Author Topic: Crud Ring (Read 1053 times)

trkyhuntr · « **on:** August 19, 2004, 11:57:03 AM »

I joined your site because I have a question.

I am considering buying either the TC Encore or the CVA Optima Pro. My question is do any of you with guns other than the TC Encore see the crud ring?

I understand that it is due to the 209 primer being hot so I would expect to see it other manufacturers products - unless it is a TC & 209 primer issue. Is this the case? I did a quick search to see and all I saw were TC guns experiencing the crud ring and no other manufacturers.

As for the "workaround" - the 25ACP conversion kit - if that is TC's solution, shame on them. If this is a problem only seen with a TC gun, then it needs to be fixed and not patched.

Thanks for your help.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** August 19, 2004, 12:11:25 PM »

Welcome to Graybeard Outdoors!

FWIW, I shoot 120gr T7 loads in 2 black diamonds with a musket nipples, with no "crud ring" that I've ever noticed other than the normal fouling ring in the charge area of the bore. Is this crud ring caused by 209 ignition, something more intense that the normal heavy fouling ring that is present in every muzzleloader I've ever fired? :?

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #2 on:** August 19, 2004, 06:48:43 PM »

Here is some of the information I have managed to collect. I have a T/C Omega and it showed the infamous crud ring when I shot it with T7 as I received the rifle. I don't believe this is a T/C unique problem other than they are the only ones I know that started supplying a breechplug with a completely flat front face. I think this was to prevent crushing pellets and may have been the primary cause of the poor ignition characteristics when used with loose powder. I understand that the Encore plug and the Omega plugs are basically interchangeable and the early Encore plug with a concave front face seems to cause less problem with loose powder. There are different reports from T/C owners as to how much problem the "crud ring" actually is. Some of this is that no one loads, shoots , swabs, reloads the same. I wanted to be able to shoot and immediately reload a second shot for hunting purposes. The flat face plug with loose T7 and shotgun primer would not allow that to happen. I switched to the .25ACP conversion breechplug (which has a concave front face by the way) and I can load three or four immediate shots with 80gr. T7 and 348gr Powerbelt bullets. I might have been able to do the same if I had one of the breechplugs for the shotgun primer which has a concave front face; I have not gone that far in checking as yet but have one on order just to finish the investigation. T/C sent me a second breechplug with the concave front face when I contacted them and voiced my concern that the flat front face might be causing a problem so I have to give them credit for immediate response to customer complaint. I just bought a second rifle Traditions Pursuit LT and will be checking it out for the same problems. It came with a breechplug with the concave front face so that might mean the problem will not be so noticable with it. I would not rule out T/C as a potential for purchase as I really doubt that the barrel itself is any different from any other muzzleloader it seems more likely that the breechplug is the cause and they are now supplying three different styles although I don't know what determines which one you get or need. If you shoot pellets the flat front face might be OK. Personally I think I would try to get the middle style which has a concave front face but has a thicker ring around the outside of the concave hole to help prevent crushing pellets so loose powder or pellets would both be OK. The Traditions breechplug looks a lot like the middle style of the T/C Plug. I hope this helps. If you want to run this into the ground you can contact me on my email at: klewisinc@msn.com. I will be out of town for a week but will respond as soon as I return on the 26th.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #3 on:** August 20, 2004, 01:05:59 AM »

First Welcome to Graybeard.

It is not unique to the T/C at all. I had 3 Knight Disk rifles that used the 209 primer and they got the crud ring also. After 2 shots I would have to clean the barrel in order to load the gun without having to beat the bullet down the barrel. I sold my Knight rifles and got the Encore's, I just like the Encore better, nothing to do with the crud ring. I just thought the crud ring was normal for muzzleloaders. :eek:

jgalar · « **Reply #4 on:** August 20, 2004, 01:38:27 AM »

My Remington inline came with the 209 system, before ever trying it I changed it to regular percussion caps. I have never had any problems with the"crud ring", missfires or hangfires.

smoky · « **Reply #5 on:** August 20, 2004, 03:25:44 AM »

In my limited experiences, it has to do with the burn characteristics of the 777. Both my Knight Wolverine and my Encore show the crud ring. It is not as bad in the Knight, but it is there. This Knight has shot pyrodex pellets for a few years prior to 777 and never had this problem. That is with #11 caps as an ignition source.

My Encore came with a concave breech plug. I liked the idea of the .25 acp conversion so I ordered it before my barrel arrived. My barrel came in first so I shot it 6 times with the 209 primers. Spit patch between shots allowed proper seating of Dead Center Sabots, but crud ring was prevalent. On one stroke, I thought I would never get the patch out.

The new breech plug is here and will get tested this weekend.

Smoky

TomD · « **Reply #6 on:** August 20, 2004, 04:05:10 AM »

I have experienced the crud ring with an NEF Huntsman w/ 209 primer. I would have to swab the bore (specifically the crud ring area) between shots to properly seat the next 295gr PB with 83grs of losse Pyrodex RS.

I also experienced the first shot flier syndrom with this rifle where the first shot out of a clean cold barrel would be several inchs from the grouping of the next 3 or so shots.

The flier syndrom did not give me confidence when hunting, so I traded my Huntsman toward a new Encore 209x50 and I look forward to testing it out. I also purchased the 25ACP conversion which should arrive soon.

I'm practicing my Bow shooting now as Bow season in CT opens Sept 15th, so it may be a couple of weeks before I get to the range with my Encore.

Bob the Cynic · « **Reply #7 on:** August 20, 2004, 05:31:56 AM »

I have a MDM Buckwacka and I get a crud ring with T7, I don't with Pyrodex. I use 209 primers with both propellents.

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #8 on:** August 20, 2004, 05:50:47 AM »

It keeps showing up that the problem is worse with 209 primers. That is one of the reasons the .25ACP conversion exists. If you have a rifle that can be converted to musket caps that is possibly a solution also. The other possibility is 209/4 (.410 primers) which I think are available only from Remington but I can't find anyone in the Phoenix/Mesa Arizona area that carries them or in fact have even heard of them. Also if using loose powder it is better if the breechplug has a concave front face. I have not tried my .25ACP conversion on my Stainless Omega with pellets yet but that is next on the list. This is really a problem only for the hunting situation where a second quick shot might be needed. I hunt Elk by myself and can't afford to let them get far as I might not be able to retrieve them if they run to a canyon. So far one shot did the trick but there is always that really tough one to deal with. I agree that 777 is worse than Pyrodex but it has a little more energy if that matters.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 20, 2004, 07:45:25 AM »

I had the problem with both the triple7 and Pyrodex, but more with the triple7. But now with the 25ACP conversion I can shoot the triple7 and have no problems like before. :-D The more I read about the 209 primer, the more I am convinced it is not good for muzzleloaders. JMHO.

upnorth · « **Reply #10 on:** August 20, 2004, 11:03:46 AM »

the 25acp conversion is aftermarket, not t/c. precision bullets makes them .