.45 Auto for Hunting

[JPSaxMan]

Got a quick question. Does anybody use a .45 Auto for hunting? CAN anybody use a .45 for hunting? I kno in PA you can't use them. And I've seen sales ads for handgun scopes with the scope mounted on a .45. And that scope ain't gonna do ya much good for self defense when some guys aimin at ya with freesights. Any opinions? Thanx

[Redhawk1]

Most scoped 45ACP are for target shooting. I would not recommend a 45ACP for hunting nor would I use one. There are much better choices out there for hunting. JMHO.  

[Mikey]

Fishman029:  Redhawk1's statement is very accurate.  Although game can be taken with the 45 auto it is simply not the caliber of choice.  There have been a number of threads on this issue and the answer is basically the same - there are much better choices.  You can read some of those threads a bit further on down in this forum.  They are pretty informative.

A number of years ago one of the more noted gun magazines ran an article about hunting black bear with a 45 auto.  Yes, they finally killed the treed bear but it was about the worst and most sickening example of hunting I have ever read about.  Many, many readers complained to the magazine about the ethics and inhumane results of hunting critters like that with a 45 auto.  Also, a number of posters and readers on these forums have asked that question and our collective responses are just what Redhawk1 provided.  There are much better choices for bear hunting or for defense against bears.  I will personnally not recommend the 45 auto for bear.

BTW, the scoped 45 auto you saw was a target piece, and just that.  There are a number of setups for scoping out the 1911 but they are used for target shooting and might not be worthwhile for anything else.  HTH.  Mikey.

[jhalcott]

One thing I have NOT seen mentioned about the 45 auto is its richochet factor! Those big round nose slugs bounce off every thing! Flat nose bullets around 200 grains are better,but they have feeding problems quite often. I have used the 45 when hunting in remote areas for game up to coyote in size.Would I use it for deer? Not unless I was in a survival situation and the deer was close and the ONLY game around.

[willis5]

check all of the previous posts on this topic. there are a million opinions on it.

[Dogshooter]

I have several 1911's and dearly love to shoot all of them. I carry one all the time, even when hunting. I have used a 45 to finalize a kill a time or two but have never actually used a 45 to "take" game. I am sure the round is adequate at very close range for deer but why try? As in one of the above posts, if I was in a survival situation, I'd use what I had to survive. Use the right gun for the job. The way I see it, that just gives you an excuse to go get another gun. :wink:

[Glanceblamm]

Good thread on this subject is at
Africa Hunting Forum
Post is.. .357 loads for black bear/cougar defense

Is the fourth post by JJHACK. He tells a story of taking some law enforcement people hunting bears with the .45 auto

Results were poor, pretty much like everyone above has stated.

[tubbythetuba]

I'd use a .45acp 230 grain soft point or JHP at bow range....not more than 30, maybe 40 yards, but why? I carry my .45 while hunting with my 1895GS but not for shooting deer. If I want to handgun hunt, I'd use something else. I'd say this, tho: the old 44-40 six shooter probably took a whole lot of game back in the day, and that's a pretty weak round...about on the order of a .45acp.

[SD Handgunner]

I carry a .45 ACP every single day while at work, and I wouldn't consider anything else. I think it is an excellent cartridge for this purpose.

Most states have specific game laws pertaining to what is legal to hunt with and what is not (be sure to check the regs where you hunt). Here in South Dakota for a Handgun Cartridge to be legal to Hunt Deer with it must be factory rated to produce a minimum of 500 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle.

In the case of the .45 ACP the only loads that I know of that are factory rated to produce this minimum energy level are +P Loads.

I have installed a heavier recoil spring in my .45 to better handle the added recoil of the +P Loads. I have used both +P Factory Loads and my own Handloads that equal these velocity and energy levels. A favorite handload came from the late Dean Grennell and uses the 185gr. Nosler Jacketed Hollow Point Bullet loaded with Alliant Blue Dot Powder. In my .45 this load produces energy levels on par with the .357 Magnum, but in my opinion is much more effective.

I carry my .45 as a BACKUP while hunting with my Contenders. The main purpose is to deploy this .45 if and when I have to track a wounded Whitetail through thick cover. For this purpose it is and has worked great. I have also shot one Whitetail Doe with this gun and handload in a hunting situation at a distance of 35 to 40 yards. I was walking along side of a shelterbelt when the Doe burst out of the trees on a dead run. The bullet completely penetrated the chest, and after the shot the Whitetail ran about another 50 yards before expiring.

In addition I have dispatched a dozen or more Whitetails at ranges of 5 feet to 35 yards at the sites of vehicle / deer accidents. All of these I shot through the chest and I do not recall ever recovering a single bullet. In my opinion the .45 ACP with the RIGHT LOAD is just as effective (or maybe more so) than a .357 Magnum.

Now with all of this said would I consider the .45 ACP a Deer Hunting Handgun, maybe under the right circumstances. Would I consider the .45 ACP as a Deer Hunting Handgun if it was the ONLY Handgun to be used on that Hunt, absolutely not. If I decided to leave my Contenders home and hunt strictly with a Semi-Auto or a Revolver I would definately choose something other than the .45 ACP, even with its +P Loads. However used under the right circumstances, with the right bullet and load it will do the job provided the bullet is put in the right place.

I didn't relate all of this to provide the fuel for you guys to bash me, but rather am trying to relate my experiences. I like my .45, I shoot it quite well, and am totally familiar with it and its capabilities so it is only natural (at least to me) that I carry it as a backup handgun while hunting. I can not relate to Black Bears since I have never hunted one, and probably never will unless I venture out of South Dakota. However if I do, and if it is legal where I hunt I will more than likely carry the .45 loaded to +P levels with a 230gr. Hornady XTP or something similar as a backup to a Contender.

SD Handgunner

[Dogshooter]

Yeah.....What he said......

Well put SDH..........

[New Hampshire]

If you can get your hands on one I would get a longslide 1911.  The extra bbl adds just that much more punch.....something that is really needed on the lower end cartridges.
Brian M.

[OregonBoy]

Paco Kelly has a load listed on his website in the "Daly 45" article which he claims generates 635ft/lbs with a 250gr(?) bullet. Says it went completely through a black bear; Sounds like a hunting load to me  :shock: . BTW, does anyone actually make a soft-point for the 45 ACP?

[Mikey]

TC_addict:  yes, there are soft pointed bullets for the 45 auto.  I don't know exactly who makes them but they are definately out there.  Mikey.

[Camp Cook]

Use a more powerful round.......
I know it can be done with the 45 Auto but I would not use it myself. The lowest power I would use in a semi-auto would be the 10mm with 200gr XTP's @ 1270fps and a revolver would be the 41 magnum with any 210gr or greater weight bullet.
Cam

[Elwood]

I have always been amazed how a 45 long colt traveling at 800 to 900 FPS
will kill like Thors hammer, yet a 45 ACP bullet of the same configuration is a irresponsible choice? My Sierra bullets reloading manual has their 240 grain JHC traveling at 900 fps from both the 45 long Colt and the 45 APC.
I guess I just don't understand how ballistics work being a country boy and all.    Elwood

[OregonBoy]

I've wondered about that too, Elwood. A 230gr JHP or FMJ-FN @ 950fps should come pretty close in preformance to its 250gr equivalent at the same speeds in the 45 Colt...but I'm no ballistics expert, either  :roll:

[Camp Cook]

Sounds like shot placement is the answer to using a slow moving heavy bullet, but what would you do when that slow moving non-expanding bullet that is to slow to expand or make any real size of wound cavity didn't hit something vital? A 22LR could kill that same animal if you placed your bullet right.
I don't want the animal to just die in a perfect situation, I want it to die as fast as possible, and a high velocity jhp or heavy hard cast will give far more shocking effect, larger wound cavity and a far faster kill in that less than perfect shot.
Cam

[tubbythetuba]

I have always been amazed how a 45 long colt traveling at 800 to 900 FPS
will kill like Thors hammer, yet a 45 ACP bullet of the same configuration is a irresponsible choice? My Sierra bullets reloading manual has their 240 grain JHC traveling at 900 fps from both the 45 long Colt and the 45 APC.
I guess I just don't understand how ballistics work being a country boy and all.    Elwood

I think .45acp got a bad rep when most people were firing FMJs instead of a good soft point or JHP. Even a decent cast would be good.  My personal estimate of 30-40 yds is a comment on how well I shoot my Glock 36, not how far the round might be effective. Like I said, 44-40 shooters have been hammering 'em for over a century+ :wink:

[Redhawk1]

I found a site that is very informative on the 45ACP. I think it is a very good read. You all need to check it out.

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/other/jh_45acp.htm

[OregonBoy]

That was pretty interesting, Redhawk1. The author made a lot of good points about the effectiveness of the .45 and other handgun rounds that could be applied to hunting, esp. the following:

Having studied terminal ballistics on both game and humans I have concluded that a 200 pound deer is much easier to incapacitate than a 200 pound determined attacker (note that there are many cases of "undetermined" attackers who have been stopped by warning shots, insignificant wounds or even threats).

Still looking for those fabeled 45 ACP soft-points...closest thing I found were the 230gr "Enclosed Base" flat-point bullets in Winchester's WinClean rounds. Doesn't really matter, though; I'm pretty sure "soft-point" bullets would just act as a solids at those low velocities. Maybe Hawk Bullets could make one's with extra thin jackets...

[The deerslayer]

check out buffalobore.com. I asked them about the same thing ant thy said to use their 230gr JHP ammo.

[Mikey]

Elwood and TC_Addict:  Tubbythetuba and Redhawk have provided some excellent information.

In truth, there is very little difference between the 45 auto and the 45 Colt, in terms of their velocities and overall performance.  I'm not talking about the 45 Colt loads from the higher pressure revolvers, I'm simply referencing the older, more original 45 Colt loads.

The 45 acp can be loaded to the 45 Colt level of performance, which is basically dependent upon the bullet design.  I have always been an advocate of a cast, flat nosed bullet at fairly modest velocities (850-900) for personal defense, in the 45 calibers.  It just seems to work.  

Since we are talking about hunting and not personal defense, then we have to recognize that there is very little difference, if any practical difference at all between a 225 gn flatnose bullet at 875'/sec from the acp and a 255 gn swc at 850 from the Colt.  However, neither is a preferred hunting round and the concern is whether either would give adequate penetration at better than 50 yds.

If it is in a survival situation and the acp with an adequate bullet is all you have then you simply must do with whatcha got - but again, it is not a preferred choice.  Yes, it is a big fat slug moving at modest velocities and will penetrate through and through out to a certain distance but beyond that it loses steam and capability fairly rapidly.

Somewhere I saw an add for a 230 gn flat nose bullet someone was casting for the 45 Schofield but I simply have not been able to locate that add since first seeing it.  I could easily be convinced this might be the best all-around bullet for the 45 acp for defense and this would certainly do for hunting in a survival situation if the 45 acp was all you had.  Keep in mind though that the bullet would be loaded to probably no more than 900'/sec and even if you could squeeze another 50'/sec from the load it would still limit you to a 50 yd maximum distance.

I have seen 45 target shooters plunk 230 gn ball into a 2" group at 50 yds.  If you could place your shot right it would bring down a deer sized critter but again, there are better choices.

Now, if I could only find that add again I think I would be happier.  HTH and this is just my own 2 cents worth here.  Mikey.

[Redhawk1]

Mikey, I still stick to my first post and would not use the 45ACP for hunting. There are just to many other better choices in my opinion. One thing about the 45ACP, it will never be able to be **reloaded** to the level the 45LC could. The 45LC can be loaded to 44MAG power. Also the bullet construction for the 45LC has a lot more choices for a hunting bullet.  

[OregonBoy]

Thanks, Mikey. I don't think I'll ever find myself hunting with the 45 auto, but I find the concept interesting. BTW, changed my user name from TC_addict to OregonBoy, my name on other forums.

[Buster]

I think the .45 auto would make a decent small game gun, maybe medium game under ideal circumstances.   I disagree with deer being much easier to kill than a determined human.  I have seen deer travel a mile with a cracked pelvis and ruptured internal organs.

[Lloyd Smale]

seen a few killed with an acp and have seen hogs killed with them and with the RIGHT LOAD they kill well. If you can push a good hardcast swc at 800-900fps theres not many animals it wont shoot through. Problem with the acp is bullet selection. There is not a big selection of good swcs for the acp most have rounded metplats to funtion through untuned guns. What we do is take a good lighter (under 250grain) 45 colt design swc or lfn size it to .451 or .452 and push it to 800fps If they will run through your gun reliably they will kill well. One exception to this is the little 220 grain lfn that veral makes just for the acp its a good game bullet. Loaded with one of these bullets at 800+ fps i wouldnt be afraid to hunt dear or bear out to 50 yards if the gun will shoot accuractly to that range. Round nose bullets of any kind have no place in hunting big game and in the case of something like the acp i wouldnt use a jacketed bullet either. But im a little predudiced in that area

[Mikey]

Ya know fellas, this is a great topic for discussion but I think I will stick with my original position - yes it can be done but the 45 acp is not the preferred round for this endeavour and there are others that are much better choices.

I confirmed that yesterday at the range.  I went to sight in my 4" Model 29 and to make certain I could still hit with it.  I took out 100 rounds, fifty of which were plinkers just to re-familiarize myself with the gun and the other fifty were hunting loads to evaluate.  I also took my 45 and a couple of boxes of hardball as well as a few magazines of some 250 gn 45 LC bullets I had loaded up.  I had fun shooting both guns and the 44 is still right on.  

The old 44 magnum standard of a 240 gn jacketed soft point over 24 gn of 296 is quite concussive in its detonation.  The 3 different 295 gn cast or 300 gn jacketed or cast over 21 gn of 296 were a bit easier on the concussion end of things but 'whopped' the hay out of the target.  In comparison, the 45, with both loads (all within proper pressure ranges) just kinda banged away.  Yes, there is much difference in recoil and detonation concussion between a fully loaded 44 magnum and a 45 auto but if they are any indicators at all it would show that although the 45 acp might be able to penetrate a whitetail broadside at out to 50 yds, the 44 magnum or a heavily loaded 45 Colt is much more preferable.  

So again, yes it can be done but there are better rounds to do it with.  Now, that being said, please understand that I would not want to be the whitetail in the sights of either caliber picture.  And this is just Mikey.

[Questor]

Mikey:

I completely agree with you. My most memorable 44mag vs 45acp test was with 300 grain hard cast hunting bullets at 1300fps in the 44 and 200 grain hard cast SWCs at 800fps with the 45ACP. I shot at a 12+ inch creosoted log (i.e., hard and fibrous, it was a decommissioned utility pole).  The 44 completely penetrated the log. The 45 hit the log and bounced off, with the bullet being recovered about a foot from where it had hit, and slightly deformed.  

I have also shot a number of "varmints" with the 45 and have not been impressed. I have always used 200 grain SWCs at 800fps. Granted, I could add 100fps and get better expansion with expanding bullets. However, well placed bullets in groundhogs, and in one racoon, took multiple hits to drop the animals. My opinion of the effectiveness of the 45ACP is that the 22LR hollow point is more effective on small game, and this is based on experience.

Another thing to remember is the joy with which the 44 magnum was greeted by handgun hunters. It was considered the most important cartridge introduction in the history of handgunning at the time because we finally had an effective commercial cartridge that would do the job. In other words, the 45ACP had had by then plenty of time to prove itself in the hunting fields but had not done so.