Author Topic: 1894, cal. 44 Mag. - hopeless (Read 2669 times)

Sverre A. · « **on:** September 02, 2004, 11:25:05 PM »

I have two 1894-models - one in .357 and the other in .44 Mag. The first one: Top accuracy. The 44? Hopeless! I have tried Hornady XTP (240 and 300), and lot of hard cast bullets (.429 - .432), but the groups are 6-8 inches at 60 yds. Anyone who wants to tell me something else than: Throw it away!

jimmyp50 · « **Reply #1 on:** September 03, 2004, 01:52:12 AM »

Iron sights or scope?

from the side of a pine tree two weeks ago at 50 yds my 1894 44 magnum with Leupold 1.5 x 5 scope made one hole about 1 inch wide with 3 shots of WW 240 grain softpoint whitebox ammunition. This or better is what I expect from the gun. If it is a scope, you might look there first, if iron sights I don't know what to tell you but clean it, look in the barrel, look at the crown if the crown if really dinged it could be an issue, and if you can't find the problem send it back to Marlin. jimmyp

Mikey · « **Reply #2 on:** September 03, 2004, 02:42:48 AM »

Sverre: Please take a good hard look at your bore, it may be pretty rough and needs a good lapping. There isn't any real good reason why that rifle shouldn't shoot. You amy also need to slug your bore to check the diameter. Some of the Marlin shooters have found their 44 magnum bores to be very oversized and you may have a similar problem.

Also, you didn't mention if it was scoped or if you were using open sights. If your sights are open and factory, please check to make certain they are tight to the barrel. If the front sight happens to be a tad loose it will throw your groups off badly. If the rifle is scoped, check the tightness of all screws, etc., then check the scope as it may have gone south on ya.

If all else fails and she still won't shoot for you but you really want a 94 in 44 mag, send it back to Winchester and have them fix it for you. I recommend that as I had serious problems with a Black Shadow I once bought and the thing went back to the factory twice before I even got it to the range. Now, a bore lapping and 300 rounds later I wouldn't get rid of it for a tall blonde (lol). HTH. Mikey.

Sverre A. · « **Reply #3 on:** September 03, 2004, 04:16:00 AM »

I have shot it scoped and without. I will try to clean it very good - and try again. I`m living in Norway - so it will be "long road" if I have to ship it to the factory.

Wrong Way · « **Reply #4 on:** September 03, 2004, 05:30:33 PM »

I had a Marlin .44 mag levergun some years ago. It didn't matter what brand of ammo I used, I was lucky to keep them all on a garbage can lid at 50 yards. That experience scared me away from Marlins for almost 15 years. Scared me away from Marlin revolver calibered rifles forever. I can say that I have never had a problem with their 30-30's. Marlin and Win. 30-30s are all I own anymore.

Old Griz · « **Reply #5 on:** September 05, 2004, 06:07:47 PM »

:cb2: Had lots of trouble with my Marlin 1894 .44 mag. First it wouldn't feed. Then, I had the same accuracy problems. Finally got rid of it. I heard a lot of people on the Marlin forum complain about problems with the .44, but none with the .357. I replced it (much later) with the Cowboy .357 and it is really a sweet shooting rifle. Never will trust a .44 again except my handguns.

Plainsman · « **Reply #6 on:** September 05, 2004, 06:55:46 PM »

What velocities are you pushing each load?

What kind of rifling do you have? Ballard or Micro-Groove

What powders are you trying?

I use everything from 180 gr to 300 gr out of mine and can achieve 1" groups at 50 yards with mine with peep sights standing unsupported. BUT, I found that it is tempermental with some (soft) cast bullets at high velocities.

Let's hear more about what you have tried to give you some suggestions.

Sverre A. · « **Reply #7 on:** September 06, 2004, 04:24:30 AM »

The powder is Vihtavouri N 110 (in Norway we can`t get american powder).

Bulletweights: 240-260-280-300 gr. (hard cast).
Powderweight from 15-21 gr. for all of the bullets.

Hornady 240 and 300 XTP - 15-21 gr. with N110.

Velocity: 1300-1700 fps

Micro Groove

Plainsman · « **Reply #8 on:** September 06, 2004, 10:46:30 AM »

Hmmmm....

Well your velocities aren't of the ballpark... N110 is similar to H110 or W296 here I do believe...

And you are having problems with both cast and jacketed...

The only thing that I can think of that you have control over at this point is to ask about how you are crimping your bullets? Otherwise, I'm at a loss on this one currently.

I'll do some investigating as I don't like to be so confused...

Quote from: Sverre A.

The powder is Vihtavouri N 110 (in Norway we can`t get american powder).

Bulletweights: 240-260-280-300 gr. (hard cast).
Powderweight from 15-21 gr. for all of the bullets.

Hornady 240 and 300 XTP - 15-21 gr. with N110.

Velocity: 1300-1700 fps

Micro Groove

Sverre A. · « **Reply #9 on:** September 06, 2004, 11:32:13 AM »

<The only thing that I can think of that you have control over at this point <is to ask about how you are crimping your bullets?

I have tried different crimps. I have owned two 1894 in .44 Mag. before -and never had any reason to complain. But this one: Ohfffffff!

Plainsman · « **Reply #10 on:** September 06, 2004, 12:33:56 PM »

You do have a lemon there don't you!!

I'd hate to say it, but rebarreling comes to my mind now too! I've never lapped a barrel so I can't say how much that may help, but I guess it might be cheaper than rebarreling...

Wait, I have another off the wall idea...

Have you checked the crown on the barrel? Something simple but often overlooked.

Good luck and let us know what you end up doing!

shootrj · « **Reply #11 on:** September 07, 2004, 04:21:23 PM »

I'm thinking that what you need is a good cleaning take the wood off plug the barrel fill it with household ammonia leave it soak over night then rinse it out with water scrub it with a bore brush if you want to scrub it with ammonia, do it but get a nylon bore brush. [ammonia eats and dissolves copper including the copper in most bore brushes].this will clean out any copper fouling. Do this until patches come out with no trace of blue then [and this is borrowed from beartooth bullets tech. manual]go down to the super- market and get a copper scrubbing pad unroll it and wrap a piece around an old bore brush so it fits snug in the barrel and scrub the bore with this[it works better than a bore brush believe me]when you are done and patches come out clean clean he bore with J.B>compound after you polish it with that clean it completly on last time with hoppes and oil until patches are clean.do this and your gun will probably shoot a hell of a lot better.shootrj2003

Sverre A. · « **Reply #12 on:** October 03, 2004, 11:58:04 AM »

Now I have cleaned the barrel but the accuracy is still hopeless.
Maybe I have to size down the bullet?
(I can`t get a .430" diameter slug down the barrel without using a hammer)

rp85 · « **Reply #13 on:** October 05, 2004, 08:21:07 AM »

hello;

once has a mint ruger 44 carbine. with my reloads a garbage can lid was safe at 50 yards. sold the gun. purchased a marlin 44 and with the reloads used in the ruger, the marlin had hard extraction of a fired case, high pressure. what was different from reload in the past, the primer. was using win. large pistol mag primers, went back to just cci large pistol primers with the same powder charge (18.5 gr of 2400) everything did ok. accuracy was @2-3" at 100 yards and the bullet speed even increased with just large rifle primers, per a chronograph. bum reloads caused me to get rid of a mint ruger 44, sometimes we just short circuit. primers are cheap.
rp

Sverre A. · « **Reply #14 on:** October 11, 2004, 11:26:31 AM »

<So, after you tapped it down the barrel what size was the slug?

It measured .431. I have noe tried bullets with larger diameter. Maybe that is the solution?

Sverre A. · « **Reply #15 on:** October 11, 2004, 12:47:49 PM »

I`m looking on my post 1 - and read that I have tried .432 bullets. That`s wrong. .431 is the largest diameter I have tried.

Mikey · « **Reply #16 on:** October 11, 2004, 01:30:22 PM »

Sverre: I still think you should first fire-lap that bore and then use gas checked slugs of your weight preference in bore size .432".

Beartooth Bullets and Veral Smith both sell fire-lapping kits. I know Beartooth supplies bullets of .432 diameter for that purpose in their kits and sells many different designs of 44 magnum caliber gas checked bullets that work wonderfully in the 44 magnum.

I have used both (Beartooth and Veral Smith) and have followed their procedures with their materials on two different 444 Marlin rifles and the results were very gratifying. My groups were cut by more than half. I recently enjoyed a wonderfully successful and gratifying hunt because of the enhanced accuracy fire-lapping my bores provided. Also, you never did mention if your cast bullets were gas checked or not. If you have a rough bore that needs fire-lapping, plain based bullets will foul your bore and knock off your accuracy quickly.

I would really try fire-lapping first, I think it will improve the accuracy to where you are happy with it. HTH. Mikey.

oneredbarn · « **Reply #17 on:** October 11, 2004, 03:13:24 PM »

Went out last night with my 44 marlin with 200 grn cast bullets and 10 grains of unique. With open sites at 50 yards would group around 3 1/2 inches. Have shot a lot of rounds through it so it may take some shooting before they start grouping good.

Sverre A. · « **Reply #18 on:** October 11, 2004, 03:14:11 PM »

Then I have ordered a fire-lapping kit - and will come back with the result.

Buster · « **Reply #19 on:** October 15, 2004, 03:54:54 AM »

Boy I hate for a gentleman from another country to get a bum American made rifle. Especially a Marlin which is usually quite trouble free. Heck I've got a Ruger revolver that will shoot twice as well as this man's .44 carbine!?!

Sverre perhaps you can exchange it for something else? Sounds like you have explored every avenue except oversized bullets. May be a thousandth larger will grab that microgroove rifling and spin like it's supposed to. I do wish you success!

RWH24 · « **Reply #20 on:** October 16, 2004, 12:27:16 AM »

Check out this site for some info:

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

Graycg · « **Reply #21 on:** October 16, 2004, 05:45:30 AM »

If you can get some factory 44 ammo and give it a try, that might answer some of your questions....I had a 44 mag ruger that wouldn't shoot any lead bullet I put into it, no mater how heavy or how light, nor sized up our down...tried jacketed bullets and it shot aces...I don't know why, it just wouldn't shoot lead bullets. Most manufacturers want you to try and shoot factory ammo out of it before you ship it back anyway. Marlin firearms are truly well build machines and should work well for you.

best of luck and regards,
graycg

CharlieinKansas · « **Reply #22 on:** October 21, 2004, 04:26:08 PM »

So, from all that I have read on GB's forum, Leverguns forum and other places is the "44"mag cartridge kinda hopeless to shoot through a levergun. or is there one that will shoot this round straight on target right out the box? I don't see why there is such a problem with this round as opposed to other pistol cartridges.

fffffg · « **Reply #23 on:** October 21, 2004, 05:21:54 PM »

buy a box of factory bullets that the factory recommends and give a good cleaning and try groups with those.. the most important thing to change in reloading is the POWDER.. i didnt recognise the powder your using, but change , and use at least three other powders.. ive found that 1/2 grain can make a huge difference in accuracy. put a moderate heavy crimp in the die of the best shooting bullet you have so far and set it at the best bullet lenght you have found and shoot three more powdedes and find the best load with the three powders starting at minimum working up to max in 1 grain intervals.. when you find the best groups check out the best group with .5 grain intervals and slightly change the crimp.. sometimes to much ooommph at the end of the stroke will throw accuracy off. so a faster powder can work better in a short barreled gun. be sure to give a good cleaning between days of shooting sessions.. record which bullet hits where first second and third for inital testing. this can tell you what is going on.. if it is stringing this can help you. if it is scattering them all over that means someting is wrong.. i believe your problem is in powder and crimp..also if you are pushing or dropping velocity to extreems you can exceed the bullets design and throw of accuracy. factory bullets will tell you if this is a problem.. goodluck dave..

Triple4 · « **Reply #24 on:** October 25, 2004, 02:11:55 AM »

Being a 444 junkie and a 44Mag junkie I have traveled many a a path with Marlins shooting pistol bullets, the 1894 in 44Mag can be a problem to get to shoot right. Jacketed bullets need to be pushed very hard to be accurate it seems always at there upper range, Ive always use H110 or H108 and have had very good luck with most of the bullets that are out there but Speers 240gr Gold Dot, 270gr Gold Dot and there 300grPSP shoot the best.

Hardcast bullets are a horse of a different color with most Marlins the 44mag with Micro-groove need:

1. A copper free barrel.
2. A barrel that has been shoot at least 500 times with jacketed bullets or has been Firelapped properly.
3. Hardcast bullets need to be pushed very hard at the upper end.
4. All screws very tight check the barrel band.
5. do not get the barrel too hot to touch during shooting.
6. Once you get the group you are happy with do not clean the barrel and if you do you must foul the barrel again.

Hardcast bullets for our two Marlin 1894 44Mags run .433 or a shade bigger, we cast our own and use a cheap Lee sizing die ( under $10.00USD ) that we modify to throw a .433 bullet ( all this takes is a brass dowell, emery cloth and a drill press anyone can do it )
I do use a gas check, Why? because I drive these bullets hard and need all the help I can get. The mould we use casts a 265gr bullet with 80/20 wheel weights and Linotype we run these at least 1700FPS maybe a tad faster, but we get 2" or less at 100yards.

Marlin Micro-groove can and will shoot good but you have to work with them.

fz4vgq · « **Reply #25 on:** October 25, 2004, 08:07:53 AM »

Anybody know if the 1894 Cowboy models with cut (Ballard) rifling are any less tempermental in the accuracy department? I have a deposit on one (24" barrel with a checkered straight grip stock), I have a 1894CS .357 and it is a tack driver out to 100 yards, was hoping one in .44 would be similar.

Sverre A. · « **Reply #26 on:** November 06, 2004, 03:37:40 AM »

Sold it.