Author Topic: Cup pressures for the NEF Handi-Rifle  (Read 1126 times)

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Offline Natman

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Cup pressures for the NEF Handi-Rifle
« on: August 17, 2004, 04:09:46 PM »
I recently bought the 45-70 Handi-Rifle SB2..Am planning on handloading my own soon..I was wonderin what the maximum safe pressure would be for this rifle?I'm planning on only using 300grain bullets and trying to keep Recoil at or around 32 to 35 ft lbs for now but get at least 2050 fps at the muzzle..Does this sound feasible..I'm fairly new to these bigger bore guns and usin 300grain Winchester HP at 1880fps and 22 ft.lbs. recoil.

Offline quickdtoo

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Cup pressures for the NEF Handi-Rifle
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2004, 04:28:44 PM »
Anyone see Clarke's 45-70 Handi tests?

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Offline Mac11700

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Cup pressures for the NEF Handi-Rifle
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2004, 06:25:05 PM »
Natmam:

Any of the Marlin loading data for the 45-70 is ok to shoot in the Handi.Getting 2050 fps with a 300 grain bullet isn't to difficult to achieve...problem is as the velocity goes up...so too does the recoil.Try adding some lead bird shot in the stock bolt hole...and learn to roll with the shot will help a great deal...also you could add a mercury recoil suppresoor to the butt stock instead of the bird shot...if the recoil is still too much Past makes a recoil pad to wear on your shoulder...one thing to remember about the good ole 45-70...they shot end to end thru Bison with slower loadings,heavier bullets of plain lead bullets with Black Powder...and if your going to do a-lot of shooting off the bench with it...try sitting up-right to shoot...it helps a great deal...


Mac
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Offline handirifle

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Cup pressures for the NEF Handi-Rifle
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2004, 06:57:18 PM »
Natman
One thing to keep in mind with the 300gr'ers is they mostly, are designed for lower velocities.  Those that have hunted with the 300gr JHP's have disappointed with the bullets tendancy to either self destruct or explosive meat damage.  Try different bullets if you want to push them up high.
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Offline Joel

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Cup pressures for the NEF Handi-Rifle
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2004, 08:13:19 PM »
I have to agree with handirifle about the 300 grainer's not being suitable for high velocity loading....unless you plan to shoot game in excess of 100 yards or more.  I"ve a post elsewhere here describing my long experience with that weight bullet in the 45-70 on game.  I finally, after I got done hotrodding a round that doesn't need it, settled for starting muzzle velocities of 1840 fps.  Pleasant load to shoot in the NEF, deadly on deer out to the 125 yds I used it and very little to none bloodshot meat. Your requirements may be different and you may need some extra velocity at your normal game ranges.  Recoil at 2173 fps(which is the highest velocity I shot game with...although I loaded up to 2400 fps) was 28 ftlb @ 15 fps.  Not uncomfortable, but fairly stout in that light rifle.  I only shot it twice with the 300 gr at 2400 fps.  'Way more than I could handle in that rifle.

Offline Deadeye47

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Cup pressures for the NEF Handi-Rifle
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2004, 05:46:00 AM »
:shock: 87,000 PSI!!!!...I'll stick with my pokie ole 13.5 grain loads of Unique! :D
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Offline JPH45

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Cup pressures for the NEF Handi-Rifle
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2004, 12:31:49 PM »
Clarke is a freak. Only an idiot would do the things to guns he has claimed to do over the last few years all over the net. He has actually advodated the use of proof loads in an arm on regular basis (I think this was in a .380 if I remember) Quoting Clarke is bad business if not down right dangerous. Quickload is a load generation program that can only estimate given pressures. For all we know that 87,000 was 100,000 or it could have been 50,000. Who knows for sure.

The Handi is quoted by the manufacturer to be capable of level 2, or lever action loads. We have no question of this because the manufacturer chambered the rifle in 450 Marlin which operates at pressures equal to those of Ruger #1 / Browning High Wall data. There are more than a few trapdoor loads that will drive 400 grain bullets to 1700 fps, and if you've touched one of these off in your NEF your teeth rattled. With care, I am sure any competent reloader could push 300 grain bullets in excess of 2100 fps from a Handi and be well within pressure limits for the gun. But the data Clarke has posted is completely unsubstanciated, irresponsible and downright dangerous. I have no doubt he has done what he claims. However, what proof does anyone have that he is not simply a prankster? Photos of flattened primers and seperated cases can be reproduced in several different ways, none requiring pressures exceeding 40,000. What is to say he even conducted his tests in a Handi?????

Not taking you to task Quickdtoo, just want people who may not know, this crap has been floated on the net for the last several years, no reputable board has left it unchallanged and Clarke, while he still surfaces from time to time here there and yonder has earned himself the rank of idiot fool from the vast majority of reloading practitioners on these boards.

As has been said more than a few times, if your shoulder can take it, your Handi can too.
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Offline Mac11700

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Cup pressures for the NEF Handi-Rifle
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2004, 12:43:14 PM »
Quote from: handirifle
Natman
One thing to keep in mind with the 300gr'ers is they mostly, are designed for lower velocities.  Those that have hunted with the 300gr JHP's have disappointed with the bullets tendancy to either self destruct or explosive meat damage.  Try different bullets if you want to push them up high.


While this might be true for most of the 300 grain bullets...it isn't for the 300 grain Nosler Partition....the load I used to harvest a real nice 10 pointer last season pushed this bullet above 2200FPS and it preformed admirally at 152 yards giving complete penatration and dropping him within a few feet of being hit...also...I don't think this would apply to any of the Barnes bullets either...these bullets are built to withstand much higher velocities than what most folks load a 45-70 to. Granted the recoil in a 7lb Handi it might be to much for some to handle...but I don't hunt with light rifles when using loads like these...I would want a rifle of at least 8.5lbs-9.5lbs and a very good recoil pad...that makes them manageable in the field....perhaps not off the bench...but when that ole big buck gets up in front of you and you touch one off...I don't think you'll notice to much...


Mac
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Offline quickdtoo

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Cup pressures for the NEF Handi-Rifle
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2004, 01:22:40 PM »
JPH45, I have to agree with you 100%, I'm just surprised that you and Mitch were the only 2 that commented on Clarke's questionable acts. :?
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Joel

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Cup pressures for the NEF Handi-Rifle
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2004, 05:33:57 PM »
I forgot all about the Nosler's; never tried them..to pricey for me; although I use them in other calibers. I shot 3 deer using the Barnes Original 300 gr semi-spitzers and found that at NEF velocities they don't expand unless bone is hit.  In the case of the 3 deer I shot, the starting velocity was 2173 fps and the ranges ran from around 10 feet to 25 yds.  In the case of the 10 foot range(6 point buck) the spine was hit and he dropped in his tracks with the usual large exit hole one expects from the 45-70..  The other two were doe and neither died quickly or easily; the bullets never hit bone, and didn't expand at all.  They didn't go all that far, and there was a good blood trail, but they were still dying when I reached them, and frankly I don't care for finishing shots.  One of the reasons I use the 45-70.  I think Barnes lists this bullet as requiring at least 2400 fps to expand properly.  Unfortunate, because the bullet was extremely accurate in my rifle.  The NEF is obviously a stronger action than some people give credit to; when married to the proper barrel/chamber wall thickness. The various .308, 30-06, 35 Whelen(when it was available) etc. all generate much higer pressures than what Marlin Levers take (which may be irrelevant considering the different rifles), but the key is the proper barrel/chamber wall thickness.  As far as ol' Clarke goes, I've been ignoring him for so long, I flat forgot to get upset.

Offline Mac11700

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Cup pressures for the NEF Handi-Rifle
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2004, 07:15:50 PM »
First off I think this Clark guy was just trying to prove a point....my problem is... for the life of me...I can't figure out what that point is...I guess I haven't read enough of his post to determine if he is a very intelligent person...or a blooming idiot...but...if he was just trying to show how much pressure a Handi can take...without actually having the correct  equipment to do this and is extrapolating data from a program...then I would have to say he shouldn't be taken seriously...and he should be classified as a idiot. I just don't put faith in someone like that...and generally ignore them.
 
The Handi's can take a-lot of pressure...that is proven by the cartridges that have been offered...and the debate over just how much a 45-70 can be loaded to...or ...should be loaded to...is a very old debate...and opinions vary greatly on this one...my contention is to have a rifle heavy enough to off-set the large amount of recoil that will be generated by using heavy loads...and as the Handi's come at 7.5lbs..isn't enough ..for me..to do that...that's why I add weight to mine to help dampen it. A 300 grain Nosler at 2200 fps...generates a-lot of recoil..and muzzle blast...to much for some to handle...and I for one wouldn't attempt to shoot it out of a light weight rifle.To me it makes sense to practice with the cheaper bullets and reserve the Noslers and other high priced bullets for hunting...the Noslers work...and work well...I haven't loaded any of the Barnes X-bullets yet for the 45-70...but hopefully that will change by years end...

I'm like many others here and  wouldn't put to much faith in anyone delibertly trying so hard to make people believe that our Handi's can sustain those high of pressures...they are not  as strong as a Ruger #1 or #3 or any bolt action...and never will be...but one can say that they will take the pressures of any of the Marlin loading data available and still be in safe territory...sure they are plenty strong for what we need to do with them...and that's fine with me...

I plan on trying the X-bullets when I get my 45-70 barrel fitted...these should work rather well for just about anything I hunt with them ...I have heard that they are a-bit picky on  getting them to shoot...but I'll give them a try anyway....I want to have a Buff Classic barrel cut back and recrowned at 28" that should help boost the velocity a wee bit...and if the lead is to short...I'll take DJ 's advice and get a reamer and open it up some...


Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...