Author Topic: Deer rifle choice for eastern woodlands... (Read 2554 times)

ironglow · « **on:** August 13, 2004, 02:35:59 AM »

Laws are being considered that would change my area from a "shotgun only" deer hunting area, to allowing rifles.

For eastern woodlands ...30/30, .308 or 243 ?

Does the .308 benefit cost wise, from mil ammo availability?

Mac11700 · « **Reply #1 on:** August 13, 2004, 03:46:36 AM »

ironglow:

All 3 rifles will do a good job for you on taking deer.....you really haven't stated the type of terrain you'll be hunting in...or the distances you'll be expecting a shot at...if all your shots will be at "shotgun" range 150 yards or less...I would go for the 30-30...you'll find ammo realatively cheap...and it is a pretty good round to reload for ,and you'll have to reload to get any spitzer type bullet for it...but if you do...you'll be able to extend you range somewhat...if your yardages are over 150 yards...go for the 308...ammo will be a bit more depending on what type you buy...but your extended range will call for it and they are gennerally pretty accurate.....the 243 is a good one too...it doesn't kick as much...and can also do a good job on varmints as well......my choice for a all-around rifle of the three you stated...the 308...it will give you more versatility than the 30-30...or the 243...

Mac

BIGBOREFAN · « **Reply #2 on:** August 13, 2004, 04:17:03 AM »

Well my opinion is of coarse the 7mm-08. I know you did not list it as one of your choices, but it is a good one. About the same recoil as the 243 Win, just a little more. It will shoot with the 308 in velocity and knock down power. Because it is 7mm bore and you use a 140 grain bullet it actually has a better trajectory than the 308 with 150 grain. Not that it will make a difference at the ranges we hunt. I live in the upper eastern part of WV and when in my part of the woods shots are rarely over 100 yards. The 308 is a dandy though. I use to have a Ultra in 308. Shot great and had plenty of power. If you going to be still hunting and walking a lot get the synthetic, because they are a great walking woods gun. Just my opinion.

BBF

hellacatcher · « **Reply #3 on:** August 13, 2004, 04:26:59 AM »

Think about the 44 mag it works for me. :-)

BIGBOREFAN · « **Reply #4 on:** August 13, 2004, 04:42:53 AM »

44 mag would be a great choice as long as you do not plan on shooting past 125 yards. Has plenty of punch with good loads and the recoil is nill. I have taken several with a Win 94 wrangler in 44 mag. All but one dropped like they were it by a truck. The one that ran was a 110 to 120 pound field dresses doe, broad side classic heart shot and ran only 20 yards.

BBF

Mac11700 · « **Reply #5 on:** August 13, 2004, 05:48:41 AM »

With the right bullets all three calibers he has ask about make fine deer rifles...and since we are talking about using them in a Handi...even the 30-30 lends itself to longer ranges if handloaded the correct bullets.He hasn't stated if he would like to utilize it as a multipurpose rifle yet...but as we know...all of those mentioned so-far lend themselves to this purpose...afterall...with a simple barrel switch..he can have it just about anyway he wants :wink:

Mac

50 Calshtr · « **Reply #6 on:** August 13, 2004, 07:01:35 AM »

I'd shy away from the 243 and go to the other end of the NEF catalog for a 45-70. My son lost his first deer due to a 243 bullet breaking up on a leg/shoulder bone after what appeared to be a perfect shot from his tree stand at about twenty yards. The deer ran off with the offside leg broken but left no blood trail due to the high angle of the shot. Never found it in the thick woods down here. The 243 may be OK in most areas but for our near jungle conditions or any thick woods I'll take my, and now my son's, 45-70 anytime the range won't be over 150 yards. Also as a plus it is one of the most versital and easily reloaded rounds available.

JBKERNS · « **Reply #7 on:** August 13, 2004, 07:37:14 AM »

I have a .308 scout, a Winchester .30-30, and a .45-70 Handi.

They are all good for NW Virginia. This year I will carry the scout due to recent timber cutting. They are all handy and fast.

Masterblaster1 · « **Reply #8 on:** August 13, 2004, 10:09:05 AM »

I would suggest a Marlin 336 cs in .35 Remington, with a low power scope. It is a fine rifle with medium recoil and gobs of stopping power for deer hunting. I have taken 3 deer with mine, best of which was a 8 point i dropped in its tracks at 85 yards with 1 shot. I was using a 180 gr speer bullet.

handirifle · « **Reply #9 on:** August 13, 2004, 10:46:24 AM »

Ironglow
I'd consider these things then make your pick.

Is recoil an issue?

Ammo availability? Cost?

Do you reload?

What distances will you be shooting from?

The two most sold calibers in this country are 30-30 and 30-06. Both have done the job longer than most of us have been alive.

If the range is going to be under 100yds the bigger the bore the better. But big bore doesn't always mean big recoil. Example, a 44Mag under 100yds is every bit as effective as a 45-70 with way less recoil.

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #10 on:** August 13, 2004, 12:11:40 PM »

Can't really go wrong, but the .44 Mag and the .45-70 are not well suited to running shots. The transit time is simply too long. I own both, shoot them a lot, and love them, but they do not go into the woods when I might have to take a running shot.

My choices would be .308, 7-08, and .30-30, in that order in a Handi.

The .30-30 gets in because it rarely has the case sticking problem. If you go with the .308 or 7-08, you get a better deer round, but you are going to need to do some fiddling with rifle and/or ammo to get the 100% reliability I want in a hunting rifle.

gwhilikerz · « **Reply #11 on:** August 13, 2004, 02:21:04 PM »

I know what you mean by "transit time" with a 45/70. My Dad had a 1873 Springfield trap door. We used to laugh about being able to shoot it at 100yds., taking the gun from our shoulder, sipping a little tea and watching for the impact. But I don't think that transit time figures in very much on shots at running deer unless it is really long range. Deer don't run any faster than a quail can fly and the shotgun is slower than the 45/70 (I think). Although I am no expert at running deer having only taken three that were running, one each with 30/30, 243, and 20ga.
All the guns mentioned by everyone weighing in on this subject are good deer guns and will do the job.

Big Blue · « **Reply #12 on:** August 13, 2004, 02:22:58 PM »

Quote from: Masterblaster1

I would suggest a Marlin 336 cs in .35 Remington, with a low power scope. It is a fine rifle with medium recoil and gobs of stopping power for deer hunting. I have taken 3 deer with mine, best of which was a 8 point i dropped in its tracks at 85 yards with 1 shot. I was using a 180 gr speer bullet.

Masterblaster,
The Marlin 336 is indeed a great rifle, but for the cost, he could probably buy two Handi's. Cost is a big consideration to those that buy these rifles, but for the money, they are a very accurate hunting rifles. While the .35 Rem. is a excellent close range cartridge, it lacks the longer range ability of the .308 or 30/30. The .35 Marlin 336C was my first deer rifle, so believe me I have nothing against it.
Don

Fred M · « **Reply #13 on:** August 13, 2004, 05:34:59 PM »

Eastern Wood lands? That spells it out. The 243 has no business there.
The 243 is not a good deer rifle as far as I am concerned, and in the woods more so. Many years ago I used a 44 Mag S&W Model 29 Hand gun to shoot deer, black bear and even one moose. Non over 25 yards. Fred M

ironglow · « **Reply #14 on:** August 13, 2004, 05:55:38 PM »

Thanks for the sage advice from each of you..
My area is in the edge of the Allegheny mountains...so I will be hunting in hilly terrain, most often at 150 yds or less.
Basically, I was thinking of NEF, since I don't take shots at running deer.
Just my hangup; in dense woods checking backstops while shooting at a running deer is not for me..
Perhaps I'm going a bit too far afield.....I already have an H & R "shikari" model in .44 mag.
I have a BSA red dot that will mount on it; does that sound like a good combo?

Mac11700 · « **Reply #15 on:** August 13, 2004, 06:46:42 PM »

At the ranges you said.. that would be streching the range of a 44 mag too much for my liking...I''m partial to a few calibers...the 308 being one of them...30-30...444...45-70...these I've used before and wouldn't hesitate with any of them for 150 yards...iif you have power line cuts and some open feild edges where the shots can get longer...you can't go wrong with the 308...it will give you a good all-around rifle...there are others out there that will work just as well...but like I said I'm kinda partial to them...

If your planning on reloading or if you are already...the 30-30 will work so too will the 308...... and with the 308 you can get mil-surp ammo for it rather cheaply...I can't say I've had the best of luck with it...but your rifle could be different...

One thing I can say...I haven't found a Red Dot site that I like or would use...that's just me...I would rather use a good peep site if I couldn't put a scope on any of them...and there are some really good scopes out there to choose from too...which makes tracking a deer in the woods a-lot easier than a dot site.

Mac

handirifle · « **Reply #16 on:** August 13, 2004, 07:41:19 PM »

Ironglow
I'd say given your expected conditions and range. Considering the ammo cost, availability and effectiveness. I'd go 30-30. Everyday prices on 30-30 ammo is as good as any surluse ads I've seen. Within 150yds it'll do everything any other 30 cal will do, and that is kill 'em with one well placed shot.

Don't underestimate the 30-30 with 150gr loads or even 170's. Set your zero about 1 1/2" high at 100 and aim point on to 150. My son's 30-30 Handi will place 3 shots in a 3 1/2" circle at 200yds using factory 170gr loads all day. That flat nose bullet packs a punch and expands real nice.

Plus, it have NEVER stuck a case.

Longcruise · « **Reply #17 on:** August 14, 2004, 08:45:06 AM »

The .308 milsurp ammo could be great for practice, but for the most part will not make a hunting round and may not be legal for hunting in your state (It's not in mine or any other that I've hunted in).

I'll dsagree on the advisability of a .243 for deer. I think it's fine but as has been said, unless you want a varmint/deer rifle combo, the 308 or 7-08 are more versatile and either will make an elk rifle if you have the opportunity.

.243 is legal for elk in my state, but of the three .243/elk "incidents" that I have personal knowledge of (no! I wasn't the shooter :grin: ) the .243 was totally inadequate and resulted in one hit and lost animal and the other two took 4 and 5 shots respectively to put them down.

So, I'm voting 7-08 if you plan to reload and .308 if you'll shoot factory. Nothing wrong with that 45-70 either :-)

JPH45 · « **Reply #18 on:** August 14, 2004, 09:47:21 AM »

That Shiraki 44 mag will serve you quite well in the woods. I killed 4 does with my NEF 44 last year. A factory loaded 240 grain bullet is going to give you abot 125 yards point blank range on a 4" target, at 150 yards you be about 6" low yet still making some 900 ft pounds of energy, quite adaquate for deer hunting, and in the woods, it is very unlikely you will be seeing anything farther away than 75 yards. I have spent my life hunting in the Southeastern woods and have only shot one deer at 80 yards. All the others were at 40 yards and less. If you can manage the range with a 20 or 12 guage, you can manage the range with a 44 Mag and you won't be under gunned.

The 45-70 with Remington 405 bullets will have about the same trajectory and nearly twice energy, the 30-30 will give you a 150 yard point blank range. The 308 will be at home in the woods or over 300 yard feilds, but your 44 will serve you well. If I were in your shoes, I would get a 308. The combo of the 44 and the 308 will cover most any hunting you are going to do east of the Missisippi, and certainly any in the woods.

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #19 on:** August 14, 2004, 01:00:32 PM »

Ream that Shiraki 44 out to 445 super mag or 444 and it should cover the 150 yds. easy. Digger

Markus · « **Reply #20 on:** August 14, 2004, 02:36:18 PM »

What shotgun ahave you used in previous seasons? If your shots are less than 150 yards and you are profici3ent with your current weapon why switch? Of course if it's just to buy another gun I whole heartedly understand.

Big Blue · « **Reply #21 on:** August 14, 2004, 03:02:37 PM »

Quote from: Ditchdigger

Ream that Shiraki 44 out to 445 super mag or 444 and it should cover the 150 yds. easy. Digger

Just out of curiosity, how much do they charge to ream out the .44 mag. to accomidate the 444? That's a great idea.
Don

jbtazgrabber · « **Reply #22 on:** August 14, 2004, 05:09:42 PM »

hey try the 445 super killed 4 deer dead in tracks it can shot 150 yds my h&r shot 200 gr best so 200 xtp with imr 4227 =2010 fps 444 out of h&r kicks like a mule . their are people in shotgun news who rent reamers .i thought 357 max was the best deargun made untill i ran into a 150 lb. buck . the 2 last year dear killed with 445 were 102 doe at 60 yds 136 lb. buck at45 yds. 1 step kills

no tracking

Leftoverdj · « **Reply #23 on:** August 15, 2004, 02:35:28 PM »

Sorry, boys. The Shikari is on the old cast iron frame and the .44 Mag is all the pressure I would put in one.

I'd say the Shikari would do fine for the hunting described. I 'd put a low power scope on it in deference to my elderly eyes.

The shotgun comparison is not a fair one in my opinion. All you have to do is to get some part of a three foot round pattern over the bird and I'll bet you miss as many 40 yard crossing shots as you hit. With a rifle, you have to put the bullet in a target no bigger than a 12" circle and a lot smaller at some angles.

A deer at a flat out run is traveling about 44 fps. For easy figuring, we'll call velocity of a .44 mag or a .45-70 1500 fps over the flight time. At 50 yards, that's a tenth of a second, time for the deer to move ahead 4.4 feet and up or down nearly two feet. You can hold right under a deer's nose, and miss completely. (Sez he who's done it more times than he cares to admit.) At a 45 degree angle, the deer only moves half as much in relation to the bullet path, but you only have half as much deer to shoot at.

ironglow · « **Reply #24 on:** August 16, 2004, 01:45:38 PM »

Lefty has an important point in what he calls "transit time"! Causes me to pause and think of perhaps a .308. I have an old Unertl 4 power"post and crosshair" scope that may do the job!

My shotguns over the hyears have been either Ithaca pumps or as more recently, an H & r Tracker (all deer barrels)

I like the precision of a rifle, and have not hunted anything with shotgun, other than deer, for many years...
Of course, that means I dont hunt such things as geese, ducks or most all birds, including turkey...but I still like rifles best!

Now, if the legislators will just get off their duffs!!!

Mac11700 · « **Reply #25 on:** August 16, 2004, 06:43:41 PM »

Ironglow:

A 308 Handi and that Unertl scope would make a dandy hunting rig...that's for sure...heck...you could say the same for just about most of the Handi's too :wink:

If they don't pass your legislation to allow you to use centerfire...take a close look at the 20 gauge and 12 gauge Ultra Slug Hunters...both are fantastic choices for those slug only areas to hunt with...and with the new modern sabot's...you'll be in the ballpark on your stated yardage too.I had great success with my 12 gauge ultra back in 93-94 using Litefield hybrid slugs...most of the ones out today that you can get...extend them even further...

Mac

brown-trout · « **Reply #26 on:** August 23, 2004, 04:10:33 PM »

..........Id use O'Connor's favorite, the 270 Winchester.

Works on all deer, elk and moose.......thousands of each have fallen dead to this classic.

throws a 130 , 150 or the newer 140 grain bullets at around 3000fps.

Lotsa knock down power....think of it as a merging of a 30-06 case with the 7mm bullet (which in effect it is...).

hope this helps...

borg1 · « **Reply #27 on:** August 24, 2004, 02:23:33 AM »

I've got a .30-06, .308 and .270. All work well for me in eastern woodlands, and for <300 yd shots. I am leaning towards the .270 because its a flat shooter, has a good selection of factory loads, and is a good reloader.

My .270 Handi regularly shoots MOA or under at 100 yds.

That being said, my next deer calibers will be either a 7-08 or a .25-06, with the .243 being very marginal, especially on those large northeast bucks!

I cannot dispute the fact that the 30-30 has probably killed more whitetails than any other round, but my preference is for more power and potential range!!! for example, i've hunted some cutovers where 200 to 300 shots are sometimes necessary, i don't think the 30-30 would work well in these situations.

Now, if you're hunting thick brush the 30-30 is a fine choice. Personally, i use a Remington 740 semi chambered in .30-06. It has a Magna ported barrel and so there is little muzzle flip and i can stay on target easily for follow up shots if needed (not needed so far though :wink: )

I would pick a caliber (& action) that is adequate in most situations...

Buffalogun · « **Reply #28 on:** August 24, 2004, 02:54:12 PM »

ironglow,

I have the .243, 6.5x55, .270, 7-08, 30-30, 30-30AI and the .45-70. I too, hunt the eastern woods and have taken deer from 15yds out to 170 yds. I've taken deer with each of the above cartridges.

IMHO the best cartridge that you can get for your purpose in a Handi is the 7-08 Remington. The .243 has plenty of horsepower for deer, but is very dependent on bullet construction(I use the Speer Grand Slam).

The 7-08 will shoot very flat and have plenty of horsepower(without the un-needed extra power of the .270 and .30-06). It won't be as dependent on premium bullets as the .243, either. It isn't as good as the 6.5x55(my personal favorite), but I overlook that! It's a good round.

Oh, and Fred, let me know and I'll tell you how to take deer with the .243 :eek:

Buffalogun

digs68 · « **Reply #29 on:** October 02, 2010, 02:43:56 AM »

Hello all!
I am kind of new to the forum and have been reading through some old posts. I felt compelled to put my 2 pennies in on this one, even though it's pretty old.
First off, there is no such thing as a "brush gun" or a "woods gun" ballistically speaking. Every bullet deflects and has it's flight path altered when it strikes something. Even the tiniest twig can alter the path of the heaviest bullet or cause it to tumble, unless maybe you're hunting with a howitzer.
That being said, a .243 is just as proficient in the woods as a .30-06. Actually, the .243 may even hold the very slightest advantage because the diameter of the bullet is smaller, and may be able to squeeze past a branch that may catch the larger 30 caliber's jacket.
It's all a crapshoot when hunting in the brush, and most times, it's luck and skill that gets the bullet to it's intended target, not brute strength.
Now, if you're considering a woods or brush gun as just a gun that's easier to maneuver in tight situations and one with the ability for quick follow-up shots, that's a whole 'nother can of worms. In that situation, I 'd always lean towards some of the lever-action rifles and available calibers. I have an old Revelation .30-30 with a 4 power scope that has served me well over the years. This particular rifle is above average in accuracy, and I've taken at least two deer that were closer to 200 yards without the need of a follow up shot. It also is light enough and easy to sling for stalking, and the low power scope works well enough for "up close and personal" hunting in the woods. Some may (and do) prefer open sights for deep or brushy woods.
The next thing that irks me is the belief that a larger or more powerful caliber is going to prevent a deer from running after a well-placed shot. Sure, I think there may be a very slight advantage with heavier bullets, but I've taken alot of deer with alot of calibers, and I can tell you that's another crap-shoot.
I've dropped deer dead in their tracks with a .243 at 100yds or more and I've had them run more than 100 yards after a 50 caliber slug from a muzzle-loader took out their heart at 50 yards. Same story with .30-06, .270, .308, .25-06, .30-30, etc.
I've found that the best deer gun (and we are talking deer here, not multipurpose) is the one that you are comfortable with. I'm sure after hunting with a shotgun and slugs for years you're used to getting your shoulder beat to pieces, so a larger caliber or more powerful rifle like a .30-06 or 7 mag won't bother you much at all. If you'd like a break from the beatings, and still want something you can feel comfortable with out to 200 yards or so, then a .243, .308, 7mm-08, etc would suit you just fine.
So, now I'm just curious, which did you choose, and did they change the legislation?