Author Topic: Groups at 25yds  (Read 760 times)

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Offline Jim n Iowa

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Groups at 25yds
« on: August 15, 2004, 01:53:54 PM »
I can remember shooting the tops of spoons off at 15-25' at a rest area while in wyoming getting ready to start the hunting season, and that was off hand with a 4" 357. I know as age goes on !!!. Now today at a rest with a 44 Ruger RH 7.5 scope model/ 2x Nikon at 25 yds I can verily group in a 8" bull. I don't believe I have the same skills to hold on a target, and shoot with a smooth action. Any one have any basic bench tips for a pistol, so I may try this again( seem to shake some, and trigger pull could be a jerk) Haven't done this in 25+ yrs.
Jim

Offline oso45-70

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« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2004, 05:19:56 PM »
Jim,
The answer is. ( dry fire ) ( dry fire ) ( dry fire ) I don't know what you were doing for twenty five years, But you should have been ( dry fireing )
You will be OK once you get back into it again. Good luck Sir and be safe.
.........Joe............
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Offline TScottO

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« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2004, 06:07:24 PM »
For shooting off the bench I use a rolled up towel to rest my wrist on and for the gun I use a Hoppes rifle rest with a 4”x8” flat sand bag atop. I lay a rag on the sandbag. This rag keeps the bag from getting smoked up and also gives a bit of cushion to the frame. Some times a pistol will push off a hard packed sandbag in a squirrelly way. The only part of the gun touching the bag is the front bottom point of the frame in front of the trigger guard. I don’t apply any pushing pressure into the bag with the gun. I simply allow the gun to rest just enough for stability. The grip of the gun should be floating above the table and not touching anything other than your hands and air. This is what works for me. I do find it makes a big difference how comfortable I am set up at the bench. If I have to bend over in an awkward position to sight down the gun my groups start to look awful. Just find a comfortable set up and a good rest and you should be set.

I use to dry fire a lot but not so much anymore. Now when I dry fire I do so with my eyes closed and just feel the pull. As fare as sighting and dry firing at the same time it's hard for me to tell if on target everytime. It will help trigger control and help you see if you are not smooth and jerking but to put small groups together I have to see the result of where the bullet hits. Just don't practice wrong, then you will have to unlearn bad habits. I think for most people a big part of shooting big groups is the way they react to muzzle blast. It’s a lot easier to do it right where there isn’t a big explosion going off in your face.

Be Safe,
Scott

Offline Iowegan

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« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2004, 06:18:53 PM »
Here's a good technique that really works. Have your shooting buddy load your gun with a mix of live ammo and empties. Shoot the gun while watching the front sight very close. When you snap on a dud, the barrel will do some tricks. Most shooters anticipate recoil and try to push the muzzle down at the moment they squeeze the trigger. Swan dive!  Finger placement on the trigger will do some nasty stuff. Too much finger will cause the muzzle to move left (right handed shooter). Try centering your finger print on the trigger. Practice dry firing with a consistent hold and trigger finger placement. Cock the gun with your non-shooting hand to maintain a good hold.

Even though it seems instant, there is a period of time required for the hammer to fall, the primer detonating, powder to burn, and finally the bullet goes zooming out of the barrel. Any gun movement during "lock time" will certainly make the bullet hit somewhere other than the bullseye.

For bench shooting, the worst thing you can do is to let any part of the gun or your hands touch the bench or sand bag. The best stance is holding the gun with both hands and resting your arms, just behind the wrists, on a sand bag. Lay the gun down after each round. This forces you to pick it up and renew your hold. If you try to shoot multiple shots without setting the gun down, you'll find you are moving your hands but not really adjusting for the same hold every time. After considerable practice, you'll find the right hold quickly and won't have to set the gun down.

Shoot light target loads. They make less noise and recoil. When you can put out the lights with target loads, move up to something a little heavier then finally you can shoot magnums without flinching.
GLB

Offline Graybeard

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« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2004, 12:48:50 AM »
I'm going to disagree with the previous poster.

I find my best groups from the bench come when I rest my wrists and the forward part of the frame on a sand bag. This is easier for me with double actions but works about as well with single actions. On a double action the part of the revolver where the crane goes into the frame is what I rest on a bag. This makes for a very stable shooting position.

But atlas I can't shoot today as I did many years ago. Back in the late 70s and early 80s I was still active in competition shooting and my eyes were far better then than now. I could shoot off hand groups under an inch at 25 yards with long barrel revolvers and TCs with fair regularity. These days even from a bench with iron sights twice that is an excellent group for me and they don't come with the regularity that one inch did from free hand once. I find that 2.5"-3" groups with irons is really about the best I can do with any regularity now. I must use scopes to do better.


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Offline 44 Man

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« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2004, 02:30:41 AM »
I have to agree with Graybeard.  A lot of it is the "old eyes".  35 years ago I used to be able to regularly shoot 6" groups at 100 yds with open sights, but no longer.  I also develope a shake occasionally.  When that happens, I won't be shooting any groups for record!  A few years ago I went through a period where I wanted to 'blink' evey time the gun when off.  I still shot ok but that was a learned flinch that I had to very carefully overcome.  Using a little faster trigger pull seemed to get me though that.  Sit down at the bench and verify that the gun shoots ok and that the scope is not loose.  You may just have to deal with more difficulty in shooting good groups than you used to have.  I try to cheat when in the woods and lean my forearms into a tree or my shoulder against one.  Anything that helps me hold more steady.  (I also had a pair of glasses made where the right eye focuses at 24" where the front sight is, but they are only useful at the bench.)  44 Man
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Offline Iowegan

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« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2004, 08:20:58 AM »
Greybeard, I have used your "hold" many times and found it very stable. The problem is, the gun bucks up from recoil and shoots high. If you adjust the sights for POI from your hold, the gun will shoot several inches low when you go to off hand shooting. The position I described is not as stable but does maintain the same POI from bench to off hand. Different strokes for different folks.
GLB

Offline TScottO

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« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2004, 12:43:33 PM »
A rag or towel folded in half placed on top of the bag will help. Also pushing the gun hard into the bag magnifies the push off a bit.

Be Safe,
Scott

Offline Glanceblamm

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« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2004, 07:34:02 PM »
This probably goes without saying but for the off hand I will push out with the hand holding the gun and pull back with the hand wraped around it.
Not Enough To Cause Strain, but just enough for some tension.

Offline J.Solo

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« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2004, 04:44:15 PM »
I'm in the same boat but I don't like to use a scope. I hunt Whitetail with open sighted Freedom arms .454 and Ruger .44 Magnums.  I used to practice at the range a couple days a week but priorities have changed over the years and family obligations have cut that time to about once a month.  I used to be steady and accurate just like I used to be "cool" but now I'm just "old".

Anyway.... this year I decided to get steady and accurate again. I have put all my center fire revolvers away for the time being and now just shoot .22LR and .22 Magnums revolvers and pistols in preparation for the 2004 Hunting Season. I find that I'm more relaxed at the range these days (two days a week now) and I'm getting better trigger control along with breathing control and hand & eye coordination. I do about 3/4 of my shooting from standing, kneeling and sitting positions with a walking stick as a support. The same as I do in the woods. The other 1/4 of the time I shoot from the bench with my arms supported over a gun pouch. The bench time is just so I know the sights are set right and for more trigger control and hand, eye & breathing coordination.  I'll go back to my .454 and .44 sometime in late September/early October.  The .22 handguns are really helping me get back on track. I'll never be as good as I used to be but I will be better than I have been the past few years. Good Luck to you - J.Solo

Offline Graybeard

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« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2004, 05:00:04 PM »
Quote
Graybeard, I have used your "hold" many times and found it very stable. The problem is, the gun bucks up from recoil and shoots high. If you adjust the sights for POI from your hold, the gun will shoot several inches low when you go to off hand shooting. The position I described is not as stable but does maintain the same POI from bench to off hand. Different strokes for different folks.


That is indeed a problem some have. I don't. My best friend and long time shooting partner (now deceased) used to have that problem. He couldn't shoot from a bench and be anywhere closed to where he shot free hand. So he just always sighted in free hand. Oh yeah he was some kinda good freehand shot. But I could sight in his gun at the bench for him and he could shoot it freehand and hit fine.

I shoot to same POI either from bench or free hand or even with various field rest postions. Just never been a problem for me. But yes I know it is for some.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!