35 Intermediate for Law Enforcement & H

[BattleRifleG3]

I've been thinking about this for a while...

Many of us shoot ex-military rifles, ones derived from military rifles, or at least use many of the same rounds.  Which is fine for the original purpose... but then again, how do LE and civilian defense roles differ?

Police and armed citizens often use rifles such as the AR-15, SKS, AKM, and such with the same magazines using usually the same ammunition.  This is good for reliability and for ammunition availability and system interchangeability.  But considering that full power cartridges were designed to optimize power and weight of bolt guns at the turn of the century, and that intermediate cartridges were designed for full auto multi-range use, feeding bullets that place some priority on penetration and must also comply with the Hague convention, I start to think maybe civis and LE could use something different.

Police and civis mainly use semi-autos, not just due to laws, but because their uses require fewer shots that must be aimed well.  Overpenetration is a very bad thing, a huge liability that risks harming the person they're trying to save.  Occasionally, single hits from military rounds are inadequate to stop a violent criminal instantly.

I think a new round is in order for these uses.  Since most defensive or police situations are at shorter range than military ones, long range ballistics shouldn't have as high a priority.  (Of course snipers would still use 308 bolt guns or precision semi-autos.)  Since civilians and police are not under the hague convention, they can use whatever shape of bullets are best suited to maximum energy transmission and minimizing overpenetration.  A wider, heavier, hollowpoint round would hit a violent criminal much harder at realistic ranges.

My concept is for essentially a shortened version of the 35 Remington using modern pressures to obtain similar ballistics with a wide range of bullets, particularly those intended for the 357 Rem Mag.  Shortening the case would allow use of all bullet types and better feeding from standard magazines in an AR-15, AKM, or Mini-14 type carbine.

Of course this round would be great for hunting as well, which could help secure the round's place in the market and make it possible to use familiar semi-autos for hunting (which is commonly done with the lower caliber versions on small game.)

This concept seem good to anyone?

[Mikey]

BattleRifleG3:  I had thought of basically straightcasing the M-16 case to mimic the older 351 Winchester Self Loading cartridge, except bringing it up to the 357 barrel diameters to avail the shooter/reloader of the more commonly available components.  I think such would make an excellent civilian defense round but would be great for hunting as well.  Just my two cents worth here.  Mikey.

[BattleRifleG3]

I had the same idea, but based on certain measurements, the rim would have to be rebated a bit and the round would have straight walls, which don't make for good feeding.  I figured one based on the 7.62x39mm or 35 Remington would be better.  There are plenty of 7.62x39mm bolts for the AR-15.

I've seen very little of the 351 WSL, but have seen a rifle or two chambered for it.  I'd be interested in more info if it were available.

[Leftoverdj]

.357 Max Rimless.

.223 case blown out and cut to length.  Works through existing magazine, can be cut with a stock reamer, uses stock loading dies, and will push 180 grain bullets to 2000 fps from a carbine barrel. Depending on your brass, you might have to inside neck ream, but otherwise it's straightforward.

[DPRinks]

Gentlemen;
You have re-invented the .351 and .401 Win auto loaders of the early 20th century.
I can remember even as late as the '70's deputys and local police keeping , usually a .351, sometimes a .401 , in a ceiling clamp in their cars, they finally quit after all the ammo ran out, most of it was dropped in the 40' or 50's and the nos finally ran out.
They carried these rifles bacause they had confidence they would stop anything from a Brahma bull to a 2 legged varmint and do it right now.
Don :-)

[Leftoverdj]

Knew that, DPRinks. Back when I had an ammo manufacturer's licence, I made a fellow up a batch of .351. Charged him a pretty penny, but he walked away smiling.

Winchester reinvented it, too, 9mm Win Mag. They got as far as making the brass before dropping it. One of the makers of M-1 carbine clones was supposed to be set to offer the chambering when the idea fell through.

Pity!  That combo would have met a lot of needs very reasonably, and would have gotten the carbine up into being a reasonable deer rifle.