Author Topic: Ballistics (Read 909 times)

IntrepidWizard · « **on:** August 26, 2004, 10:14:00 AM »

How about a spot for Ballistics only for all known calibers?

ricciardelli · « **Reply #1 on:** August 26, 2004, 10:28:29 AM »

. <----a spot for all known calibers

:grin:

IntrepidWizard · « **Reply #2 on:** August 26, 2004, 10:31:22 AM »

thanks

Reed1911 · « **Reply #3 on:** August 27, 2004, 01:26:59 AM »

:-D :grin:

.
Oh that was too funny!
Wizard,

What are you wanting to know? Ballistics is a very complicated study and can quickly go from discussion of SD's to WAY too technical in a heartbeat.

Graybeard · « **Reply #4 on:** August 27, 2004, 05:57:49 AM »

I like it Steve. :lol: I like it. :lol: When did you develop a sense of humor? :eek: Like you I'm kinda unsure what it is he is wanting or looking for. :roll:

ricciardelli · « **Reply #5 on:** August 27, 2004, 07:47:56 AM »

I've always had a sense of humor...it's just that some people don't appreciate it...
:-D

IntrepidWizard · « **Reply #6 on:** August 27, 2004, 07:59:05 AM »

Spot set me up-----place should have been used.A place to go to get ballistics on any caliber is needed--ex 56 50?

Donna · « **Reply #7 on:** August 27, 2004, 08:48:09 AM »

And I thought I have troubles expressing my thoughts

Donna

ricciardelli · « **Reply #8 on:** August 27, 2004, 01:11:36 PM »

Quote from: IntrepidWizard

Spot set me up-----place should have been used.A place to go to get ballistics on any caliber is needed--ex 56 50?

What you are asking for is a technical impossibility!

How a bullet performs is NOT a fixed parameter. It depends on the velocity (not "published" but "actual"), and the velocity depends on on the firearm, and the firearm depends on the namufacturer, and the manufacturer depends on what day of the week it is, or even what hour of the day!

It also depends on the weather conditions (barometer readings, temperature, humidity, and wind).

The next variable is the lot number of the powder, primer, bullet and brass. They will all make a difference.

The greatest confusion comes into play when you take into consideration the shooting ability of the guy pulling the trigger (and how much coffee, sugar or sex he has had prior to shooting).

That is why I do not list velocities or pressures on my reloading data pages. What I get in one of my guns has no fixed relationship as to what you should expect from your gun. Hell, I have three .22-250 varmint rifles, with consecutive serial numbers ... and THEY don't even like the same loads.

Reed1911 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 27, 2004, 01:21:45 PM »

See what I mean. Ballistics covers such a broad range of parameters that it's hard to know what you are asking for.

IntrepidWizard · « **Reply #10 on:** August 27, 2004, 01:34:16 PM »

Many years ago when dirt was being formed there were "Ballistic Bibles",for buying and reloading.Today they don't seem to exist.Is it too much to have a reference source for all known rounds?

Reed1911 · « **Reply #11 on:** August 27, 2004, 01:56:53 PM »

You are killing me, what information do you want to know?
Are you looking just for the basic B.C.'s, drop, etc...? That is contained in most re-loading books. There is no one source for all known rounds. There are several very good sources that list many of the more popular, or most popular wildcats (at the time), old and obsolete, etc...
Please don't be offended, I'll give you or at least point you in the direction of the information you seek. But to cover "Ballistics" entirely you'll need to get a master's of science or PhD in Ballistics.

IntrepidWizard · « **Reply #12 on:** August 27, 2004, 02:08:38 PM »

1911,you are stretching to far,all calibers are listed---some where and at one time they were availible,and I am not killing you,headache---yes.

Reed1911 · « **Reply #13 on:** August 27, 2004, 02:19:29 PM »

Wizard,

I have no less than 10 books on cartridge data and dimensions, they all don't cover all the cartridges. At one time, yes there were books that could cover all the cartridges of that time, but so many have been developed (and still ongoing) that it would not be practical to list them all. Now for just the factory, some propritey, some old/obsolete, and some wildcat "Cartridges of the world" has a lot. It's mostly just data on the cartridge, and very little on any ballistic data.

Now from this I might be confused, or you might be. Are you looking for cartridge data (i.e. speed, size, useful purpose) or are you looking for what happens from the time the bullet leaves the muzzle to when it strikes something?

IntrepidWizard · « **Reply #14 on:** August 27, 2004, 02:25:30 PM »

Both,and the have to exist somewhere.

Reed1911 · « **Reply #15 on:** August 27, 2004, 02:39:02 PM »

Okay,

Good luck in your search.

Graybeard · « **Reply #16 on:** August 27, 2004, 05:40:40 PM »

IW, I think you are trying to be difficult. Maybe not. Maybe you've just got it so ingrained into your head that "once long long ago in a land far far away" such existed.

But to be honest, it never did. Never will. Let me explain.

Many moons ago when reloading was just getting a good start and wild catting developed there really weren't a lot of cases to work with and unless you made your own and your own dies you didn't do much. When Ackley, Keith and their ilk were hard at it possibly there were no more than 100-200 different cartridges. Maybe more, I have no clue what a good number is. But even then the compilations were far far from complete.

Now there are quite literally tens of thousands of different cartridges. Some perhaps NO ONE even knows about but the inventor.

Just go to the VVCG web site and if they still have that list of cartridges they chamber for you'll find hundreds. Many of which you most likely never heard of and have no clue even what the parent case is. For sure I don't. The most complete listing of wildcats I know of is the one RCBS maintains. They are the primary maker of custom dies when some new cartridge is thought up and the maker needs dies. But by no means are they the ONLY one in the business and if someone goes to another or a local source or does it themselves then RCBS will never know of it.

What you seek is as Steve says a technical impossibility. Even if someone devoted their entire life to the persuit of that goal they'd fall short.

Now exterior ballistics is the science of what happens from the time the bullet leaves the muzzle until it impacts target. There is a LOT of data on that. But it is an art as much as a science. Why? Because bullets change BC along the way in flight. Model are fine but real world shooting proves them all wrong. The BCs given my manufacturers might have been what they came up with when they tested them on a given day at their location. But if I run the test on a different day at a different location I'd get a different result even if it were some how possible to shoot that exact same bullet they used. AND no two bullets are EXACTLY alike anymore than two snowflakes are. So even in a box of 100 you could get 100 different results if every thing else was exactly the same and that too is impossible.

So if you have a specific question to ask. If you want the ballistics of some particular load or bullet ask. Folks will try to help. But asking for something that doesn't exist, never has existed and never will exist is an exercise in futility and makes folks think you're not being serious but are trying to hassle us.

Just accept that what you seek doesn't exisit.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 27, 2004, 06:30:30 PM »

Quote from: IntrepidWizard

Both,and the have to exist somewhere.

Try looking for a soft backed Shooter Bible...Borders sells them...so do most Walmarts in the sporting goods area usually on the end racks with the magazines.....they have the ballistics for most of the factory ammo in there...

One of the last really good ones I've got is from Readers Digest of all places...I've got it out on loan now...but I do believe the date was early 70's on publication...covered all factory produced ammo including the British Nito stuff that was being made then and Norma's ammo too and gave ballistic data for all factory ammo produced,and some obsolete ammo too...also covered all of the rimfires and such American and imported...had lots of info in it...about 600 pages if I remember correctly and had all of the current factory produced long gun,pistols,and rifles and their prices.....had lots of NRA match info-rules-sights-targets and such...and a-lot better than any of the Shooters Bibles that are being produced now...

Hope that helps...

Mac

IntrepidWizard · « **Reply #18 on:** August 28, 2004, 03:40:28 AM »

Thank you Mac,I knew it existed and I assumed it would be updated--however a search still does not find it.

Wlscott · « **Reply #19 on:** August 28, 2004, 04:51:36 AM »

Quote

How a bullet performs is NOT a fixed parameter. It depends on the velocity (not "published" but "actual"), and the velocity depends on on the firearm, and the firearm depends on the namufacturer, and the manufacturer depends on what day of the week it is, or even what hour of the day!

It also depends on the weather conditions (barometer readings, temperature, humidity, and wind).

The next variable is the lot number of the powder, primer, bullet and brass. They will all make a difference.

Steve, you forgot wing of bat, and tail of newt.

ricciardelli · « **Reply #20 on:** August 28, 2004, 05:18:57 AM »

See what I mean? Another two factors involved!

Of course there is always the eye of a frog and a hair of the dog that bit you...

Mac11700 · « **Reply #21 on:** August 28, 2004, 06:14:19 AM »

I did forget to mention 1 in paticular you might like...I'm sure it doesn't have every new or old cartridge in it...but it does have over 1500...and a-lot of the new ones too...it would be ....Cartridges of the World...10th edition...by Frank C. Barnes...it's pretty good...it doesn't contain any ballistic tables...but it does give you all the dimensional data along with velocity(muzzel) and energy figures.....then one could cross that with a ballistic program to get the range information...

Mac

ricciardelli · « **Reply #22 on:** August 28, 2004, 06:43:53 AM »

And if you look at the small print, you will find that much of the data for the past couple of issues has been generated using a computer program and not actual firing tests, or is data supplied by the manufacturers of "factory ammo". (And we all know about the validity of those sources.)

jhalcott · « **Reply #23 on:** August 28, 2004, 07:07:30 AM »

this discussion reminds me of one I had with a friend about 2 guns I own. Both made by a gunsmith I worked for years ago.One is chambered for a cut down , fire formed 378-460 weatherby necked to 7mm. He could NOT find it in a 40$ book,so it does not exist! Not every wildcatter copy wrote his creations.Man, I've got guns that reloading data is so old the paper is yellow.New cartridges are coming out every year and companies are dropping them just as fast.It's kinda like doing the laundry! think you're done then remember the clothes you have on.

IntrepidWizard · « **Reply #24 on:** August 28, 2004, 07:11:14 AM »

I still can't find a site for "Standard " Ballistics.

ricciardelli · « **Reply #25 on:** August 28, 2004, 07:32:52 AM »

Quote from: IntrepidWizard

I still can't find a site for "Standard " Ballistics.

Well, I would say you have two choices...

Buy every "ballistic" book on the market and download all the data you can find on the internet.

Your second choice is to start your own site and post all that data...in one "spot"...

Oh, and you still haven't told us what you mean by "ballistics"...
:roll:

IntrepidWizard · « **Reply #26 on:** August 28, 2004, 07:38:29 AM »

ricci babe,there exists a book or more on bullets and ballistics and has so for close to 100 years,it is no Nuclear science it is published data from different manufaturers.

ricciardelli · « **Reply #27 on:** August 28, 2004, 07:59:22 AM »

First of all, my name is not "ricci", it is Ricciardelli (or Steve).

Secondly, I am not a "babe".

Thirdly, I can make no sense out of your message! How the hell can there be a book that is 100 years old that has all the ballistic data for all cartridges provided by ammunition manufacturers?

I have reloading data for around 3500 different cartridge/bullet combinations on my limited pages, and it is nowhere near complete, and takes around 3 hours per day to try and keep updated! And this data is the result of around 50 years of reloading and shooting!

And for your information, there is not much difference between "nuclear science" and internal and external ballistics. They both must abide by the laws of physics...

Reed1911 · « **Reply #28 on:** August 28, 2004, 11:14:38 AM »

"Dear God please lock this post before the ripping begins..."