Author Topic: Caliber? (Read 1633 times)

Pass the mustard · « **on:** August 23, 2004, 02:30:36 PM »

I appreciate all the advice you guys have given me. I won't be buying the rifle for a month or so. Maybe you could help me with the caliber. I like the prospect of a cartridge with lower recoil, and I only need enough power for deer, not elk. I ruled out a .243 because of a not-so-great selection of factory ammo, and the Handi can only stabilize bullets 85 grains and under (according to the threads I've read here). I could use a little more power than that, since I'm new at this game. The reason I was leaning toward the .270 is because the other calibers I was considering aren't available in the stainless model, which I would prefer. But I could also go with blued, if a different caliber would be a better choice for me. For my particular application (mule deer and maybe blacktail in northern Washington), I was also considering the 7mm-08, .25-06, and .308.

Since I'm not a handloader, a good selection of factory loads with premium (partition) bullets is important to me. The 7mm-08 and .25-06 are appealing for their accuracy and low recoil, but there doesn't seem to be many factory loads for them. I also thought I read somewhere that Handi's in .25-06 have poor accuracy, is that right? Or was that just one person that happened to get a lemon? The .308 has a huge selection of factory ammo, but it's a step up in recoil from the other two (about the same as a .270, isn't it?). I guess you can tell by now I don't like recoil. :mrgreen: I suppose I could install one of those liquid mercury recoil reducers in the buttstock.

Between these three calibers and the .270, can you provide any insights on which would be best for my situation? (I should probably mention that I only have experience with an AR-15 and a .45 flintlock.)

greenjeans · « **Reply #1 on:** August 23, 2004, 02:49:31 PM »

You are going to get a lot of opinions on this one, but I don't think you can go wrong with the .270 if you aren't really interested in a larger caliber. You can buy .270 ammo anywhere. I have a 25-06 in Ultra Handi and really like it, but would not make it my only rifle mainly because of ammo selection, since I don't reload either. My .270 is a Savage 110 and it is also a good rifle, though not expensive. I like soft point bullets and have a big selection for my .270 and 30-06, but nil for 25-06. Go with the .270 and you won't be sorry. Just my opinion.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #2 on:** August 23, 2004, 03:06:13 PM »

If you dislike recoil and want power for mid size game hunting with the added bonus of fairly long range accuracy go with the 7mm-08 and don't look back. It will shoot as well and kill as quick as many of the heavier recoilers you have mentioned. It seems to be the perfect solution to your search, and if you check different ammo manufacturers you will discover there are quite a few loadings out there, enough for everything on this continent and then some at least. If you spend just a few bucks for a Lee Loader and supplies you too can be a reloader!!!....<><.... :grin:

Sourdough · « **Reply #3 on:** August 23, 2004, 03:35:09 PM »

In my openion, there is little differance in recoil between the .270 and the 30-06. I feel the 30-06 is the most versitle cartridge made. The cartridges are found all over the world. The 30-06 is adiquate for anything in North America. I hand load and load everything from 100gr to 250 grain bullets. For foxes, cayotes, and wolves I like Speer's 125gr TNT. For Caribou I like Seirria's 165gr boat tails. For Moose and Bears I like Nosler 180gr partitions. Killed a Caribou Saturday with a NEF Handi Rifle in 30-06. 250 yards, one shot.

Fred M · « **Reply #4 on:** August 23, 2004, 04:12:13 PM »

sourdough.

Never thought the 125 TNT to be a hunting bullet, I have used them in the last score match in my 30 BR Bench gun, these bullets are extremely accurate. Won 3rd place in the match and the grand aggregate.

In a 30-06 the must really whistle, I get 2980ft in the 30 BR. The 30-06 is a hard gun to beat when it comes to hunting any game close and far.

Fred M

MSP Ret · « **Reply #5 on:** August 23, 2004, 04:22:50 PM »

Hey guys, I love my 30-06 as much as the next guy but remember this thread asked for a gun with not much recoil. The great old '06 (and .308) does have a bit of a bite to it to someone who dislikes recoil, that's why I suggested the 7mm-08....<><.... :grin:

De41mag · « **Reply #6 on:** August 23, 2004, 05:17:48 PM »

MSP Ret.

I think you made a point on the 7mm-08. I have two rifles (Not H&R or NEF's) but both are short 18-1/2" and 16-1/4 and the recoil is negligable.
Shooting 120gr. bullets is a pleasure and I've even got a reduced recoil load with IMR-SR4759 w/ 120gr bullets, and can shoot it all day.
If H&R made a 24" barrel I would get one but with a 22 incher, I don't feel I would be gaining anything to amount to justify a new barrel.
The Rem. Mod. 7FS is only in the 5 lb. + range.
Again MSP good advice. :-)

Dennis

handirifle · « **Reply #7 on:** August 23, 2004, 05:23:07 PM »

Pass
You're smart to avoid recoil if you do not like it. No sence making yourself flinch and miss. If it IS a big issue I'd suggest the 7-08, even with less selection. That said, you didn't mention the kind of yardages you'll shoot at. If it will be 200yds or less I'd take a long look at the 30-30 with 150gr loads. Very mild recoil and very effective too. No stainless barrel though.

just pick what serves your OVERALL needs. I'd suggest the '06 since you mentioned the 308 but it WILL kick. One nice thing about the Handi is if you don't like the first barrel, send it back and get a different caliber to try.

JimIowa · « **Reply #8 on:** August 23, 2004, 05:55:17 PM »

I live in a Shotgun only state for Deer. I can tell you that a 12ga Shotgun Slug puts out more Recoil than all the rounds discussed.

So, instead of getting into caliber choice, since I only shoot Varmint calibers. Let me say that you should not be too quick to rule out reloading.
It does not need to be expensive, you can get set up to load one caliber for around $100. Then as you chose to add calibers all you need is another set of dies.
Building your own ammo, is a pleasurable Hobby in itself! You can tailor it to your needs and it does cost less by about 1/3.
One Myth is that it saves you money! Not True at all! But your likely to shoot three times as much. Making you a better shot and having way more fun. The other thing is becoming more familiar with the rifle will reduce your perception of recoil.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 23, 2004, 07:17:34 PM »

I'll second the 30-30...it's a great round for whitetail...and ...help me out here guys...there is a member here that loads the lighter bullets as well as the 150-165 grainers with great accuracy...I forget who did it but his groups where outstanding...and I can tell you frommy own previous experiances with and old H&R Topper in 30-30 can do with a 130 grain pistol bullet at 200 yards on a whitetail...the 150's will work good too...and ever 30-30 H&R I have ever seen has been very accurate and very easy on the shoulder...and if you find it still too much...all you have to do is fill up the stock bolt hole with birdshot making it 1-2lbs heavier and it will dramaticly reduce the recoil even more for you....and as far as varminting with it...it does leave a lot to be desired...but a 223 makes a great varmint gun....

Mac

bubba · « **Reply #10 on:** August 24, 2004, 01:05:47 AM »

I own a 25-06 in the ultra. If it is recoil you are looking to eliminate, I would not choose this one. If it were me I would go with the 7-08. I ordered on ein a bolt and looking forward to hunting whitetail with it. The 25 to me seems as much recoil as 270 and it grandpa the 30-06

MSP Ret · « **Reply #11 on:** August 24, 2004, 02:38:05 AM »

You guys are right on with the 30-30. I still want a 30-30 barrel for one of my Handi's and am waiting for one to come up at a reasonable price so I can buy it. I think the 7mm-08 has it all over the 30-30 for longer ranges but the 30-30 is no slouch, especially for shorter shots of up to about 150 yards....<><.... :grin:

borg1 · « **Reply #12 on:** August 24, 2004, 02:48:48 AM »

The recoil in my handi .270 is ok, but i think the 7-08 would be a tad bit lighter kick but still has good bullet selection.

good luck!

Pass the mustard · « **Reply #13 on:** August 24, 2004, 04:35:24 AM »

Wow, thanks for all the advice. I also forgot to mention earlier that I recently got a .22 rimfire, mainly for lots of shooting technique practice.

I'm an average-build person, 5'10", 185 lbs., so it's not because I'm a smaller person. I guess my dislike of recoil is probably because with my limited experience, I haven't gotten used to it and built up much tolerance for it yet.

I initially rulled out the 7mm-08 because there didn't seem to be much factory ammo available for it. But maybe I should reconsider. I am interested in getting into reloading, if it can be done without taking out a second mortgage on the house. I didn't realize it could be done that cheaply. Maybe that would be the ideal solution for me.

What's the heaviest weight bullet a Handi in 7mm-08 can stabilize (I'm just wondering if the Handi's twist is fast enough for the heavier bullets, because I wouldn't want to be limited in my bullet selection).

borg1 · « **Reply #14 on:** August 24, 2004, 04:51:02 AM »

I can't help with spin rate, bullet sizes, etc. BUT, it will depend partly on your individual gun and then on how you choose to reload for it. [I am hoping more experienced reloaders of 7-08 will chime in.] It is true there are not many factory loads for this round, but the ones out there seem really good (Federal Trophy bonded, Winchester Fail Safe, etc.).

The cost of reloading is not bad if you can get over the intial expense of the press and scales (and whatever else you decide to buy, like a brass cleaner, case trimmer, etc.). Then there's the components... If you shoot enough, i am sure this expense will pay for itself inside of a year.

I was initially not liking the recoil of heavier cartridges, but i soon got over it. Again, recoil from my .270 Handi is really manageable. I could fire 2 boxes without really noticing it the next day. I am 5'10" and ~210 lbs. Besides, when a deer walks out, you won't notice it anyway

BTW, i've had really great accuracy in the .270 with Winchesters Power Points (130 gr). They're about $14 a box. You could likely reload them for about $6.

JimIowa · « **Reply #15 on:** August 24, 2004, 05:01:52 AM »

Quote from: Pass the mustard

Wow, thanks for all the advice. I also forgot to mention earlier that I recently got a .22 rimfire, mainly for lots of shooting technique practice.

I'm an average-build person, 5'10", 185 lbs., so it's not because I'm a smaller person. I guess my dislike of recoil is probably because with my limited experience, I haven't gotten used to it and built up much tolerance for it yet.

I initially rulled out the 7mm-08 because there didn't seem to be much factory ammo available for it. But maybe I should reconsider. I am interested in getting into reloading, if it can be done without taking out a second mortgage on the house. I didn't realize it could be done that cheaply. Maybe that would be the ideal solution for me.

What's the heaviest weight bullet a Handi in 7mm-08 can stabilize (I'm just wondering if the Handi's twist is fast enough for the heavier bullets, because I wouldn't want to be limited in my bullet selection).

You can buy a Lee Reloading kit for a very reasonable price.
It will provide you with everything you need to get started.
I really like the manual that comes with it, a real good read.

THats what I use, and iwhile it may not sound as impressive as Names Like Redding, Lyman, RCBS etc, it loads perfctly good ammunition.
I have shot Factory Class Benchrest with loads produced with it and done well.
The only thing you will need is Dies for your particular Cartridge, Bullets, Primers & powder. The most expensive componet is powder @ $15-$20 a pound. But when you figure that you will get hundreds of rounds from a pound of powder it is really cheap!

MSP Ret · « **Reply #16 on:** August 24, 2004, 05:03:05 AM »

I'm not sure of the 7mm-08 but I have a 7x57 Handi barrel. The 7x57 (7mm Mauser) is almost the same as the 7mm-08 with the 7mm-08 getting the edge in both velocity and energy. I have some 175 grain bullets I have to try for accuracy in it. With 140 grain bullets my 7x57 Handi barrel was shooting appx 3" groups at 250 yards!!! And this was off the hood of my truck in Maine during a winter coyote hunt when it warmed up to -10 in the afternoon!!! They both use the same .284 diameter bullets and I am told the Handi's have the same twist in both the 7x57 and 7mm-08. Of course there is the old (true) story of a famed african professional white hunter who used the 7x57 Mauser with heavy solids to kill many rogue elephants. Although not recommend for dangerous game, especially of that size, it has and can be done....<><.... :shock:

borg1 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 24, 2004, 05:11:54 AM »

I'd love a 7x57 barrel. Maybe they'll start making those again. Then again, i'd love them to chamber 7.62 x 39 Russian.

Speaking of reloading. Does anyone use only Collet dies for their reloading? I am thinking of getting a set of Collet dies for my Handi .223 and, of course, only reloading fire formed cases from this barrel.

JimIowa · « **Reply #18 on:** August 24, 2004, 05:40:00 AM »

Quote from: borg1

I'd love a 7x57 barrel. Maybe they'll start making those again. Then again, i'd love them to chamber 7.62 x 39 Russian.

Speaking of reloading. Does anyone use only Collet dies for their reloading? I am thinking of getting a set of Collet dies for my Handi .223 and, of course, only reloading fire formed cases from this barrel.

Will be getting my first Handi-Rifle soon in 22 Hornet.
Everyone says the Collet dies are a must for the Hornet Case so will have some soon.
I currently use RCBS dies for the .223 & .222 and have backed them out to necksize for my rifles.
However I like the concept of a perfectly round mandrel in the neck to size to. With the experience I have had with everything Lee Makes I am not the least bit hesitant to buy their dies.

By the way the kit one should look for is the Lee Classic Aniversary, Midway has them for around $75-$79.

JPH45 · « **Reply #19 on:** August 24, 2004, 12:46:46 PM »

I only scanned through the replies, so if I meissed something, please forgive. I would strongly suggest that you look into a 308. there will be no practical difference in recoil between the 7-08 and the 308. Both shoot the same basic bullet weights at practically identical velocities. The case is the same sot he powder charges would be quite similar. I simply dont see any diference in recoil. There is however a great difference in available actory ammo. There is a plethora of 308 factory ammo in virtually any bullet weight you would want and with the new Hornady downloaded stuff, you can get 30-30 performance out of a 308 with factory ammo. The 308 fits right in with the cartridges you have mentioned and will perform just as well as any of them and would. In case you wondered, the 308 started life as the 7.62 Nato and the design intent was developing a cartridge that equalled the 30-06 with 150 grain bullets in a smaller package.

handirifle · « **Reply #20 on:** August 24, 2004, 01:53:59 PM »

Pass
As usual JPH45 has a good thought. The recoil of the 7-08 and 308 are not gonna be much different, if at all. Heavier weight bullets are available for the 308, but it is a bit much for the varmint end. Why not get a good deer barrel and later ad a 223 or 22-250 or 204 when they come out?

LOTS of loads are available in the 308 but the 30-06 is gonna have the most selection of all. When I build my mountain rifle it will be a synthetic stocked Handi in 30-06. It will kick but it will be light, durable, and take down ANYTHING I encounter in the lower 48.

Buffalogun · « **Reply #21 on:** August 24, 2004, 03:10:22 PM »

Pass the mustard,

I'll echo what others here have written regarding the 7-08 Remington. This cartridge was never downloaded by the factories and will launch 140g bullets at 2,800+ fps. This is just about perfect for a deer cartridge, as it carries plenty of energy down range without being as destructive on meat as the .270 and others on that case.
My 7-08 is a synthetic boltgun(weighs six pounds without scope) and doesn't kick as much as my uncles heavier blued/walnut .308 boltgun.

Anyway, the factory 7-08 loads should do you fine. I handload Hornady Interlocks and have not experienced any problems.

It's a good round!

Buffalogun

fish280 · « **Reply #22 on:** August 24, 2004, 05:38:34 PM »

go with the .308. jph, a fellow alabamian, is correct on the recoil. check out the recoil calculator at realguns.com. it is an eye opener.

fish280 · « **Reply #23 on:** August 24, 2004, 05:45:15 PM »

just ran four fictional loads through the calculator. i figured 40 grains of powder for each, and an 8-pound rig all up. add a pound or so for a 7-pound rig.
.308, 150-grain bullet, 2,800 fps, 15 foot pounds of recoil
.308, 165-grain bullet, 2,700 fps, 16 foot pounds
7mm-08, 140-grain bullet, 2,800 fps, 13 foot pounds
7mm-08, 162-grain bullet, 2,700 fps, 16 foot pounds.

handirifle · « **Reply #24 on:** August 24, 2004, 06:12:50 PM »

Yea the only downside I see to the 308 is there isn't a good varmint load (that I know of) and you could probably find one in the 7-08.

Still think if the huntin's close and recoil is an issue, I'd go 30-30. Better to be very accurate with slightly less punch than to flinch with a heavier caliber.

Sourdough · « **Reply #25 on:** August 24, 2004, 08:49:39 PM »

You know guys, I used to be very recoil sensative. I was 6'2" weighed 140lbs. And I had never shot enough to know how to hold a rifle properly. I'm now over 220lbs and have enough experience to be able to properly hold a heavy recoiling gun. One thing I have noticed, recoil is a direct responce from the weight of the bullet and the velocity it is being propelled at. In other words a light loaded 110gr bullet in 30-06 will have far less recoil than a factory, or factory duplicating load with a 180gr bullet in the .308. The factory 175gr 7mm-08 will also have a heavier recoil.

Second if you're reloading you don't have to have that 110gr load cooking out over 3300ft per second. Slow it down to under 1900fps, that would make it very pleasurable to shoot. Then as you gain experience and tollerance speed them up. That's what I did. I used to hate shooting factory loads in my 30-30 or .308. They just kicked too hard. Then I started reloading and tamed them. Now my reloads usually exceed factories and they are nothing to me. Those speed came from the Speer Manual.

Fred M: The Speer .30 cal 125gr TNT makes a good hunting bullet for varmits. They are very explosive when they hit anything. They will not work for Deer or any thing large. But for ground hogs, and prarie dogs, they are good. On foxes and cayotes you will get a lot of pelt damage. I like them for wolves, because they usually anchor the wolf right there. Wolves are large enough that you don't tear up the hide, but there is so much damage done to the internal organs that his lights are out almost instantly.

Pass the mustard · « **Reply #26 on:** August 24, 2004, 09:26:31 PM »

I'm not interested in varmint hunting, just deer. Maybe boar or pronghorn someday if I ever get the opportunity, but just deer for now. I called NEF this morning, they told me the twist for 7mm-08 is 1:9 1/2.

I guess it's between the 7mm-08 or the .308. Thanks for the input, lots to think about...

borg1 · « **Reply #27 on:** August 25, 2004, 02:18:46 AM »

I love my .308, and there is a really wide array of bullets to be loaded for this caliber. For varmint rounds, i would download the cases for extended shooting sessions. BUT the main thing about this cartridge is you can kill just about anything in the lower 48.

I might be opening a hornets nest here, but i never worry about losing a few pounds of meat off the shoulders on deer. We're talking about a few pounds of burger anyway. I'd sooner anchor them, makes my job a lot easier after the shot :wink:

That's the luxury of shooting a .270 cal or larger bullet.

handirifle · « **Reply #28 on:** August 25, 2004, 04:53:55 AM »

With a 1-9 1/2 twist rate it sounds like the range of bullet acceptance with the 7-08 would be better than the 243 with a 1-10. The 30 cal NEF's are 1-10 which is good for most all normal weights.

Too bad they don't put that fast a rate through the 243 to help it stabilize the 100gr loads better.

Either the 7-08 or 308 would be a fine choice. If the 7-08 can accurately shoot the 175gr bullets, you'll give up nuthing to the 308. In fact I'll stick my neck out here to say that with its better BC you'll do better than the 308, with equal bullet weights.

tony212 · « **Reply #29 on:** August 25, 2004, 11:22:20 AM »

Just one other option to keep open is Remington and Federal now both make low recoil .30-06 and .270 ammunition. Check out their websites. If the low recoil in either of these rounds is acceptable you will have two fine choices for deer rifles.
Tony212