Author Topic: Smokeless BlowUp? (Read 2252 times)

Longcruise · « **on:** August 29, 2004, 08:49:22 PM »

Saw something on another forum about Toby Knight having a savage smokeless ml blow up. :shock: Anybody know anything about it

sabotloader · « **Reply #1 on:** August 30, 2004, 04:18:07 AM »

Read the article here

http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/

Under the DANGER heading

There has been a ton of speculation - I guess i am waiting for the smoke to clear, as to what really caused the blow-up...

Longcruise · « **Reply #2 on:** August 30, 2004, 04:38:00 AM »

Quote

I guess i am waiting for the smoke to clear, as to what really caused the blow-up...

I'm not satisfied either. Given the "proof" loads that the gun had been put through it kinda makes one wonder what the whole story is. Double charge? Triple charge? Huge variations in manufacturing controls or steel quality?

Also makes me wonder how Knight escaped injury in a blow-up of that magnitude.

I've witnessed only one blow up that involved an apparent double charge under a cast bullet in a 30-06. Didn't blow nearly as bad as the pics of the savage, but the shooter of the '06 had multiple splinters in his face and right hand from the stock splintering. There was no scope on it which probably saved at least one eye :eek:

Anyway, inquiring minds want to know. :shock:

Arrroman · « **Reply #3 on:** August 30, 2004, 10:20:10 AM »

I have occasionally had the concave part of the breechplug get so packed with powder that the primer fired through the center leaving 10-20grained of hardpacked powder filling the breechplug flush but not igniting. Imagine touching of 60-70 grains of smokeless in something that is designed for 50grains maximum charge.

Thats why we mack our ramrods. If you think something isn't quite right it probably isn't.

Good luck hunting!
Don't forget to vote!

Dr. A · « **Reply #4 on:** August 30, 2004, 12:19:00 PM »

Does anyone have any idea of the pressures the recommended loads are forming? I also wondered how Lil Gun shaped up as far as its pressure. I read about this elsewhere and had just come to the conclusion I was totally happy with a 2100fps load out of the 5744 and a 250gr. bullet. Going above that seemed like more than was needed. The barrel heated up quite a bit faster as well. Thanks for any help.

Omega · « **Reply #5 on:** August 30, 2004, 03:28:29 PM »

Quote

how Knight

It's Bridges, Toby Bridges, hate to see you make a horses rear end out of yourself by, say, going off half cocked or without the most basic facts in front of you. :shock: :shock:

JPSaxMan · « **Reply #6 on:** August 30, 2004, 04:09:01 PM »

I think I'm gonna try to get ahold of Savage and rub that right in their face. I don't know about the rest of you, but that's a crock. I'd be sueing them left and right if that happened. All of us know not to use smokeless powder in a muzzleloader (even tho Savage guarantees smokeless is fine). And that's the ironic part...even if the gun was tested to high pressures...apparently one test failed...and that's all it takes to take out a life. And isn't that what really matters?

AndyHass · « **Reply #7 on:** August 30, 2004, 04:27:07 PM »

I think it premature just to say "I told you so" just because it was smokeless. Smokeless in that gun is not anything like putting it down an Encore.
1) The gun is designed differently and tested to MUCH higher pressures
2) The gun that blew up had 7500 rounds through it....how many can say they've fired that many shots out of ANY single ML gun???
3) It seems it might be due to a flaw in the breech plug design. Wakeman insinuates and name-calls, but the fact remains. The breech plug allows gasses back into the weakest area of the barrel, which is not according to design. A simple re-design of the plug might fix this.
People have but thousands of shots through the Savage with only one explosion. CVA blew many more Apollos than this and many on this board still buy them!
The mind-boggling thing has been the company's refusal to release a decent public statement about this and shove it under the rug.

JPSaxMan · « **Reply #8 on:** August 30, 2004, 04:34:17 PM »

Mr. Hass, where did you get the 7,500 figure from? I'd like to kno...b/c the web page listed above didn't mention how many rounds he'd had through the gun. It just said he put several shots through it with 48 grains then put 49 grains through and then the barrel exploded along w/the rest of the gun. Either way, it still doesn't look good for Savage and I've never seen a formal apology or note of consolation from Savage and/or a Savage executive about the incident. I wasn't going to buy a Savage muzzleloader anyway, but now I'M DEFINETLY NOT. I mean, there were no incidents of regular blackpowder, but still, why own a firearm that can do that w/ smokeless powder at any time?

DEPUTY · « **Reply #9 on:** August 30, 2004, 06:56:45 PM »

i belive that the 7500 round number came direct from toby, Omega nice to see yah around, been busy i bet!
2100fps load out of the 5744 and a 250gr. bullet. Going above that seemed like more than was needed. The barrel heated up quite a bit faster as well. Thanks for any help.thats all you were getting! jeeshh!

4 pellets of t7 and a 300sst i got 2350fps out of my gun.

wait till you guys see the africa zebra kill on film this year for our tv show. just shy of 300yds and had busted both shoulders and bullet was just on the skin of the oposite side of the animal dropped it in its tracks

Dr. A · « **Reply #10 on:** August 31, 2004, 02:57:30 AM »

With Lil Gun, the gun achieved over 2400fps with a 300gr. Hornady. Not needed where I sit in a tree and have 50 yard shots! Before you flame, you should know the use of the load. I was interested in the pressures. I'm not particularly scared the gun is going to blow.

Flyrod444 · « **Reply #11 on:** August 31, 2004, 03:25:14 AM »

I found a article here that makes a lot of sense. http://www.angelfire.com/mech/wolfhound/
It really doesn't matter which side you are on about this incident, there is one fact that remains true, this savage blew up!! There has to be a reason that it blew!! I think that the article at this site written by the person who was there is well thought out and very logical. It is wise to learn from our mistakes in life. I hope all parties involved learn from this mishap. The last thing we need is someone being hurt by another mishap such as this and a gun manufacture being taking to court in our crazy anti gun world that we live in. I think that a court case would end up costing Savage much more than correcting the problem if it exist.
Jack

DEPUTY · « **Reply #12 on:** August 31, 2004, 06:04:09 AM »

no flaming, and my gun dosent blow up, cause i dont shoot smokless! but then again i dont have too cause with 5 pellets it hits 2400fps with the 300 grain sst

Longcruise · « **Reply #13 on:** August 31, 2004, 06:26:37 PM »

Quote

It's Bridges, Toby Bridges, hate to see you make a horses rear end out of yourself by, say, going off half cocked or without the most basic facts in front of you.

Yeah, for years I've made that name mix-up over and over. OTOH you apparently knew who I was talking about so at least the communication was successful.

OTOH your comments about going off half cocked, making a horses rear end of myself and alluding to a lack of facts don't make any sense at all. My posts here were meant to encourage discussion on the topic in the hopes of bringing out more facts on it. So far that end has been met with several contributers providing insights and links to more info. You on the other hand have behaved more like a Savage stock holder

JPSaxMan · « **Reply #14 on:** September 01, 2004, 03:49:50 AM »

Oh well, we all can't be perfect, right? :-D

Longcruise · « **Reply #15 on:** September 01, 2004, 05:55:56 AM »

Quote

Oh well, we all can't be perfect, right?

No, but I'll be happy to assist all those who aspire to be! :grin:

aimless · « **Reply #16 on:** September 02, 2004, 03:04:16 PM »

Wow, good article :shock:

supermag 445 · « **Reply #17 on:** September 03, 2004, 07:48:06 PM »

Well the way I feel about this whole thing is that if you push any rifle too hard it will blow. I am sure someone is going to find the reason for this, if not already,but if you push things too far this is just the kind of thing that can happen with anything.

Well so show how this has affected me Just today I put an order for the savage 10ML-II SS camo 50 cal. :-D :-D I am very excited about this. I don't plan on using smokeless at all due to NJ not allowing smokeless powder so it will be pellets of 777. This is my first blackpowder for me so I am all kinds of stoked.

Brian

panman · « **Reply #18 on:** September 04, 2004, 04:32:52 PM »

If everything wasnt packed down tight, OR, the projectile moved[not a tight enough fit].bad things happen.pan.

DannoBoone · « **Reply #19 on:** September 04, 2004, 05:12:47 PM »

Dr. A -- You were well over 50,000psi with that load (pm me, and I'll put
you in touch with one who can give ya more info on this).

Longcruise:
Toby Bridges used to work for Knight -- perhaps that's where the
confusion came in.

Personally, I believe Savage has found the main culprit for the barrel
failure and silently remedied the situation. The barrel did have thousands
of shots through it and metal fatigue around the snout of the breech plug
could have also been a main contributing factor.

But what was remedied is this: they took the 3-hole vent liner off the
market -- why? It was designed to ignite the harder ignitable powders
like 4227, which is a slower burning powder, and often will not ignite
with lighter bullets than the 250gr bullets. Toby was experimenting with
a fast, double-based powder (with twice the nitro than most), 5744. Did
this "fast-burn" like it should, or was it given too much ignition (that last
grain from 48gr to 49gr could have been that ol' straw which broke the
camel's back) which actually detonated the whole charge? Savage isn't
talking, but the 3-holer was taken off the market about as fast as it was
introduced.

Many of us have experienced extremely flattened primers by using the
3-hole liner with the faster burning powders, while the same charge and
bullet with the single hole liner is not flattened at all. This indicated much
more pressure with the 3-hole liner, even with recently cleaned breech
plugs.

Wakeman claimed that Savage did pressure tests using both liners on
identical loads and there was no appreciable difference in pressure. I
challenged him to produce the documentation. He replied that neither
Savage or any other mfgr that he knows of releases such documentation.
In other words, just another one of his factually baseless lines.

supermag 445 · « **Reply #20 on:** September 04, 2004, 08:50:18 PM »

So Danno since I just ordered my new savage 10 ml-II will it come with a 3 vent holer or what?
:?
Brian

DannoBoone · « **Reply #21 on:** September 05, 2004, 05:16:07 AM »

Quote from: supermag 445

So Danno since I just ordered my new savage 10 ml-II will it come with a 3 vent holer or what?
:?
Brian

That's really hard to say. It depends when your ML was made. One of the
first things you should do either way, is take the plug out for applying
anti-seize grease (I use high temp bearing grease which has never let
me down) on the threads of BOTH the plug and the liner. If it turns out
to be the 3-hole liner, if it were me, I'd shoot nothing but the slower
burning powders like IMR 4227, VV-N120, VV-N130. You can get the
single-hole liners from Savage's customer service, I believe Mid-South,
and Wakeman. He's out right now, but says he should have more in
within a week. Don't give me for a reference, though -- he'd probably
rather swallow them than sell me any.

supermag 445 · « **Reply #22 on:** September 05, 2004, 02:09:14 PM »

Danno, I plan on only shooting T7 FFFG for now do to NJ not allowing smokeless while hunting in NJ. So should it be changed to a 1 vent holer or will 3 be ok? I want the best so I could shoot whatever I want.

I am very new to muzzleloaders and don't know what a vent holer is and breech plug is etc. I will learn but I am very new and don't really know the lingo right now.

Thanks Brian

Longcruise · « **Reply #23 on:** September 06, 2004, 11:27:29 AM »

Quote

Toby Bridges used to work for Knight -- perhaps that's where the
confusion came in

That's exactly where it came in. A local BP shop had him in town doing demos on in-line shooting when they were just beginning to be promoted. The gun shop owner was also a member of my gun club and he took Bridges and some interested customers to the range to shoot. I happended to be there at the range and observed and met him briefly. Seemed like an alright guy to me. He sold a lot of guys on the concept of inline ml guns that day. Seems like ever since then I've had that name confusion going on.

Here is what someone had to say on another list about 5744 powder. Not an answer to jump on but maybe worth considering:

Quote

I have been using AA 5744 and AA3100 for a year and found them both very
accurate with cast bullets, but they tend to "lump up", so I would be very
careful in using them in progressive presses.

I use Lyman Ideal #55 measure and I weigh each charge. AA3100 forms into
large lumps that completely stop the powder flow and have to be "stirred" to
break them up. AA5744 seems to "bridge" in the funnel, resulting in part
charge being dropped and the "retained" part being dropped with the
following charge - very dangerous indeed.

DannoBoone · « **Reply #24 on:** September 06, 2004, 04:26:09 PM »

Quote from: supermag 445

Danno, I plan on only shooting T7 FFFG for now do to NJ not allowing smokeless while hunting in NJ. So should it be changed to a 1 vent holer or will 3 be ok? I want the best so I could shoot whatever I want.

I am very new to muzzleloaders and don't know what a vent holer is and breech plug is etc. I will learn but I am very new and don't really know the lingo right now.

Thanks Brian

Hopefully, you will get a single-hole vent liner. That's all any BP or
substitute needs.

Make sure you thoroughly read the manual. It will explain what the vent
liner is all about. It is nothing more than a hardened #10 flat-head screw
with a hole down through the length of it, and is screwed into the end of
the breech plug, which is screwed into the back end of the barrel.

supermag 445 · « **Reply #25 on:** September 06, 2004, 08:05:25 PM »

danno thanks for the info. I plan on reading as much as I can on modern inline front stuffers.

Brian

tucoblue · « **Reply #26 on:** September 07, 2004, 02:41:50 AM »

Supermag 445, a friend of mine had the Savage and sold it because he called Trenton about the legality of the Savage and was told the rifle was not legal in NJ. Possibly he was misinformed but you better check it out.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #27 on:** September 07, 2004, 11:14:39 AM »

Lets stay on track and get away from personal attacks. It will not be tolerated here!

Thanks
Guys

SURVEYOR · « **Reply #28 on:** September 07, 2004, 12:04:30 PM »

Quote from: Redhawk1

Lets stay on track and get away from personal attacks. It will not be tolerated here!

Thanks
Guys

Thanks Redhawk!

Jules J.

DannoBoone · « **Reply #29 on:** September 07, 2004, 03:53:49 PM »

Quote from: tucoblue

Supermag 445, a friend of mine had the Savage and sold it because he called Trenton about the legality of the Savage and was told the rifle was not legal in NJ. Possibly he was misinformed but you better check it out.

According to my friends who use it for hunting in NJ, it is legal if a BP
substitute is used -- no smokeless.

The info ya get might depend on WHO in Trenton ya might get in touch
with -- some of those fools were trying to make anything 50 caliber
illegal, comparing ML's to the .50 BMG!!