so I'm not going to hot rod 4F in my pistols.  But my suspicion is that since BP is a low energy propellant, and C&B guns are for the most part overbuilt, that a person probably can't overload a revolver with 4F and cause bursting.  A double charge of smokeless, absolutely.  But with BP?  

I imagine that long guns, where the amount of propellent is functionally limitless, are more prone to bursting.  I've read of a test of old damascus shotguns, where a tester tried to blow them up with smokeless powder.  They used a statistically significant number, and found that they would stand up to 70,000 psi (or cup? I can't remember).  A normal shotshell is about 12-14,000.  The margin of error is large.

I will research this further.  I think I have Sam Fadala's book somewhere.  I'll dig it out and do some more reading.

-John C

[Sundown Holly]

John C, thank you for your comments.  My reluctance to mention even using 4F was that I was afraid someone would try to hot rod a cap and ball pistol.  As far as the percussion pistols of today are concerned, they do have greater strength than the originals due to the better quality steels used.  In the early 1990's I purchased a Navy Colt reissue by Colt that had been converted to 38 Special. What made this conversion different was that the gun smith doing the work actually used the cylinder from the reissue Navy rather than a new cylinder.  I was told by the dealer not to use +P loads in it, a practice that I carefully avoided, but I was also told by the gunsmith that he would use .357's to proof the gun!  Nobody in their right mind would ever consider turning a Navy into a .357.  I mention this to demonstrate that these guns are not as weak as some would have us think.  When I questioned the gunsmith about the wisdom (or lack of it) in proofing with .357's he said that for liability purposes he had to make sure the guns were safe. (By the way, this was not the same gunsmith who told me about using 4F in the Navy).

[unspellable]

How strong the gun may be is not the only consideration.  When the pressure gets too spiffy it can blow the cap off the nipple.  The big hazard here is getting somehting in the eyes.  (My great grandfather lost an eye this way.  Makes me wonder how many one eyed shooters there were in the old days.)  The small hazard is having the cap fall into the works on a revolver and jamming it up.

[Sundown Holly]

As with all C & B revolvers you need a strong mainspring.  When you have an action job done on a peacemaker you can go with a light spring, but with a C & B you need a very strong mainspring to keep the hammer from blowing back.  As long as you do this you will have no problem with blowback. (By the way, greetings from California! I found a local computer).

[EdSmith]

I really hope that every one who shoots any kind of firearm wears shooting glasses.  ed smith