Author Topic: how is penn. new antler restrictions doing  (Read 678 times)

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Offline running&gunning

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how is penn. new antler restrictions doing
« on: August 30, 2004, 02:54:55 AM »
Just wondering how the hunting is in Penn. now with the antler restrictions.   It has been in effect for a couple of years now.  Is the quality of bucks getting better?  I am planning on hunting in Penn. for opening day of rifle seasons.  I have never hunted in Penn. before.  I'm gonna just find some state land and hope for the best.  Any info on large tracts of state land would be appreciated.  Also are their many farmers willing to lease property to hunters or are most of the farm already leased.

Offline cam69conv

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how is penn. new antler restrictions doing
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2004, 04:20:12 AM »
Well I personaly dont like the game lands around here simply because of the idiots..Some of the problems we have on them are people walking the trail (non hunters) and sking and stuff like that...Then come the "hunters" that dont even come into the woods till 7:30 or 8:00 am and expect to get in thier stands and get anything... Im not sure about the lease lands around here as I have 220 beautiful acres that I have permission to hunt with one other person..Been hunting it for 7 years now and I have been limiting the bucks to 6 point or more the whole time...I have seen a few deer off of our property and they do seem to be gettin bigger in the racks..I have a few whoppers on our place and 2 GRANDDADDY's that will probably die of old age before I get a shot onnum :)  Them buggers are smart...Know what Im carryin that day..be it a bow...Or if Ive got the .444 they are out at 250 and If Ive got the 7mm or the 30.06 I dont even seeum :) But thats Just fine..Let them fellers breedum up Make for good genetics..Anyway...try this site  www.huntingpa.com You may be able to get some good info there Good luck to ya and If ya havnt found a good place to hunt you are welcome to come out to our spot.. But be warned...them bucks are smarter than average so its not all gravy...If you have a doe tag we have WAY to many does on the property and wouldnt mind if ya drop one at ALL... my email is cam69conv2002@yahoo.com buzz me up if ya wanna
You want a divorce if I go hunting today??? Well sorry ta see ya go...Was nice knowin ya..Dont let tha door hit ya where tha good lord split ya :D

Offline JPSaxMan

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how is penn. new antler restrictions doing
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2004, 11:22:53 AM »
I have to agree w/ cam on the fact that the gamelands do stink. Heck, one time a friend and I went small game hunting and as we were walking from the truck, another one pulled up. The sucker actually tried to talk us into another hunting location saying the one he recommended was "better". We didn't listen to him and stood our ground. He eventually left. Even tho we only saw a rabbit, we still were able to hunt. But I do think the antler restrictions are working. Or so at least according to the Summary's "Hunting and Trapping Annual"
JP

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Offline cam69conv

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how is penn. new antler restrictions doing
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2004, 11:38:28 AM »
Fish Ya fergot 33 days til ARCHERY Grrrrrrrr dont be leavin out us poor old archers now
You want a divorce if I go hunting today??? Well sorry ta see ya go...Was nice knowin ya..Dont let tha door hit ya where tha good lord split ya :D

Offline JPSaxMan

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how is penn. new antler restrictions doing
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2004, 11:42:06 AM »
Actually, to brighten your spirits I think it's now 32...but I'm not an archer, but my friend, The#1Hunter is. And that's the only way I know how!! I'm getting into archery next year tho. A Mathews FX and some arrows and other stuff and I'll be ready to rock and roll for the late season. Really don't have the money right now....hopefully after November  :(
JP

Attorney: Now doctor, isn't it true that when a person dies in
his sleep, he doesn't know about it until the next morning?

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Offline THE#1hunter

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how is penn. new antler restrictions doing
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2004, 01:08:49 PM »
Yep 33 more days  :twisted: , there is alot more "bigger bucks" running around since the restrictions, it should be interesting to see how it is in 3-4 years or so..
Good Luck, Be Safe, and God Bless  :D

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Offline huntsman

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how is penn. new antler restrictions doing
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2004, 08:37:15 AM »
I don't hunt PA, but the antler-restriction craze is also beginning to take hold down here in TX on public managed lands. As someone with some training in wildlife management, I can attest that the supposed "experts" who are advocating this kind of management are not telling the whole story, are not responsible in their research planning, or else they are very poorly-trained.

My hypothesis is that for purposes of producing better quality bucks on heavily-hunted lands, antler restrictions (as they currently exist) are better than no restrictions at all. But that is where the benefit ends. In the short term, antler restrictions protect a majority of the yearling bucks in a population. In populations that are over-hunted for yearling bucks (i.e. most public situations), there is an almost immediate noticeable improvement in buck age class, and thus the prime factor in producing better antlers. So, on public range where it was once rare to see 2.5 and older deer, hunters will start seeing them much more often after even one year of antler restrictions. These older deer will have more antler mass and more body size, so hunters will generally be happy to see this change.

The problem with antler restrictions will not show up until they have been in place for several breeding generations. After the initial benefit of age structure has reached its peak, the negative factor of genetics will begin to figure much more seriously into the equation. Now hunters are seeing more older deer, but the older deer will begin to decline in terms of true trophy potential. More older deer will begin to be seen that do not meet the antler restrictions. This is due to heavy reverse selective pressure (animals being removed from the gene pool before they can do much breeding) being placed on the youngest trophy-potential animals, and bucks with the poorest genes in terms of antler potential in all age categories are being positively selected (allowed to stay in the gene pool).

In more common language, trophy-potential yearling bucks most often grow antlers that meet or exceed the antler restriction in their first year of life. Thus they can, and most likely will, be removed from the population before or during their very first breeding season. If they do manage to escape the first year, they will almost surely be harvested their second year, when their trophy potential begins to blossom.

On the other hand, a vast majority of bucks with poor trophy potential will not meet the antler restriction during their first, second, or even third year of life, and will be left to do most of the breeding after the trophy-potential bucks are harvested. Indeed, the worst of these may NEVER grow antlers that meet the restriction, and thus will be allowed to remain in the breeding pool (in fact, attain dominant status) for the whole of their natural lives. You can easily see where the deer population antler gene pool is headed. Right into the toilet, so to speak.

Any simple model of genetic population selection pressure will reveal this flaw in the antler-restriction scenario. Thus, it surprises me that so many supposed wildlife experts are either not doing their homework, or are just giving the hunters a "quick fix" at the expense of the long-term antler quality of a deer population.

My warning is this: BEWARE OF ANTLER RESTRICTIONS, they are not the wonderful fix they are made out to be, or may even seem to be during the first few years of implementation.

There is no "quick fix" to improving antler quality. Millions of acres of prime deer habitat is closely managed with much better tools than just the antler restriction model, and still have made only incremental progress towards better antlers. Improving antler quality is a complex management task, but it can be successful when the basics of sound population dynamics, genetic modeling, close harvest control, and habitat quality are applied with common sense using consistent practices.

Unfortunately, many of the finer nuances of utilizing these techniques are not, and probably never will be, available in an open public hunting situation. It is extremely difficult to fix exact harvest quotas by sex and age on open public range. It is even more difficult to legislate the type of harvest criteria required to achieve positive selective pressure on trophy-class bucks. Due to these factors, the only way to truly achieve trophy-class management of whitetail deer on openly-hunted public land is through changing the psychology of every public hunter. That is a monumental, if not impossible, task.
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Offline Graybeard

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how is penn. new antler restrictions doing
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2004, 12:28:57 PM »
Here are photos of four of the five bucks a friend of mine who lives in PA saw on his farm one day earlier in August of this year.









And here are some of the does he saw that same afternoon. Yeah, yeah, so there's a couple bucks in the image also. Picky. Picky.



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Offline Steelbanger

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how is penn. new antler restrictions doing
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2004, 02:10:24 PM »
I can live with antler restrictions but here in PA it's at the expense of the doe population. We are encouraged to kill adult doe, most of which are bearing twin fawns for the next generation. Oh, we'll have nicer bucks but as we decimate the herd we will eventually see fewer and fewer deer. Our guru of deer, Gary Alt, has been brainwashing the troops about trophy deer but failing to tell that the ultimate goal is a much smaller deer herd. Most hunters seem to be in disagreement with Mr. Alt but whenever the cameras roll, everybody loves him.

I have never been on camera.[/list]
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Offline cam69conv

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how is penn. new antler restrictions doing
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2004, 10:59:31 AM »
Howdy Steel, In some ways I agree with you and others I dont. Our doe population is truely WAY out of proportion (think I spelled that right). On last average we had a 76 to 1 buck to doe ratio.. Basic genetics DEMANDS that this be brought under control.. On my farm which is 220 acres I have counted all together 78 deer this year...21 are bucks and I have been trying to manage this for the last 7 years... I limit the bucks to 6 point or better and try to only kill 4 yo or older.. and take as many does as we have tags for...The MAIN problem we have is 90% of my does drop twins or trips so keeping this contained is a problem..That and only 2 or 3 people have permission to hunt it because in the past the owners had severe problems with (for lack of a better word ) assholes.. Trashing the place, shooting at anything that moved and stuff like that...I have a few VERY nice bucks and the management that I have been doing is starting to pay off... But it does take time...Yes we need to reduce the population of our deer herd because the state simply doesnt have the room because of the population of people moving into it...I dont know about you but I would rather have venison on my plate rather than a dead deer on the side of the road or laying dead from starvation because of the lack of habitat.. What he is proposing is a bit of a quick fix on the bucks though and I am in COMPLEAT agreement on that with You and huntsman..I like my plan that I have implemented on my property..Oh and one other thing I do..If I see a 3 yo deer with a lil ole spindly scrub rack Its a dead deer...I try to keep the genetic line healthy to produce the racks..Even though Im not persay a rack hunter I do believe that when you see nice big racks then you know you have nice healthy genetics  in your herd.
You want a divorce if I go hunting today??? Well sorry ta see ya go...Was nice knowin ya..Dont let tha door hit ya where tha good lord split ya :D

Offline JPSaxMan

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how is penn. new antler restrictions doing
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2004, 11:18:18 AM »
Yep, I knew it. I got my cancelled check back today from my bonus doe tag. That sad yellow sticker "WMU 3C: Box Closed" :cry: . BUT...I didn't get my first tag check cancelled....yet :grin: . I'm praying I get that one...if I don't...I'll shoot myself.
JP

Attorney: Now doctor, isn't it true that when a person dies in
his sleep, he doesn't know about it until the next morning?

Doctor: Did you actually pass the bar exam?

Proverbs 3:5 - Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding

Offline Steelbanger

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how is penn. new antler restrictions doing
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2004, 01:15:06 AM »
cam69cov,

I find it interesting that you mention deer starving because it wasn't that long ago that our PGC recommended that we shoot the smaller (yearling) deer during "doe" season because of the fact that these smaller, less aggressive deer are the first to succumb during severe weather. It made sense then and to me it still makes the most sense so that is what we try to do where I hunt. And as a bonus the venison from these smaller deer is excellent!
"He who has gone, so we but cherish his memory, abides with us, more potent, nay, more present, than the living man."
Antoine de Saint-Expuéry

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Marlin - a hard habit to break.