Author Topic: designing a wildcat (Read 1503 times)

kevin.303 · « **on:** August 13, 2004, 07:44:36 PM »

okay, i've got a clunker M/N M44 that in it's present condition is useless. i got to thinking that if the .303 British can be successfully necked down to a smaller caliber, why not the 7.62X54R?

i figure to neck it down to 7MM or .257 and maybe even 6MM and .22. i would obviously need reamers and dies and these would have to be custom made. who would i contact to does this? also how would go about theorizing ballistics. with a full powder load and a light bullet i'm sure it would zip along.

it's just a concept for now, i have other obligations and outdoor projects ahead of it. like a .405 win built on a No. 4 Lee-Enfield or a new snowmobile.

kevin

Reed1911 · « **Reply #1 on:** August 14, 2004, 03:29:27 AM »

Most of the time you design a wildcat to fill a need not available elsewhere. For the rest of us, just for fun:)
While I don't want to steer you away, I don't think the 7.62x54 is a good base to begin with, only due to the lack of available brass. Graf and Norma have it, who knows how long Graf will keep it up, and Norma is WAY too expensive. But, on to your question.
Sit down and draw out what you want on paper, you'll want to make up a few sample cases just for you so you can compare case capacity with other like rounds. This is where you'll decide to keep or scrap the project. If you find that there is already a factory case that fills the need almost exactly, then there really is no need to spend the 1500.00 or so to build your own. Unless of course you're sure yours will add something to it (e.g. accuracy). 1500.00 sounds like a lot but that's not a far out number for the chamber reamer, die reamer, barrel, dies, and work. I'm giving this number based on the idea of the 7.62x54R. There are no actions or similar rounds designed on it, so the whole project will be custom.
So, you decide to go ahead with the project. You'll need to initially draw (or have drawn) the dimensions for the chamber reamer. Once you have that you can have the reamer made. For the initial gun, I'd use a single shot so you can avoid some of the cost of finding or having made a receiver to mate the bbl to. Offhand, maybe an Encore. One the barrel is made you begin your load development. Which would take me a few pages to fully explain. Feel free to e-mail me if you think you really would like to pursue it, I'll give you as much help as I can and/or point you to better qualified people.

kevin.303 · « **Reply #2 on:** August 14, 2004, 06:48:19 PM »

hmmm... maybe not. my main idea was that the M/N action isn't very suitable for rechambering because the shape of the magazine. and its a hot round so i thought a smaller and lighter bullet would be even hotter. but brass supply is a problem and thats a pretty high price for something a common factory cartridge could equal. oh well bsck to the drawing board.

Catfish · « **Reply #3 on:** August 22, 2004, 02:21:47 PM »

Kevin,
I`ve got an M-44 rebarelled to 2 1/2 in. .410. I used a Dogulas Premium barrel in .411 bore and load my own .410 slugs for it. If you want to make things simpler for finding bullet you could go with a .410 bore. The bolt face will work with the .410 cases and I was pushing a 243 grn. bullet to over 1,700 fps. With plastic cases. The action is good for 45,000 PSI, but with plastic cases you`ll be limited to around 20,000 PSI. ( my guess) I had trouble while hunting with it. I think that the problem was do to the colder tempitures while hunting after load work was it warmer weather. There is no data any where for this outfit and you will blow the rim on some of the cases while working up a load. Nothing should come out but hot gases, but you should definately wear glasses when shooting this gun with plastic cases. If you load brass case of good quality you should be able to push a 300 grn. bullet to about 2,200 fps.

kevin.303 · « **Reply #4 on:** August 22, 2004, 05:57:08 PM »

i will probably go in that route in the future. i'm surprised i didn't think of that myself. the indian army did the same thing with No.1 MK.3's for guard duty.

Rick Teal · « **Reply #5 on:** August 23, 2004, 03:33:05 PM »

Kevin:

I have a Mohawk 555, which is a Soviet SVT that was originally chambered in 7.62X54, and is now in .303 British. I have been told that some of these rifles were re-barrelled with SMLE take-offs, but the barrel on mine looks nothing like an SMLE barrel. I believe the other option was to set-back the original barrel and then run a .303 reamer into it.

Something along this line might be possible for your project. A gunsmith could advise you if the re-barrel or set-back are possible with your nagant.

Rick

kevin.303 · « **Reply #6 on:** August 23, 2004, 06:08:31 PM »

actually rick this was one my first ideas. the mag on the SVT is just a basic box magazine, right? i don't know if you've handled a M/N but the mag is contoured to fit the cartridge. i tried loading a .303 and it won't go. it might seem odd for someone with my username to turn down another .303 but in this case,no. don't think the Globco/mohawk 555 was re barreled with a SMLE barrel because to make it fit you would have to recut either the barrel or reciever threads. it would be a timeconsuming job and i think you would lose a fair amount of strength. i could be wrong.

as for rechambering an M44, i've been told you can rechamber them to .308 winchester, but if the bore is .311-.312 diameter, you probably won't get a lot of accuracy from a .308 bullet . and its a short barrel to boot. if i can verify that a long 91/30 barrel can be threaded into a M44 receiver, then i might be willing to pay the $200 dollars for a headspace job. although the .410 idea is very appealing. a .411 300 gr bullet moving at 2,200 FPS. thats not too bad and would be great for hunting hogs or moose in heavy brush.

Rick Teal · « **Reply #7 on:** August 24, 2004, 05:51:13 PM »

Kevin:

I wonder if the ,308 rechambering is actually possible given the rim difference of .470 to .573 and length difference of 2.015 to 2.110 (both measurements favouring the 7.62). Actually, I wonder about the rim difference with the .303 as well being .540 compared with .573.

If the .308 is possible, you could chamber it for that cartridge with a neck to handle the .311 bullet for a .303-08 wildcat. Actually the 7X57 or 8X57 case looks to be a better length with a .311 bullet for a 7.7X57 'cat. Also, the rim diameter of the .348 looks good at .610, and the 45/70 at .600 could be good starting points for a .311 wildcat.

Rick

BTW: There is a "bend" in the Mohawk mag. I think it was modified from the original (or replaced).

Reed1911 · « **Reply #8 on:** August 28, 2004, 02:32:41 PM »

If I remember correctly (guess I should have posted this earlier) The removal of the barrel from the Mosin Nagnat is near impossable without destryoing the receiver. I can't think of the gent that was doing the work at the moment, but I'll post it if I remember.

Wildcat Crazy · « **Reply #9 on:** August 29, 2004, 04:22:58 PM »

The 6.3x53R Finnish{.257 cal.}and the 9.3x53R Finnish{.366 cal.}
were popular in Finland at one time.Both were based on the 7.62x54R
case and built on the M-N action.

A few custom rifles were built in the U.S. in the 1920s, on surplus
Remington M-Ns. Most ,gunsmiths, do not consider the M-N action
suitable for custom work.

I have never heard of any problems with removing the barrels.Finland
and Russia rebarrelled 10s of 1000s of them.

WC

Reed1911 · « **Reply #10 on:** August 30, 2004, 01:30:27 AM »

I might very well be mistaken. It was one of those thoughts waaay in the back of the 'ol noggin that surfaced.

Wildcat Crazy · « **Reply #11 on:** August 30, 2004, 02:19:57 PM »

I encountered 2 more cartridges derived from the 7.62x54R,one is the 8.2x53R Finnish{323} he other is the 6.5x54R Russian Biathlon.All 4 cartridges are or at one time was factory loaded.

WC

kombi1976 · « **Reply #12 on:** September 05, 2004, 03:56:31 PM »

If your M44 action is nice and strong why not re-barrel it to .25/303. You should be able to load it up to .250 Savage if the action will take a little more pounding than an SMLE action and with a half decent twist, more like those used for a 257 Roberts, it also should be able to stabilise the heavier 117gr projectiles.