How finicky is your handi?

[Trapper-Jack]

I bought a .243 handi this spring with the thought that it would be a good rifle for my daughter to deer hunt with this fall, and I would also be able to load it with one of the lighter bullets for coyotes during the winter.  

A few weeks ago I began working up a coyote load for some 60 grain Sierra hollow points.  For years I have been using IMR 4064 and have quite a bit of it.  I began with five rounds loaded with 35 grains of powder, shoot them for grouping, then load five more with 1/2 grain more and so on.  I live out of town so I can shoot off the back porch.  Anyway, I was achieving about inch and a half to two inch groups at fifty yards until I reached 41 grains of powder.  Then the group shrank to less than half inch.  I then tried to refine the load around the 41 grain loading, but saw that the grouping really began spreading out with just 1/10th grain increase or decrease of that load.  

I am now trying to work up a load with a Speer 85 grain for deer season, and have had about the same results with it and have not yet found that sweet spot.  I get vertical stringing of about two inches and less than 1/2 inch wide.  I have tried the spacer under the forearm lug, it didn't change the results.  

Are your handi rifles as picky about what you feed it or do I need to be doing something different?  I'm wondering about a change in powder for it.  My other rifles are bolt actions with longer barrels and larger case capacity (30/06 and 7x57) and the IMR 4064 has worked great.  Maybe I should be looking at a faster burning powder in the shorter barrel?  What do you guys think?  

Any advice or experiences that you would be willing to share would be greatly appreciated.

[Mac11700]

Trapper-Jack:

Try resting the Handi up close to the hinge pin,and hold it steady in the bags..not putting a-lot of downward pressure into the rest,but firmly...don't let it bounce...and follow thru with the trigger holding it a while after it breaks...this seems to help with some of our Handi's....I don't know how far out your seating the bullet...but I had better luck with my 308 seating them further away from the lands with heavier bullets...just the opposite of what everthing I've read on realoding...



Mac

[Ditchdigger]

Mine works best with a bipod,and the forend floated with bussines cards. The other stuff did not work for me. Digger

[JPH45]

Handi's seem to me to be a world of their own more than other rifles. My best shooting has com from not cranking down on the forearm screw. In fact just a tiny bit of motion of the foream on the barrel seems to shoot better than any other way I have tried. Vertical stringing is not uncommon with these rifles, and yes, they will shoot increadibly good with a load, get just a gew 10ths off that and the group is traveling around again. If you have hit on a load that will give 1" or less every time you take it out, you've done very well and like the saying goes, don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

To put this in perspective, while many rifles will shoot a load or two into 1" most will vary and over a range of loads may only average 2" groups. Keep at it, the Handi will perform for you.

[Fred M]

JPH45.
I suppose you have read what I have done with my forearm. My idea is to eliminate any looseness along the barrel and action. You can't eliminate the vibrations but you can reduce the amplitude. The spray foam in the forearm seems to work well and so is the solid bedding of the hinge cap.

Vertical stringing is another story and at the present have not been able to completely eliminate it. But low pressure loads with slow burning powder really improve groups . A Greener cross bolt would really snug up the action.

I was looking at the 45-70 case head and compared it to the 06 and 223 type at 40kpsi the 45-70 produces 8040psi at the standing breech the 06 type at 50kpsi will produce 8650 an 8% difference. 50k is quite a mild load in 06 type case while 40 k in a 45-70 is right up there.

The 223 at 50K produces only 5600psi on the standing breech, this is one reason why the 45-70 and the 223 perform so much better in the Handi.
Fred M.

[Trapper-Jack]

I want to thank everyone for their responses.  There is some great stuff there for thinking on.  Also Fred M had some comments on another post about a .243 and the headspace needing to be about .003.  One of the things I have noticed with mine is that some of the shells will lock up a little harder than others, which makes me think that I may also not be getting a consistent sizing with my reloading technique, therefore not getting consistent lockup and possibly the cause, or part of the cause for the vertical stringing.  Some of these cases have been loaded up to 10 to 15 times while others have only 5 or 6 reloadings.  I may see about seating the die a little deeper into the press or possibly shimming the shell holder and see if that wont even out the headspace some and tighten up the vertical string.  
Thanks again for your comments, they are all worth consideration and any addition ones are welcome.

[James B]

Fred Thnks for your explaination on pressures in the Handi. I have noticed too that the 45-70 and 223 seem to shoot the best in these rifles. One exception seems to be my 280. It will shoot most any load under 2 inches and its best load under 1 1/2. My 44 Mag Handi is also very accurate. I had a 243 which shot light bullets well but didn't shoot well with 90 and 100 grain and shot very bad with Barnes X bullets. My 280 likes the Sierra 120 grain Pro-Hunter bullets at 2900 fps. It does almost as well with the 140 grain Nosler Ballistic tips. The 120 grain Pro- Hunter performed very well on Mule deer last year.

[Brett]

I have a Handi in.280 Rem that I picked up 2nd hand.  The previous owner had glass bedded the entire forearm from stem to stern.  I've never heard of this being done before on a Handi but I can tell you this, the gun can shoot 1 MOA groups with cheap Remington core-lokts in either 140 or 150gr if I do my part.   Since it shoots the core-lokts   so well I haven't bothered to try anything else.   As others have noted some calibers seem to be more finicky than others.  There is a lot of good tuning info on this site if you haven't done so already try the search function.

[Fred M]

Trapper Jack.
You should be able to push a sized or loaded case into the chamber with only strong thumb pressure and not have it stick out past the face of the barrel. Take a small ruler and lay it across the base of the case.
if you seee any daylight whatsoever between the back of the the barrel and the ruler, your case is too long.

What you want to see is a hint of daylight between the ruler and the case head. (0.003 head space). With this condition the action will close without any resistance and the latch is fully engaged.

That is the only way you will get any consistantcy, whith the latch in various positions of closure when the case sticks out accuracy is not likely to accure, and slamming the action shut is not a good way to close the gun.

There is a good reason for that, when you know your cases all fit well and the action does not clos easy, dirt is somewhere holding things apart, and slamming is not a cure for a dirty breech or chamber.

Yes the Handi's are finnicky. mostly for lack of attention
Fred M

[handirifle]

Trapper,
My Savage 243 LOVED IMR4350 with the 85gr bullets.

[dannyk]

My ultra 223 is picky about powder and bullets. It does not like the H335 powder with any weight bullet and that powder was developed for the 223. My particular rifle likes H322 powder with 40gr ballistic tip bullets. Also a slight difference in OAL made the thing shoot all over the place, was a lot of trial and error but the thing shoots good now.

[Trapper-Jack]

My thanks to all who replied with tips and experiences.  I am posting an update to some of my problems with this 243.  I think that I have solved the chambering problem.  I set the sizing die a little deeper in the press and then trimmed the brass back to 2.045".  I was able to find some time to shoot 20 rounds today and each one of them chambered like a factory round.  I also noted that there were no sticking cases.  The rounds are still stringing vertically with the 85 grain bullet.  I think that I will play with the powder amount and type and OAL and see if that will improve the grouping.  Again thank you to all who have contributed.

[MSP Ret]

Trapper-Jack, Just jumped into this thread and read your last post. Many times vertical stringing is caused by forearm pressure and contact, and many times that is exascerbated by the barrel heating up. From what I have read it seems that that Handis in .243 Winchesters with standard diameter (non bull) barrels seem to be prone to this problem. Try free floating the forearm, or if that dosen't seem to help try pressure on the forearm by using business cards or rubber shim stock or something similar and resting the rifle on the area of the reciever near the hinge pin for starters. Try several shots from a cold barrel on the same target to see if the vertical stringing goes away ....<><.... :grin:

[Longcruise]

I reached 41 grains of powder. Then the group shrank to less than half inch. I then tried to refine the load around the 41 grain loading, but saw that the grouping really began spreading out with just 1/10th grain increase or decrease of that load.

How many groups did you shoot per load as you worked up and how many shots per group?  How many groups did you shoot at 41 grains and how many shots per group at 41 grains?  How many groups and shots per group at the 1/10 grain variations?

Just wondering if you have enough samples to be reliable and repeatable or if maybe the results are random?

[Brett]

More Questions:

How well did you clean the barrel when you first got the gun? The barrels on these guns are usually pretty gunky from machine oil, shavings etc. and the rifling is often rough when new.  Some guys polish their bores with Fritz before they ever shoot them.  Do a search on 'barrel break in'

How much have you shot the gun so far?  I read it sometimes takes a couple of hundred rounds for these guns to settle in. This is probably related to the rough bore thing.

How tight is your forearm screw? You want it just snugged up but not tight.

What are you using for a rest, is it slick or tacky? Slick seems to work better. The theory here is more consistent movement during recoil.

Are you sure you are gripping the gun and resting it exactly the same way for every shot?  Watch your hand placement & how hard you are pulling the stock into your shoulder.

How much time are you allowing between shots?  Allow plenty of time between shots for the barrel to cool for best results.

Are you resting the gun close to the receiver or out toward the end or the forearm? Closer to the receiver is better.

Nah, these guns aren't picky. They just have character. :wink:

[Trapper-Jack]

Longcruise
In answer, my groups were five shots per group.  I shot one group at each loading, feeling comfortable with the sight picture when the rifle went off.  When I reached the 41 grain load, I shot two groups at that loading with the same results at that time, and since then have repeated it so decided to stay with that loading for the 60 grain hollow point bullet as a coyote load.  I am now trying to work up a load with a heavier 85 grain bullet for deer.

Brett,
I cleaned the barrel, hinge, and locking lug with alcohol before I began shooting it and have cleaned it after each shooting session.  So far I've shot about 150 rounds through it.  It could be that it needs more rounds through it for it to settle down.  I didn't do anything to it to polish the bore, only the chamber for the sticking cases.  
The forearm screw is not tight and I tried free floating the barrel with an o-ring spacer under, but I haven't tried the pressure point under the tip of the forearm like MSP Ret suggested.  
All of your questions give me some things to think about.  I'll keep experimenting as time permits and let you know my results.

[jeff223]

Trapper Jack you might want to look into having your barrel recrowned.it sounds like your barrel is holding zero but a new crown will help you out some on your group size.i had mine done and it helped some.allso keep in mind that these rifles dont shoot good with a hot barrel.once you get your rifle zeroed be concerned with you 1st and 2nd shot out of a cold barrel,these are the ones you will want to no where they hit with a cold barrel.a good hunting rifle is one that shoots good with a cold barrel.also when shooting for group size wait about 5 minutes between shots and see what happens.doing this will let the barrel cool and not over heat

these groups were shot with a 223 and a 30-30 and they took about 30 minutes each to shoot with the 5 minute wait between shots.remember these rifles are not bolt actions but will shoot very good if you have the patence to make they shoot.good luck

[safetysheriff]

 I think that I have solved the chambering problem.  I set the sizing die a little deeper in the press and then trimmed the brass back to 2.045".  I was able to find some time to shoot 20 rounds today and each one of them chambered like a factory round.    The rounds are still stringing vertically with the 85 grain bullet.  I think that I will play with the powder amount and type and OAL and see if that will improve the grouping.  Again thank you to all who have contributed.

Trapper,

Maybe I missed it while rushing through this post -- since I'm getting into it late -- but the .243 should be trimmed back to 2.035!    The 2.045 is actually the SAAMI max' length for that brass....       Yes, I've run my .223's 'long' in my Handi's with their long-necked chambers....but you may have a more exact chamber in your rifle.

I think IMR 4064 is Too Fast for the .243.    That cartridge is too-necked down (from the original form in the .308) to go with that powder -- in my opinion.     I'd try H-414 or Win' 760.     I would use standard primers, not magnums, and I would try both Win' and Rem' brass to see which works best.

You may have a vertical stringing problem from poor ignition.    I'd go with Lee's Factory Crimp die as my only means of crimping....seating the bullet in a separate step, of course.     A proper, consistent crimp may be lacking right now.    I'd also watch how well I'm seating my primers....using a good RCBS or Redding priming tool.    Seating primers consistently is very important.    

I'd also try using Hornady brand projectiles.     If your rifle likes them you'll have great results in accuracy and terminal performance.

Take care.

[snowbound one]

The best deer load in my .243 is R-P brass, WLR primer, 31 grains of H-Varget topped off with a Hornady Interloc 100 grain BTSP.   Consistant .5 inch groups at 100 yards..COL is 68mm and all loads crimped with Lee FCD.   Use this load and its venison steak, grits and gravy for dinner.

[Trapper-Jack]

Here is an update on how my .243 is doing.  First, thanks to everyone that has contributed.  You guys have really helped by giving me some things to think about and try.  

I stopped and bought a pound of IMR-4350 and gave it a try instead of the IMR-4064.  Instantly the grouping went from vertical stringing to round, somewhat larger than what I would like to see, but better than the vertical mess I was experiencing.  I again began increasing my load by 1/2 grain.  The groups decreased in size until 42 grains where they began to expand as the load increased.  I settled on 42.0 grains as optimum.  

Next I free floated the barrel by making a leather washer and putting it between the forearm stud and the forearm.  The point of impact changed but the group shrank even more.

Next thing I discovered is that this rifle does not seem to like boattail bullets.  When I changed from a boattail to a flat base bullet, it more or less began stacking them on top of one another at 50 yards, that is when I did my  part!

So far it shoots a 1/2 inch group at 50 yards with 42.0 grains of IMR-4350, CCI LR200 primers, and a Sierra 85 grain sp.  

Thanks again to everyone that helped.

[gwhilikerz]

Trapper Jack, my grandson's 243 does not like boat tail bullets either. In fact, just recently we bought two boxes of Remington ammo. We didn't notice that somehow we had one box of 100 gr. Core-Loct and one box of 100gr Premier Boat Tail. But we sure noticed at the range when the group sizes almost doubled  with the Boat Tails.

[Big Blue]

The most finicky Handi I own is my 7mm-08. I had it shooting 50 yard ragged hole groups with 140 gr. Barnes TSX bullets and 42.0 gr. of Varget. Then my scope mount came loose. I took off the scope tightened up the mount using Lock-Tite and rezeroed the scope. Now I'm having trouble duplicating those previous results. I'm also still having cases stick in that rifle.
Don

[Trapper-Jack]

Big Blue,
With my .243 I had some trouble with reloads sticking  in the beginning, even after smoothing up my chamber.  Since I began watching the overall case length and trimming them back to at least maximum length, I haven't had one stick.  Might be something to look at.

[Big Blue]

Big Blue,
With my .243 I had some trouble with reloads sticking  in the beginning, even after smoothing up my chamber.  Since I began watching the overall case length and trimming them back to at least maximum length, I haven't had one stick.  Might be something to look at.

Trapper Jack,
That makes sense to me, except I even have that problem using brand new Remington brass. I've taken up keeping a dowel with me when I shoot.
Don

[Trapper-Jack]

Big Blue,
One thing that I did with mine to help polish the chamber was to take a fired case from that rifle, drill out the primer pocket and thread it to 1/4 inch, thread in a short 1/4 inch section of all thread, coat it with tooth paste and spin it in the chamber with an electric drill.  Most tooth paste is a very mild abrasive.  After cleaning the tooth paste residue from the chamber, I experienced no stuck factory cases and after trimming, no stuck reloads.  That's what worked for me.

[Big Blue]

Trapper Jack,
  That sounds like a good idea. I'll give it a try. Maybe after I clean the tooth paste out, I'll follow it up with some Blue Wonder Armidillo wax. It works good in my lever action to smooth the action up.
Thanks,
Don

[quickdtoo]

And maybe a little "Scope"......mouth wash to clean up the tooth paste!

[Big Blue]

And maybe a little "Scope"......mouth wash!

What size? Would a 2.5X be better than a 4X?
Don

[quickdtoo]

That's a one size fits all! :grin:

[Donaldo]

I have only had one stuck case with my 223 Ultra.  Knew this was a problem and still did not take anything to the range with me to dislodge the case, but finally was able to get it out with my trusty Swiss Army knife.  After I got back home I did the case spin thing with Flitz on it, then used a wool mop for a 410 shot gun in the chamber.  I used red rouge buffing compound first and then some more Flitz and spun the mop with a screw gun.  I now have a very smooth and shinny chamber and don't expect to have any stuck cases either.  However time will tell.