Author Topic: Scope question for very experienced p-doggers! (Read 4210 times)

Skeezix · « **on:** August 19, 2004, 04:01:21 PM »

I am rigging up to go prairie dog hunting for the first time this coming spring. I have heard lots of varying advice about what power range I need on my long-range, serious varmint-target rifles. The specific rifles in question are a Win 70 Coyote in .22-250 and an old model Ruger 77V in .220 Swift. I can't decide between a 4x-16x, a 6.5x-20x, or a 6x-24x scope. I've heard folks say that mirage makes anything above 12x or 14x unusable, and with higher power the field of view is so narrow that you can't find the little buggers. Other folks say that they can use up to 32x and that I need at least 24x on top end to get the most out of my rifles. To you guys that are VERY experienced shooting p-dogs (not just punching paper): What power scope do I need to put on these rifles to best be able to use their capabilities in the field, for p-dogging?

Two notes: I will not be loading to maximum levels, since I want my barrels to last more that a few hundred rounds. Also, I will be taking the following other rifles with me: a Ruger 77-.22 Hornet with a Leupold 3-9x Compact, a Ruger #1A .243 with either a 3-9x or 4-12x on it, a Ruger 77RL .250 Savage with a 2.5-8x Leupold Vari-X III on it, and probably a .22LR of some variety. For grins, and to have the loudest rifle on the prairie, I might also take a custom Sako long range target rifle in 6.5-.300 Weatherby with Hart stainless barrel.

Thanks in advance for your advice and the benefit of your experience.

Wlscott · « **Reply #1 on:** August 19, 2004, 04:31:06 PM »

I don't know if I would say I'm a "very" experienced prairie dog shooter, but I've been shooting them before I knew it was cool to shoot them :grin:

I have always liked a 4-16 range variable scope. I have a 6-24 on one of my varmint rigs, but rarely go over 16X on it because of mirage, "jiggles" and not to mention that you usually don't get to see the bullet impact on the prairie dog at higher magnifications.

My opinion, get a variable 4-16. If you get one that goes up to 24X or higher, you're going to find that you paid for a bunch of numbers that you don't ever use.

Good luck. Where are you going prairie dog shooting at?

KN · « **Reply #2 on:** August 19, 2004, 05:44:05 PM »

Wlscott is right on the money. If you go with too much power you wont see where your bullet hits. Then you are just guessing from shot to shot. I hardly ever go over about 11x when shooting my 22/250s. Any more than that and I cant tell what I'm doing. Also don't be sucked into the big ol lens trap. Any good quality optic will have plenty of light quality without having to go over 40-44 mm. The big 50's look neat but they really don't help. Your field of view is determined more from tube size and length than objective lens size. Personally I like the bushnell 4200's with a mill dot reticle but thats just me. KN

Ladobe · « **Reply #3 on:** August 19, 2004, 06:30:45 PM »

So you are asking for speculation and personal opinions is what it boils down to. I say that because that is what the answers to your questions are going to be... from me and anybody else who dives in trying to help out AND that has had a lot of actual field time shooting diggers. There are so many variables, that probably no two digger shooters will have had exacly the same experiences and conditions to deal with, even on each shoot they've been on... I know mine have varied mostly from shoot to shoot or location to location. So, all that hogwash aside...

I've shot diggers (PD's, RC's and GS's) for over 35 years, in several western states and under probably most conditions you'd ever encounter. For several years now I have hosted a 10 day annual invitational GS shoot each year in the same two large valley's up north for my main digger shooting (its known as Digger Wars), with some side trips for RC's in the surrounding mountains... and now days I only ocassionally travel to AZ to shoot PD's, instead of to UT, WY, MT and the Dakotas where I shot them many years ago, or to other states for other larger species of GS's only rarely now.

Diggers Wars is at a high enough elevation and at a time of year when mirage and anything more than a light breeze are rare conditions to deal with. That's good considering the small size of the Belding GS's we are after. Shots are limited to over 150 yards (by my choice), and in some fields have been out to in the 900 yard range -although one field you could shoot 2 miles if you could see them that far. Most shots are 150-600 yards though. Not far on average by PD standards maybe, but a long ways for as small of a digger as a Belding. Anyway, so higher scope magnification is a plus at Digger Wars, and you can usually use it without mirage most days. At DW I personally use specialty pistolas with from 6X to 12X EER/IER scopes, and the rifles with everything from fixed 12X-24X to 4X-32X variables on them - take 12-14 rigs along every year. You can't hit what you can't see, and a Belding at 750 yards takes some magnification for shot placement. On the other side, I can remember trips to the north PD states years ago where mirage was so bad that even a 4-12 scope had to be kept on the mid to low end to see anything clearly, not to mention dealing with the frequent high winds, dust and rain storms. Didn't have the hot wildcats in those days, so longish hits were probably more luck than talent in those conditions. Mirage can also be bad at the places I shoot PD's in AZ sometimes, at least by midday. During my Rocky Mountain RC days, shooting cross canyon usually in high winds at/above tree-line, mirage was seldom an issue and with 300 yard plus shots magnification was again needed to pick the RC's out in the rock slides.

So long short... a bright and clear variable with at least a fairly high top end is probably a good choice to handle whatever conditions you happen to run into. Use the high end when you can and back it down when conditions dictate doing so. Brands/models are all really a matter of personal choice. My pistolas mostly only wear Burris - my rifles Leupold, Nikon and Weaver. I am afraid I am from the old school that says you should spend as much or more for the glass as the rifle. Some of the cheaper glass will work just fine I am sure - I just can't make myself buy them to find out.

My Browning High Wall 22-250 wore a Leupold 6-18 Target, but I have several Leupold LR's in 6-24 and 8-32 that I like much better than the 6-18. The Weaver V16 and 24's have done well by me on my smaller wildcats, but I like the Nikon Monarch UCC's better (5.5-16.5X44). Have a couple of Weaver KT15's that work well on the 17 Hummers... most of my pistolas wear Burris, but I also have a few with the sadly long gone Tasco Pro Class 30mm jobs (6X) and Simmons Gold Medal 2.5-7's on several of my handcannons (they take the pounding but are the only scopes from these companies I have ever owned).

Lots of rabblings I guess - just my personal experiences and what has worked very well for me. Maybe some of it will help.

IMO & YMMV

Ladobe

warf73 · « **Reply #4 on:** August 20, 2004, 12:09:32 AM »

On my custom 22-250 I used a 6x-18x scope.
Now on my 204ruger Im useing a 6x-24x.

As posted above if you can't see them you can't shoot them.

I live in Kansas and on hot days mirage is bad. I noticed when I would hit the town(first light) I would crank the power up to max and as the day goes on the power would come down. Buy 4 or 5pm I would be on the lowest setting and only shooting out to maybe 150 yards if that.

Hope this helps Warf

Lawdog · « **Reply #5 on:** August 20, 2004, 12:43:45 PM »

Although I have not shot that many Prairie Dog's(less than 100) I have killed hundreds of Western Ground Squirrels and on all my varmint rifles(even my .22 Hornets) I have 6-24x 44 or 50 mm scopes mounted. And I use the higher powers most of the time. If you aim at a hair on a squirrel and miss by a 1/4 of and inch you'll never know it. Can't find the hole in what's left. Also makes seeing your target easier. Lawdog

Skeezix · « **Reply #6 on:** August 20, 2004, 06:54:25 PM »

Thanks guys!!! :agree:

Tomorrow morning I'm headed over to one of the local shooting emporiums that is usually well stocked with varmint/target scopes. I still can't decide between the 4-16x or the 6-24x, but my gut leans towards the lower power. Hell, I might just buy one of each!! I'll be looking at Leupold, Bushnell, Nikon, Burris, and Swift. It might take a trip or two to the field to decide which one I like the best.

Lawdog · « **Reply #7 on:** August 21, 2004, 09:08:33 AM »

Skeezix,

Check out the Black Diamond line of Burris scopes. This is the one I use now. Excellent quality, clarity and a guarantee equal to Leupold. You'll really like the Posi-Lock and side focus system on them. Lawdog

Skeezix · « **Reply #8 on:** August 21, 2004, 09:53:02 PM »

Today I went and looked at varmint scopes. Met several guys there that make a p-dog shooting trip at least once a year and a couple of them had been going twice a year for 40 years or so. Pretty good experience base. They had quite a varying preference for scopes, both brand and power range. Basically what I got from them was buy whatever blows your skirt up at the time, and if you don't like it, put it on a different rifle, trade it off, or sell it.

Looked at Leupold's new models: Nice but pricey, especially mil-dot versions.

Nikon: Good clear optics, priced about like a Leupold, not enough magnification for what I wanted, and not enough eye relief.

Sightron: More expensive than I expected. In their version of a mil-dot, the dots were so big you could hide an elephant at 50 yards behind them. The parallax adjustment was cheesy, and focus changed as you zoomed it.

Tasco: JUNK, nothing about it was very good.

Millett: good looking scope, clear, liked the features and price, but dealer said they had had several returns that had stuff come loose inside. But Millett replaced them promptly, but a couple had to be replace more than once before they got a good one.

Bushnell Elite 4200: Wow! Very bright and clear. Price was good. Liked everything about the scope, even though it was the longest scope I looked at.

Swift Premier: VERY surprising performance for the price. Bright, clear, fully multicoated optics, and parallax adjustment worked good. Stayed in focus as you zoomed. I liked them better than the lower priced Leupolds. Everything on them worked good and worked smooth. Their version of a mil-dot was very nice and allowed for precise shooting at small targets at any range I could hope to hit at. Great warranty. Dealer said he had less Swifts returned for warranty work than any other brand he carries, including the German and European scopes (and I have heard this from more than one dealer).

Burris Fullfield II: Bright, clear optics, everything on them worked good. IMHO as good as any Leupold under $600, and about a hundred bucks cheaper than the VX-III's. Liked the Ballistic Plex reticle.

Burris Signature Series: IMHO definitely brighter and more clear than any of the Leupolds under $600. Really nice scopes, everything worked smooth and worked good. Really liked the Ballistic Mil-Dot reticle.

Burris Black Diamond: OOOEEE!!! Definitely the Rolls Royce of American scopes that sell for under a Grand! Liked it a LOT. Brighter and, IMHO, more clear than the Leupold Long Range's. Again, really liked the Ballistic Mil-Dot reticle. Compared the Black Diamond to the German and European scopes there, and liked it the best of anything in the house. DROOL!!!

What did I get? Well,.... due to a somewhat severe case of pecuniary strangulation caused by a recent divorce, I couldn't afford the Black Diamond. So I decided to preserve some of my funds and leave them for seed in my "toys" account until I can save enough for the Black Diamond. In the meantime, to get shooting, I bought the Swift Premier Model 688M, 6-18 x 44mm with mil-dot reticle for 169 bucks. I mounted it using Weaver 2-piece bases and Millett Angle Lock rings. Made a very nice looking rig. I've been wanting to try out a Swift scope to see if they really are as good as what some folks say they are.

I'll let y'all know how it works out on the range.

Wlscott · « **Reply #9 on:** August 22, 2004, 05:31:04 AM »

I think you'll be surprised at the quality of the Swift. I know I was. I put a 4-12 Premier on my Winchester 300WSM. First time I took it to the range it was very overcast, rainy, and cool. We compared it side by side to a Leupold 4-12, and there was very little difference. I haven't used it on an actual hunt yet, but I'm looking forward to hunting with this scope.

Good luck with your new toy.

Feez · « **Reply #10 on:** August 23, 2004, 01:27:14 AM »

Just a quick note to tell you I appreciate the work you put into this topic.
I couldn't comment before because "back east" here the diggers are about 10 pounds and usually a good bit closer due to the terrain.
But I have been peeking around for scopes and info like this is valuable.
Thanks

Questor · « **Reply #11 on:** August 23, 2004, 04:02:32 AM »

I completely disagree with the idea that scopes above 14x are unusable. I just used the cheapest 6-24x scope available (Tasco Varmint) and it worked great on prairie dogs. I kept it at 18x. Above that it got cloudy and the mirage was too much on one of the days I shot. I discussed this topic with a very experienced prairie dog junkie and he keeps his Leupolds at 12x all the time because he's used to that setting and knows how to compensate for wind and trajectory with it out to 500+ yards on PDs. His scopes are clear at the highest magnifications (most are higher grade Leupolds, although he likes the cheap Tasco for his 22 hornet.).

I personally think the Bushnell Elite 4200s are the best value for high magnification scopes, although I have not broken down and bought one yet. If money were no object, I'd get one of the Leupold VX3s with the new varmint hunter reticle on it.

Dogshooter · « **Reply #12 on:** August 25, 2004, 01:34:42 PM »

I have a Colt 6742 with a Leupold 4.5 X 14 and a Bushmaster Varmint Master with a B&L 4200 6 X 24. Iusually grab the Colt because the 14 is plenty of magnification for my use. I take the Bushy out too but usually don't go past 16 or my old shakin bones render it pretty much useless.

Wlscott · « **Reply #13 on:** August 26, 2004, 02:29:29 PM »

Questor, I'm not saying that any magnification above 14X is unusable. Just that most of the time, on a prairie dog town, the temp is hovering around 100 degrees F, and that causes a lot of mirage. The scope itself may be perfectly functionable and clear, but with the heat mirage, it's hard to use really high magnifications.

HarleyD · « **Reply #14 on:** August 28, 2004, 10:33:23 PM »

you can shoot pd's with just about any good quality scope from 3X9 on up. mirage problems start at 9x and just get worse. a good 4x16 4200 or up will get the job done.