Author Topic: Swifties--who cares?  (Read 3156 times)

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Offline magooch

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Swifties--who cares?
« on: August 24, 2004, 02:59:27 AM »
Is anyone else getting a little put off by all the John Kerry swift boat controversy?  I really don't give a crap what Kerry did or didn't do in Vietnam; I wouldn't vote for him if he were the biggest hero who ever lived.
 
It seems to me that a normal well adjusted person would be a little embarassed to make a big deal out of some minor superficial wounds such as Kerry received for his three purple hearts.  I wouldn't fault him for a minute for the service (short as it was) that he did in Vietnam, but if that is his most significant qualification to be President, I'm underwhelmed.

I think Kerry is probably smart enough (probably not as smart as he thinks he is) to be President, but is he wise enough?  It would be great to have a President who is truly intelligent, glib, humble and wise.  The problem is, anyone who possesses all of these attributes would surely be too wise, humble and intelligent to get mixed up in such an endeavor.
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Offline Major

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« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2004, 04:39:37 AM »
All I can say is Kerry's voting record speaks for it's self.   Since 1988 he has voted against every military acquisition and for every gun control bill.   That right there tells me he is not a friend of this country or it's sportsmen and sportswomen.   All he wants is power for himself at our expense.
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Offline FWiedner

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« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2004, 05:38:32 AM »
Quote from: Major
All he wants is power for himself at our expense.



Agreed.  His interest is not America, his interest is his ego.
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Offline jh45gun

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« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2004, 05:49:03 AM »
I care for the simple reason it shows what a liar he is and that needs to be expressed to the swing voters!
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Offline Dali Llama

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Re: Swifties--who cares?
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2004, 08:08:33 AM »
Quote from: TM7
Quote from: magooch
Ed Koch, past mayor NYC, and big city quintessential democrat, has come out in support of Bush!....
:shock:  :eek:  :eek:  :eek:  :shock:
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Offline Major

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Re: Swifties--who cares?
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2004, 10:39:52 AM »
Quote from: TM7


Snip...

Ed Koch, past mayor NYC, and big city quintessential democrat, has come out in support of Bush!....doesn't like his domestic policies, but says this election is all about the war on terror and so he's supporting Bush.....

................TM7


That says a lot.  

I wonder why we don't hear that over here on the West coast?   :roll:
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Offline Leftoverdj

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« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2004, 11:39:51 AM »
I care.

I care about the vicious fabricated attacks on anyone's service. Some of you may recall that I have defended Bush's National Guard Service. Even the worst of that debate was at least based on the records.

The attacks on Kerry completely ignore and contradict both the records and what the attackers themselves are on record as saying in years past.

I'm flat disgusted at the behavior of both sides in this election and have every intention of voting for one of the minor parties. It's my duty to vote, but I ain't gonna vote for nobody as reprehensible as Bush or Kerry.  Our country is in sad shape when those two are the choices.
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Offline Dali Llama

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« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2004, 01:42:34 PM »
Quote from: Leftoverdj
I'm flat disgusted at the behavior of both sides in this election and have every intention of voting for one of the minor parties.
Dali Llama say that such vote help to ensure victory of Kerry. :x  :P  :evil:
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Offline Hooker

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« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2004, 01:56:51 PM »
I'd be happy if they'd drop the service issues. But the dems will not let it go because thats all that kerry has got. He cant run on his record over the past 19 years,  gun control, abortion, defence, or the economy.
If you take vietnam away from him he couldn't get elected to shovel poop at the dog pound.

Pat
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Offline powderman

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« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2004, 02:29:26 PM »
I think the dems have a lot of gaul  to complain about the swifties, the dems even had a movie made for them by the low life michael moorer. I guess the truth hurts. POWDERMAN.  :x  :evil:  :evil:  :evil:  :x  :x
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Offline IntrepidWizard

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« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2004, 02:50:24 PM »
I care Left,you voted for Willie the Draft Dodger Purgerer,and now you want Skeery Kerry who won't release his entire records and you are on who wanted and got Bush's entire records,Liberals are hypocrits to the core.
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Offline Leverdude

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« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2004, 03:18:54 PM »
Quote from: Hooker
I'd be happy if they'd drop the service issues. But the dems will not let it go because thats all that kerry has got. He cant run on his record over the past 19 years,  gun control, abortion, defence, or the economy.
If you take vietnam away from him he couldn't get elected to shovel poop at the dog pound.

Pat


I'd vote for Kerry to be a pooper scooper.  :)
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Offline Mauser

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« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2004, 03:47:22 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, Leftover, but isn't the main beef the swift boat vets have with Kerry is what he said about his fellow vets after his service?  That said, Kerry, not Bush nor the vets, has made his service the centerpiece of his campaign and that makes it fair game for evaluation and, if appropriate, criticism.  

Lots of folks have served this country in war and peace and no one has a monopoly on honor or respect-not even decorated war veterans.   In my experience, the folks who wear their service on their sleeves are the least believable on the subject.  I have the utmost respect for the guys who where "there" and saw or did "it" and either won't ever talk about it or it has to be dragged out of them.  Kerry is clearly using his 4 month tour to get the big prize.  I can't stand him.  

Kerry is seeking to become the most powerful human in the world and has a very good chance of succeeding-I want to find out everything I can.  I trust only my own BS detector.  If a bunch of guys who served in 'Nam, have a point of view, let them put it out.  I'll decide for myself.

Offline Leftoverdj

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« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2004, 09:52:44 PM »
Mauser, fine with me when people dislike Kerry for his anti war activity as long as they keep their claims truthful. I ain't remotely a Kerry supporter.

My beef is with the people who are so bitter and so hatefilled that they make up lies to belittle what was pretty distinquished service. (A lot better than either mine or George Bush's, to tell the truth.)
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Offline Leftoverdj

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« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2004, 10:00:47 PM »
Quote from: IntrepidWizard
I care Left,you voted for Willie the Draft Dodger Purgerer,and now you want Skeery Kerry who won't release his entire records and you are on who wanted and got Bush's entire records,Liberals are hypocrits to the core.


Just for the record, Wiz, I did not vote for Clinton; I don't want Kerry OR Bush; I never asked for Bush's records and, in fact, defended him. I don't approve of attacks on anyone's service. An honorable discharge is good enough evidence for me.

And for about the tenth time, I am not remotely a liberal. I am a very old fashioned small gubmint, individual liberty, strict constructionist conservative.
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Offline Mauser

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« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2004, 12:53:09 AM »
I, too, would much prefer that service records didn't enter politics and that everybody respected each other's service.  Also, I'm no particular fan of George Bush or his big govt ways.  It is undeniable, however, that John Kerry, a several-term US senator, has made his service an issue.  This point cannot be glossed over.  We have to assume that Kerry, a career pol, knows about politics and the cesspool it is.  Kerry has invited the attention to his record and must accept the various interpretations of it politically.  Everybody's service can be interpreted by those who were "there."  Kerry comes off to me as having poor character by raising the issue and then running off to the fed election commission when not everybody agrees with him.  Simply put, if he didn't want it discussed in the context of a modern presidential election with everything that implies, HE SHOULDN'T HAVE BROUGHT IT UP.

Bush, by comparison, has tried to distance himself from his own service (draw your own conclusions) and has never, directly at least, addressed Kerry's.  I find Bush's behavior on this narrow point more honorable than Kerry's.  

I've heard the latest swift boat ad, and it seems to me that it only addresses Kerry's self-serving 1971 senate testimony.  I suspect that if Kerry had never mentioned Vietnam, we would not have heard anything from the vets or anyone else about Kerry's time "in country."  Guys like Joe Pondner (sp?) do not strike me as political hacks.

Offline Hooker

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« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2004, 07:48:47 AM »
Quote from: Mauser
I've heard the latest swift boat ad, and it seems to me that it only addresses Kerry's self-serving 1971 senate testimony.  I suspect that if Kerry had never mentioned Vietnam, we would not have heard anything from the vets or anyone else about Kerry's time "in country."  Guys like Joe Pondner (sp?) do not strike me as political hacks.


Kerry's service while in Veitnam should be  of little concern, It's his actions after his return to the states that should be the real issue.
His testimony to the senate. These words make him either a liar or a war criminal period.
After his return to the states he was place in the reserves, And while in the reserves he met with North Veitnemese leader in Europe. This is  not exactly a reservists place to do. I beleive it's called aiding the enemy.  
This action makes him a traitor.

Gee I guess the Swifties are right he is Unfit For Command.


Pat
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Offline Leftoverdj

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« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2004, 08:26:12 AM »
We're gonna hafta disagree on this one, Mauser. Kerry has a war record, a pretty good one. He's entitled to run on it just as Bush 41, Dole, McCain, Stockdale, JFK, et al ran on theirs. Running on your war record is not an open invitation for nuts to come out of the woodwork telling lies. It especially is not an invitation for your opponents to fund and assist the nuts.

A few things are worthy of note. Where records exist, they support Kerry's service and confute the claims of those attacking him. Many of those now  attacking have made public statements in support of Kerry's service in the past. The attackers offer not one particle of documentary or contemperaneous evidence. O'Neill has been a bitter political opponent of Kerry for over 30 years. Had he had any evidence that Kerry had faked wounds, falsified reports, etc., he would have used it in '71.

Something else worthy of note is that George Bush and Karl Rove have a long history of stealth smear attacks on opposing candidates. There may be slight direct evidence that they directed the smear campaigns, but it is more than coincidence that every single opposing candidate has been the target of such a campaign. McCain was the most recent victim and Kerry is running ads showing McCain's response. Ann Richards and Jim Hightower were two previous victims and there are others that do not immediately come to mind. I do not find it admirable that Bush piously decries mudslinging while paying Karl Rove to do it for him.
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Offline tubbythetuba

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« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2004, 03:41:45 PM »
They both sling a little mud........Kerry's side much, much more.  It will come down to who people think is more credible. Just The Christmas In Cambodia Story alone will sink him.  Every Nam story he's told is leaking worse than a mined Swift Boat. On the whole, he did his job on the boat, but look: When he first put in for Swift Boats, they did not have that dangerous a mission, just coastal patrol......shortly after he was accepted, they were given the river patrol gig; drawing fire and search and destroy missions, etc. Three PHs and you were out.....man he got his PHs real easy, real cheap and put in for the last one that put him out and that one was, according to the guy he saved, was a piece of RICE in the butt from a sampan he blew :-D. I, more than most appreciate your evenhandedness, but Kerry stinks to high heaven, DJ. Common :roll:
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Offline ironglow

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« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2004, 04:19:18 PM »
No complaints about Kerry's service in Viet Nam ...it is what he did to the other troops after he was safely ensconced at home, that troubles many of us!..
 
He provided aid and comfort to the enemy...and accused all our troops  of being "baby killers" and war criminals.
   
His address to the senate hearings was piped into the Hanoi Hilton, where the POWs were told that his testimony made them subject to war crimes trials...

   He may have served his 4 months well, but that can all be erased, ...by him!

   Benedict Arnold served his country heroically..until he decided to betray that country...
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Offline powderman

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« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2004, 04:50:24 PM »
IRONGLOW. Agreed Sir. Only God knows how many more Americans lost arms, legs, eyes, or died thanks to hanoi john and jane. He was,and is, a traitor and should have been arrested many years ago. POWDERMAN.  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x  :x
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Offline Leftoverdj

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« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2004, 06:34:56 PM »
Quote from: tubbythetuba
he got his PHs real easy, real cheap and put in for the last one that put him out and that one was, according to the guy he saved, was a piece of RICE in the butt from a sampan he blew


Tubby, I'm sorry, but that's simply not true. Kerry's enemies have taken portions of several different events and combined them to discredit Kerry. I looked it up and Rassma does not claim that Kerry got a Purple Heart for that incident. The PH in question was for a shoulder injury incurred during the two explosions when Rassman was thrown overboard. Rassman does tell the story about Kerry getting stung when they blew up a rice stockpile on shore, but it had nothing to do with any medal.

The sampan apparent comes from Kerry's first PH. He was in a small boat known as a Boston Whaler with two other guys, who are both still available, sinking sampans ferrying supplies for the VC. One of the sampans blew up with a mighty bang and Kerry recieved a minor wound. The source of the fragment seems unprovable and really doesn't matter. It could have come from a shot fired from Kerry, from one of the men with him, from the sampan, or from munitions on the sampan.

Here's the applicable regulation:

http://www.purpleheart.org/Awd_of_PH.htm

The relevant section reads:

(b) Individuals wounded or killed as a result of "friendly fire" in the "heat of battle" will be awarded the Purple Heart as long as the "friendly" projectile or agent was released with the full intent of inflicting damage or destroying enemy troops or equipment.

All this was known at the time and Kerry has never made any secret of it.  There is absolutely nothing discredible about it.
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Offline Mauser

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« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2004, 11:38:24 PM »
I wasn't there and I haven't done exhaustive research on who is telling the truth on this.  Like all such things, it is pretty hard to tell who is lying when we can't really trust the media to play it straight.  The media-both left and right-have an agenda and there is very little trustworthy journalism around these days.  I would be highly reluctant to accuse someone who served of lying because of some press account.  I don't want to take issue with Kerry's service, as it is a whole lot more distinguished than my peacetime service and because I was raised to respect those who served.   But I'm willing to listen to those who have an educated or informed opinion on the topic.  The stakes, unfortunately, are too high not to.

Maybe my thoughts on this issue are colored by the fact that I'm turned off by pols who run on their war records much like I'm turned off by those who wear God on their sleeve.  Folks who served during wartime had the opportunity (misfortune?) to have their character revealed that eludes someone who might be just as good or better but didn't, for whatever reason, serve in a war.  The politicians running on their war experience say: "I served, he didn't, I'm better."  It may be true but it isn't necessarily so.  Wartime experience isn't, for example, very instructive on a person's honesty or intelligence-more relevant qualifications for high office IMO.  Because a guy bled in a war tells me nothing about his understanding and philosophy of economics or whether he is going to further extend the govt in my life.

The truth is there are Sgt Yorks, Audie Murphys, and Chesty Pullers out there who have never been shot at because of WHEN they were born or other circumstances preventing war service.  (I am NOT speaking of W here).  They might make great presidents, but we probably would never know if they have the misfortune of running against a prima donna war vet who just can't be questioned.

I've had the privilege to have known well a few family members who were in the thick of it-two in WWII and one in Vietnam.  Their experiences scarred them and they didn't talk about it easily. In fact the rare conversation was usually accompanied by tears.  They certainly never used it to gain advantage or put down someone else.  

Because Kerry talks about his service so easily, almost flippantly, and solely to gain advantage, cheapens it for me and gives me the impression that something stinks somewhere.  It also seems to me that Kerry's use of his service differs from the way Bob Dole talked about his.  There was "something" more reverent and reserved about the way Dole spoke of Anzio.  I don't remember him getting up and saluting a bunch of liberals who would never dream of serving, except for maybe at a Yale keg party, while saying "I'm reporting for duty."  Kerry is a cheap lounge act.

Offline magooch

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« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2004, 03:48:56 AM »
Mauser, you are right on.
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Offline tubbythetuba

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« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2004, 06:04:17 AM »
Quote from: Leftoverdj
Quote from: tubbythetuba
he got his PHs real easy, real cheap and put in for the last one that put him out and that one was, according to the guy he saved, was a piece of RICE in the butt from a sampan he blew


Tubby, I'm sorry, but that's simply not true. Kerry's enemies have taken portions of several different events and combined them to discredit Kerry. I looked it up and Rassma does not claim that Kerry got a Purple Heart for that incident. The PH in question was for a shoulder injury incurred during the two explosions when Rassman was thrown overboard. Rassman does tell the story about Kerry getting stung when they blew up a rice stockpile on shore, but it had nothing to do with any medal.

The sampan apparent comes from Kerry's first PH. He was in a small boat known as a Boston Whaler with two other guys, who are both still available, sinking sampans ferrying supplies for the VC. One of the sampans blew up with a mighty bang and Kerry recieved a minor wound. The source of the fragment seems unprovable and really doesn't matter. It could have come from a shot fired from Kerry, from one of the men with him, from the sampan, or from munitions on the sampan.

Here's the applicable regulation:

http://www.purpleheart.org/Awd_of_PH.htm

The relevant section reads:

(b) Individuals wounded or killed as a result of "friendly fire" in the "heat of battle" will be awarded the Purple Heart as long as the "friendly" projectile or agent was released with the full intent of inflicting damage or destroying enemy troops or equipment.

All this was known at the time and Kerry has never made any secret of it.  There is absolutely nothing discredible about it.


Ok, I'll grant you all of the above. There is still enough of my thinking that is spot on. The Christmas Story.......the mission of SBs when he applied for duty and how that changed and what he thought of it. How on one hand he has based his entire race on VN and on the other he was quoted as saying the VN was a huge nothing. How he admits commiting deadly atrocities against non-combatants, and flays Bush for panties on some POWs head :roll: On and on, Sir. There are more holes in his stories than swiss cheese. I, IMO, liken him to a military version of Hanoi Jane. I've arrived at these conclusions after much thought. Bush is not my favorite CinC, heaven knows, but he's all we got and I don't honestly think we could survive a round of Kerry.
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Offline Leftoverdj

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« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2004, 07:35:51 AM »
Tubby, nothing in this mess, not even the Christmas story, is as clear as Kerry's detractors would have you believe. I don't know that that Kerry was in Cambodia, but I don't know that he wasn't either. I do know that the claim "Kerry would have been court martialled if he had been in Cambodia." is not to be believed. In the same time period, another boat captain disobeyed orders and went up one of the rivers that form the border to attack a VC tax collector. When this was brought to Elmo Zumwalt's attention, rather than a court martial, the captain got a Silver Star and more boats were sent into the border area. I can dig out the details if you want them.

Another part of the Christmas story fuss that grates on me is the claim that Kerry was lying because he said years later that he had been been shot at by the Khymer Rouge when Kerry's time in Nam was before the formation of the Khymer Rouge. This strikes me as big whoop about nothing. There were Cambodian communists insurgents operating at the time, they did shoot at Americans, and what they called themselves then is pretty much irrelevant.

When I rooted around in the atrocities thing, what I found was that there was an incident in which Steve Gardner had shot up a boat and killed a child before the occupants were found to be civilians. There were also village destroyed as a matter of policy. I found no evidence that Kerry or his crew were more or less guilty than thousands of other Americans, which was pretty much Kerry's point.

The point I am beating at here is that you have to have some background and some empathy, Americans did terrible things in Viet Nam. That's pretty much the nature of war. Some people managed to rationalize the terrible things and others were outraged by them. I make no secret of being one of those who was outraged and I can understand why Kerry, who had a far worse war than I did, was also outraged.
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Offline Hooker

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« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2004, 07:47:35 AM »
Just a thought since Kerry has admitted to atrocities and war crimes he committed while in Veitnam. Will he if elected pardon the guards from Abu Grabe. I don't think he will. The man thinks he should be beyond reproach for any and everything he does or has done. He has attacked the Presidents service record yet accuses him attacking his record and demands that it be stopped. He has accused the Republicans of Fear and smear And in the next breath calls Bush a liar and tries to frighten us with liberal thoeries of gloom and doom.
The Republican need to move away from this issue and stick to the important things like national security, defence, economy, jobs, and health care. These are the things they can win on because Kerry's record in these areas speak volumes about his inability to lead this nation.
The libs love to mire us down in trivial garbage on such things as character. To majority of Americans character is not a issue after all they elected Clinton a man with no character and no soul. Americans will elect the man they believe will get the job done Period.

Pat
" In the beginning of change, the patriot is a brave and scarce man,hated and scorned. when the cause succeeds however,the timid join him...for then it cost nothing to be a patriot. "
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"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."
-- Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787. ME 6:373, Papers 12:356

Offline IntrepidWizard

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Swifties--who cares?
« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2004, 07:47:59 AM »
READ MY LIPS LEFTY,Kerry Lied about his war record.Kerry will not release his War Records.Kerry in his own words is a TRAITOR and WAR CRIMINAL.All indisputable facts.
Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! Like fire, it is
a dangerous servant and a fearful master. -- George Washington

Offline IntrepidWizard

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Swifties--who cares?
« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2004, 08:01:15 AM »
Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! Like fire, it is
a dangerous servant and a fearful master. -- George Washington

Offline tubbythetuba

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Swifties--who cares?
« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2004, 08:56:21 AM »
Quote from: Leftoverdj
Tubby, nothing in this mess, not even the Christmas story, is as clear as Kerry's detractors would have you believe. I don't know that that Kerry was in Cambodia, but I don't know that he wasn't either. .


Leftoverdj, like I stated before, I came to my conclusions just by listening to Kerry's own words. His detractors have done the research and ferreted them out for me (I hate research) but his own words contradict themselves. He's been caught, using his own quotes, in numerous, shall we say, confusions  about his exploits.  I take nothing away from his being there, but I do hold against him his using untruthful tales to base his candidacy on. Most people tell "war stories" and  "fishing tales" and beer induced stretchings of stories and exploites......just most of us don't try to pass them off as truth after the hangover has worn off :roll:
That Sound You Hear In The Woods While Hunting  Is Deer Laughing