Single shot for Smallbore cowboy silhouette?

[csimmons]

I read a portion of the rules regarding smallbore cowboy silhouette on-line somewhere and cant find the site again.  My question is, I own a Winchester Model 1885 in 22LR that was made by Miroku.  I bought the gun for fun and basic plinking ( lot of money for a plinker) but I was wondering is this rifle legal in smallbore cowboy silhouette?  

The best I remember the rules made a comment about a tube fed magazine.

[nomad]

Not permitted.

3.1.3 (c) A. Any lever action, pump or semi-auto rimfire rifle with a tubular magazine.

Can't use the single-shot.

[K2]

Its a good thing too cause the single shots would run the tube feeds out of the game after awhile.  

Not permitted.

3.1.3 (c) A. Any lever action, pump or semi-auto rimfire rifle with a tubular magazine.

Can't use the single-shot.

[Doc RD]

And I always wondered what that little lever thingy was on my low wall 85.  It works my action just fine though :wink: .

I don't think that a single shot would not be allowed if it has the right type of action.  There's NO advantage to using one.  JMHO.

Later,
Doc RD

[nomad]

And your single shot complies with which part of the "with a tubular magazine" section of the rule?

[K2]

All is not lost Doc just use it for SB Rifle silhouette instead of cowboy silhouette.   Since you are in Alaska you might be interested in our new silhouette games too!  

And I always wondered what that little lever thingy was on my low wall 85.  It works my action just fine though :wink: .

I don't think that a single shot would not be allowed if it has the right type of action.  There's NO advantage to using one.  JMHO.

Later,
Doc RD

[Marty]

I agree with Doc RD that single shots like the low walls should be allowed. There really is no advantage. If you can't shoot, rifle type makes no difference. I always thought it strange that for a Cowboy shoot, semi autos are allowed. If anything bolt actions have a more accuracy advantage. Well, ther'es my two cents worth.  :wink:  I use my Marlin 1897CB for this type of shooting. At our club the rifles used are mostly pumps or lever guns.

Marty

[csimmons]

Well, I fully understand the need for basic rules and I can understand wanting create fair competition.   But, personally, I have only found one match on Sunday's in the Dallas/Fort Worth Area and it is for cowboy silhouette.  Every other match I can find in the area is on Saturday or during the week.  I typically work 9 to 10 hours per day during the week and on Saturday I have a list of honey do's and my children's soccer and baseball.  Sorry for the rant, got carried away.  

I guess the real question is Cowboy silhouette for period piece rifles which makes sense or for tube fed rifles which doesn't make since.  I know I wouldn't and I don't think most people would gain much from shooting the single shot Model 1885 rifle with iron sights from a free hand position.  Just an observation.

[K2]

One of the problems with silhouette in general is a limited amount of venues.  You might go to the cowboy match and ask if you can shoot non sanctioned entries with your single shot.  Other options are to just copy the shapes onto cardboard and shoot the game whenever you can find time.  There is a new silhouette group forming that will have paper postal matches for folks in your circumstances that want to shoot but for various reasons cannot attend a regular match.  However you get involved you will find it is a fun and challanging sport.  Good luck to you!

Well, I fully understand the need for basic rules and I can understand wanting create fair competition.   But, personally, I have only found one match on Sunday's in the Dallas/Fort Worth Area and it is for cowboy silhouette.  Every other match I can find in the area is on Saturday or during the week.  I typically work 9 to 10 hours per day during the week and on Saturday I have a list of honey do's and my children's soccer and baseball.  Sorry for the rant, got carried away.  

I guess the real question is Cowboy silhouette for period piece rifles which makes sense or for tube fed rifles which doesn't make since.  I know I wouldn't and I don't think most people would gain much from shooting the single shot Model 1885 rifle with iron sights from a free hand position.  Just an observation.

[nomad]

csimmons
There is smallbore and high power every second Sunday at Coolidge, near Corsicana. Also high power every third Sunday at Ft Wolters. And smallbore and air rifle at Winnsboro every fourth Sunday.
If you're interested, contact me. (Haven't we talked on the phone?)

[nomad]

Since the rules are specific about this, I thought that this would die a natural death. But it hasn't.

Question(s):
Where do you stop? (How about a BSA Martini? Ballard/Winchester schuetzen? Walnut Hill? They're all 'lever-actions'; and there are others out there.) Ballard-Schoyen schuetzens are available -- new -- right now in .22LR & centerfire calibers for about $3500.00. You think one wouldn't show up on the line? (Price won't prevent it -- look at the BPCR folks and their 'investment' record.)

Would you like to tell me again that a full-house target rifle like one of the above provides the high-roller competitor with no advantage over Joe lunch-bucket and his 9422?
Do YOU want to shoot a 39A against a set-trigger schuetzen?

Do any of you who support the single-shot want to provide a bullet-proof rule that would avoid that sort of thing?

HOW?

This game was set up to allow an 'inexpensive' rifle like a 39A Marlin or 9422 Winchester (or one of the equivalent centerfires) to be competitive.
Under the rules as they stand, that's exactly what's happening. (Anything's possible but I can't even imagine a manufacturer looking at the number of potential sales in this game and developing a super-accurate, target-grade, tube-fed lever/slide/semi. The sport, therefore, is sort of self-policing.)

As I see it there's not much room for 'gaming' the equipment right now. (Sights are pushing the rules but that's to be expected. Many/most of us are old farts who can't see anymore!) :-D

Let's try and keep this one for the basic shooters and avoid the equipment race.

[csimmons]

I truly do like the idea of the restrictions associated with the cowboy silhouette to provide an entry level shooting sport that prevents the equipment race.  

And I agree the issue is settled.  The rules plainly state the requirement for a tube fed magazine.

csimmons

[K2]

You hit the nail on the head Nomad.  Caution on the sights is needed or this will become the race starting gate.  

The need for some basic shooting sports is the reason that sporter air rifle is so popular.  BPCR has become a big $ game as you have noted.

Since the rules are specific about this, I thought that this would die a natural death. But it hasn't.

Question(s):
Where do you stop? (How about a BSA Martini? Ballard/Winchester schuetzen? Walnut Hill? They're all 'lever-actions'; and there are others out there.) Ballard-Schoyen schuetzens are available -- new -- right now in .22LR & centerfire calibers for about $3500.00. You think one wouldn't show up on the line? (Price won't prevent it -- look at the BPCR folks and their 'investment' record.)

Would you like to tell me again that a full-house target rifle like one of the above provides the high-roller competitor with no advantage over Joe lunch-bucket and his 9422?
Do YOU want to shoot a 39A against a set-trigger schuetzen?

Do any of you who support the single-shot want to provide a bullet-proof rule that would avoid that sort of thing?

HOW?

This game was set up to allow an 'inexpensive' rifle like a 39A Marlin or 9422 Winchester (or one of the equivalent centerfires) to be competitive.
Under the rules as they stand, that's exactly what's happening. (Anything's possible but I can't even imagine a manufacturer looking at the number of potential sales in this game and developing a super-accurate, target-grade, tube-fed lever/slide/semi. The sport, therefore, is sort of self-policing.)

As I see it there's not much room for 'gaming' the equipment right now. (Sights are pushing the rules but that's to be expected. Many/most of us are old farts who can't see anymore!) :-D

Let's try and keep this one for the basic shooters and avoid the equipment race.

[cslcAl]

The sights are being pushed already is right. I know the rule says you can add tang sights or receiver sights that were specificaly made for your particular gun. I have seen  receiver sights mounted on top mount Weaver bases to extend the sight radius beyond what the sight would give mounted in it's proper position. I don't think that is legal. Any opinions?
Al Foust

[AMB]

Nomad, you summed up my thoughts on this subject perfectly. Cowboy LEVER ACTION Silhouette, not Period Piece Anything Goes Unlimited Silhouette.  For those that think thats the way to go start a new game. Granted, letting Semi-Autos in .22 doesn't settle real well, but in reality Lever actions and a few pumps are what are on the line.  Lets keep it simple, and low cost. As cslcAl noted some have tried to bend the sight rule, at our club we told them they couldn't use them.  A real nice high quality tang is one thing, but an Olympic Redfield mounted on a Weaver Base is another and totally unacceptable.

[nomad]

Al,

We don't allow extended sight rails. There were a couple, initially, but the guys realized that they needed to be changed.
I don't remember any at Nats but I could have missed them.
THE rear sight down here is the Williams Foolproof TK (Target Knobs) mounted in the 'normal' rear-of-the-action position on the 3/8 rail.
The 17A is the most popular 'retrofit' front.

AMB,

Thanks for the support. I also have a problem with the semis even though they've been around for about a hundred years and probably fit the role. (Winchester '03?) The Lone Ranger never carried one!

[K2]

Bravo AMB!

That is exactly the way to handle those who want to always push the rules, simply tell them no, and offer the hunter class to them as an option.  When more match directors take this course of action the game improves everywhere.  Thanks for using common sense and some backbone!

Nomad, you summed up my thoughts on this subject perfectly. Cowboy LEVER ACTION Silhouette, not Period Piece Anything Goes Unlimited Silhouette.  For those that think thats the way to go start a new game. Granted, letting Semi-Autos in .22 doesn't settle real well, but in reality Lever actions and a few pumps are what are on the line.  Lets keep it simple, and low cost. As cslcAl noted some have tried to bend the sight rule, at our club we told them they couldn't use them.  A real nice high quality tang is one thing, but an Olympic Redfield mounted on a Weaver Base is another and totally unacceptable.

[jimny]

I need more info. on mounting a Williams FP/TK on my Marlin 39. In your post above you said most are mounted on the 3/8 rail. My rifle is drilled & tapped on the top for the rail and on the side which I assumed was for a Williams or Lyman receiver sight. Am I looking at something wrong? I need advice on which way to go, since I want to order a sight and base if needed. If you know part # and the best source it would also help and might save me some fumbling. Thanks in advance for your help. The sight on the rifle now just doesn't work with my eyes.
Jim

[nomad]

The Williams FoolProof AG(high) or GR(low) TK (the 'T'arget 'K'nob version) is designed as a 'universal' rear sight to clamp onto 3/8" rails on any gun so cut. (As everyone seems to be interpreting the rule, that makes that sight 'made for the rifle'...no matter what rifle you have. )
You can see the description by going to the Williams website and downloading the catalog. It's on P 11 -- right column.
http://www.williamsgunsight.com/PDF/2004catalog.pdf

There are other FPs -- and Redfields, Lymans, etc -- that screw into the side holes and are designated for a specific model gun (or models).

You could equally well use the FP 39 TK screwed into the side holes.

As I understand it, Brownells always seems to have the slip-on model in stock with the target knobs but the side-mount screw-on model with the knobs is less frequently available.

So I'm seeing a lot of slip-ons and no screw-ons. It's not really significant as long as you get the knobs.

As far as I'm concerned, I'd rather have the Lyman with target knobs since IMO the Lyman version is marked better and more 'readable' but, last I spoke with Lyman, they were only offering the model for the Winchester 86 http://www.lymanproducts.com/lymanproducts/sights.htm  set up that way. I did see at least one rifle -- that was NOT an 86 Winchester -- with that target-knob sight on it at nationals. It had passed tech and was not protested...

AFAIK the screw pattern and spacing on all flat-sided levers by all the makers -- Winchester, Marlin, whatever -- are the same and the differences between the sights actually 'designed' for those models are very minor. IOW, I'd guess that a Lyman 66WB will screw right onto a lot of rifles that it is NOT marked as being made for...

This is another rule that tries to cover a lot of ground and leaves a chunk of wiggle room. I just wonder how much importance we need assign to whether the sight is actually 'made for the rifle'?
As long as full-house Warners with Gehmann diopters don't start appearing on 'cowboy' guns, methinks it ain't all that big a deal.