The Russian pain.

[magooch]

So, how long will it be until the Russians grow a set and do something about terrorism?

[dukkillr]

haven't they, um, like... invaded chechnya twice in the last decade?  In 1994 and 1999 russians invaded the "break-away" province...

i'm not sure what you mean by "... grow a set and do something..."  one could also point out that they raided a theater and more recently a school after relatively short periods of non-negotiation...  one could compare it to our "set" when we waited months before doing anything in waco...

perhaps you could offer suggestions?  I hope to god a situation like they've faced never occurs on american soil, and until it does they have my sympathy.  i'm also certainly not going to tell them how to deal with rebellious provinces.

[powderman]

The news said that many of the terrorists were arabs associated with al qaida. The day will come when the entire world will see these Godless scum for the fast growing cancer they are, I just hope it's not too late. POWDERMAN.        

[FWiedner]

The situation at Waco was American citizens practicing their chosen religion in the privacy of their home and church.

They were were subjected to a military style assault by agents of the U.S. government, and 83 of them murdered because one of them was suspected of violating a simple tax issue, that being a suspicion that there were unlicensed fully automatic weapons on the premises, an allegation that was never proven, and for which evidence was, at best, spotty.

Those Americans chose to defend themselves against an overt attack by a government that was clearly in violation of Constitutional boundaries.

Because those Americans chose to stand forcefully in defense of their religious beliefs and human rights, they were villified, slandered and libeled in and by the media and the U.S. government, and then they were subjected to physical and psychological torture and ruthlessly murdered by that government.

Waco was the real-life demonstration of what Americans can expect if they stand up to defend themselves against government tyranny.

The only terrorist activity at Waco was on the part of the U.S. government.

[tubbythetuba]

They were were subjected to a military style assault by agents of the U.S. government, and 83 of them murdered because one of them was suspected of violating a simple tax issue, that being a suspicion that there were unlicensed fully automatic weapons on the premises, an allegation that was never proven, and for which evidence was, at best, spotty.

Your almost correct. I feel the Govn't was over the top, too. They could have got  the person off compound at one time or another.  One thing, tho, that one person could have chosen to leave the compound and answer the questions asked of him. Being a CULT, he chose to stay and put everyone at risk, knowing the others would blindly follow him anywhere.....even to hell. Every death there can be followed back to that one person, Sir.  If a cop stops a car for good cause and the driver reaches for a gun, and the cop opens fire and a pass. in the car gets hit, that is not the cop's fault. The fault is with the driver. As soon as we start questioning LEOs at the point/time of enforcment, THAT is when the system starts to fall apart.

[Robert]

one could also point out that they raided a theater and more recently a school after relatively short periods of non-negotiation... one could compare it to our "set" when we waited months before doing anything in waco...

I am not going to get into the Waco debate, a sensless tragedy on behalf of BOTH SIDES. IMHO
  But as far as the Russians swift action....both times resulted in massive body counts of innocent people.
  I certainly do not know a lot about the Chechnya situation...but it sounds very much like a people that want to be free from an invading force.  I don't support terrorism....but it sounds very much to me like a statement is being made to the Russians.  "Take our freedom and you will pay dearly".  Would you fight if Russia tried to run your country and 'fixed' elections by and not giving you your true choice of leadership? How about Ireland?  We hardly call the Irish terrorists.....they are allowed to come and go freely in America although they are considered terrorists to our buddies in England.

[tubbythetuba]

Good point, Robert!  If you try to untangle it, the more confusing it gets. I know this: My country is under attack....has been for decades. I don't care who the enemy is; I want to kill them. Period. I want to stop the countries who help them. Period.  In Iraq, the people who most needed the freedom we gave them are now the people who want us dead the most.  One wonders if maybe  the USSR knew the correct way to govern these people??? Could it be true that some cultures can not be changed?

[IntrepidWizard]

religion is at the bottom of Waco,911,Iraq,Russia attack,and those minds cannot be changed or negotiated with because it is taught and ingrained from early childhood.

[Major]

Well tubby, you asked, “Could it be true that some cultures can not be changed?”  

All I will say is they (the Muslims) have lived for 1500 years under the rules of “do what your leaders say or die.”   We can not and will not change them in a few years with just “a taste of freedom.”

My only comfort is in the fact that they are after all that are not of their religion (and even some that are) and have the whole world to hate and attack, not just the U.S. and the town I live in.

You also said, “I don't care who the enemy is; I want to kill them. Period.”   I am with you 110% on that.   Maybe, as the rest of the world wakes up to what is going on, the problem will finally be dealt with!

Yes IntrepidWizard, I think you are right, they will not be changed.

[Graybeard]

The situation at Waco was American citizens practicing their chosen religion in the privacy of their home and church.

They were were subjected to a military style assault by agents of the U.S. government, and 83 of them murdered because one of them was suspected of violating a simple tax issue, that being a suspicion that there were unlicensed fully automatic weapons on the premises, an allegation that was never proven, and for which evidence was, at best, spotty.

Those Americans chose to defend themselves against an overt attack by a government that was clearly in violation of Constitutional boundaries.

Because those Americans chose to stand forcefully in defense of their religious beliefs and human rights, they were villified, slandered and libeled in and by the media and the U.S. government, and then they were subjected to physical and psychological torture and ruthlessly murdered by that government.

Waco was the real-life demonstration of what Americans can expect if they stand up to defend themselves against government tyranny.

The only terrorist activity at Waco was on the part of the U.S. government.

Well said. I'm in full and complete agreement.

Yes, he could have come out. But if he had I'm sure the democraps in charge would have still found a reason to do what they did. They never had any intention of letting those innocent folks live. Just as at Ruby Ridge. It was government run amok.

The day is coming when we all must make the same choices as those at Waco and Ruby Ridge did. We'll either stand and fight and likely die or give in to a government gone power mad. I see the day not so far away when things in the US will be even worse than they were in communist Russia before the wall fell. I think it is too late to stop it already.

[Nightrain52]

Graybeard, I think you are right that it is already to late. With morality and discipline a thing of the past I don't think it can be reversed now. Every year for the last 20 or 30 years we have lost some of our rights every year. I know where I stand And I will not go down without a fight.

[powderman]

I don't think it is too late at all. Here in KY we elected a Republican gov for the 1st time in 33 years. He ran on family values, which the dems have none, pro life, vs pro death, he ran AGAINST gay marriage, which the dems support. I could go on, but the point is, the people of KY have had enough of the liberal thinking that is taking our nation down the toilet. We pray daily for president Bush. It's great to have a president who will stand up to the aclu, aka Anti Christian Liars Union. It's wonderful to have a president to pray with, and for his people, compared to klintoon who preyed on them. Elect the right people, push to have bad laws repealed, and most importantly, PRAY. POWDERMAN.        

[tubbythetuba]

I'm not saying things suit me to a tee in today's America, but consider this: Communist purges probably accounted for 100,000,000 deaths in the last century. That counts Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Uncle Ho and the rest. I couldn't possibly disagree more than  to establish a moral equivalency between communism and America. I mostly agree with what you are saying, but that might be going a tad far :eek:

[Graybeard]

Tubby, if you're referring to my comments they are merely my predictions of a future I think it is too late to prevent. The purges you mention will pale in comparison to what is to come.

Just wait until the US signs onto the "one world government" plan already signed by many of the most powerful nations of the world. With that acceptance the US Constitution ends. With the US the last major hold out all the other nations will quickly fall in line or be forced to just as Russia forced all those smaller nations into the USSR so long ago.

The first to go will be all of us know gun owners whether we've turned in all our guns or not. They will not take the chance we still have any left. Of course by then there will have been door to door searches to take them. Sure some will fight when the time comes. But you'll be fighting the entire US military and also the UN troops who will then be on US soil and the US troops too will be wearing the blue hats and under the leadership of some foreign national.

Doom and gloom prediction? Sure. Just a precursor to what the Bible tells us is to come. We're sure drawing near it in my own opinion and I just don't think this freight train can be stopped in time.

[tubbythetuba]

Tubby, if you're referring to my comments they are merely my predictions of a future I think it is too late to prevent. The purges you mention will pale in comparison to what is to come.

Just wait until the US signs onto the "one world government" plan already signed by many of the most powerful nations of the world. With that acceptance the US Constitution ends. With the US the last major hold out all the other nations will quickly fall in line or be forced to just as Russia forced all those smaller nations into the USSR so long ago.

The first to go will be all of us know gun owners whether we've turned in all our guns or not. They will not take the chance we still have any left. Of course by then there will have been door to door searches to take them. Sure some will fight when the time comes. But you'll be fighting the entire US military and also the UN troops who will then be on US soil and the US troops too will be wearing the blue hats and under the leadership of some foreign national.

Doom and gloom prediction? Sure. Just a precursor to what the Bible tells us is to come. We're sure drawing near it in my own opinion and I just don't think this freight train can be stopped in time.

Hope, you're wrong, Bill.........better save me a place on the front line, tho. Rest assured, I'll be there.  M16s my butt.....wait till they see what a 45-70 does to a blue helmet :twisted:

[Graybeard]

I hope I'm wrong also. It's just my opinion based on the way I see the things happening in the world around me. I definitely hope I'm wrong.

[VTDW]

I will NOT be a good World Government subject.  I am pretty sure us OLD FARTS will stand and not give in however fragmented we will be across this great country.  The fact that at least  one half of our contry's citizens refuse to do what is right in order to get their 'entitlements' drives me absoutely nuts sometimes.  When I have to take the principled stand I will.

Dave

[powderman]

Hanoi john backs the one world govt , thats scary. POWDERMAN.        

[magooch]

For sure, one way we get a giant step closer to Bill's prediction is if sKerry is elected.  I prefer to believe that Americans (real Americans) are just too independent and hopefully freedom loving to allow what we have to be eroded--at least in the short run; a couple decades from now, who knows.  

As has been said many times, but it bears stating again; freedom is not free.  Every generation must pay their dues, one way or the other.  I think my generation (I'm 61) has had it pretty good, but we did pay some dues.  It would be pure wishful thinking to believe that future generations would somehow be spared the struggle, but on the other hand maybe   paying the price for freedom helps to remind us how precious freedom is.

[Graybeard]

Al the bore Gore publicly stated he would sign the UN Treaty as one of his first acts as president. Note that he didn't get the opportunity. Kerry is keeping a real low profile on it. But he too has in the past gone on record as supporting it. So should he be elected look for his signature real soon after being sworn in.

Then the only thing standing between us and the end of the US Constitution is a democrap controled Senate. Treaties once signed by a President must be ratified by the Senate to become law. Once they do become law they over ride previous US law however. Not sure if there is a time limit on how long after a treaty is signed before a vote has to be held or if it can be postponed until the democraps have enough votes.

[ironglow]

I tend to agree completely with Graybeard and whew!...FW.. on the Waco incident!
  I have been told that Koresh went to town often, and even jogged on the highway...that was the safest place to nab him..if they had a reason and a warrant...
  That killing of so many women and children, by an administration that always claimed to be so concerned "for the children", is really an eye opener !
   
   Graybeard is probably right on with his predictions, if we are saps enough to stay involved with the UN (useless nothing).

  We who are serious students of the Bible, recognize that there are only two spiritual forces in all of creation....Almighty God and Satan.
  Christians sometimes fail their God (and break his heart), and some, that claim to be Christians, are just liars in disguise.

   If someone who called themselves by Christ's name murdered little children by explosives and shooting them in the back as they tried to flee; I would as a Christian, be very vocal in calling them what they were...Satanically inspired...plus I would do my best to help the law trail such evil persons down !
  I am sure that virtually all Bible believing Christian preachers would be entirely with me!
 
   Is there any real doubt who or what inspired such an EVIL act as what was done to those Russian children?
 
  Where are the strong denunciations from Muslim "clerics" ?
   Now I don't mean little words like "deplore" or " wrongdoing"...I mean like "Satanically inspired".

    Where are those voices, where is the help in tracing this type of beasts down?

   Until I start to see more real disgust and actions from the Muslim community...I guess my mind is starting to paint an idea as to who REALLY leads them!

[powderman]

IRONGLOW. There was little denouncing the violence and murder of innocents after 9-11-01, mainly dancing in the street. Satanic is a good description of these extremists. POWDERMAN.  :x  :x  :x  :x

[big medicine]

It sounds like from what I have heard on the news today Russia says it reserves the right to go after Terrorist any time any place. Much like we have down. As far as loss of life, any time you deal with terrorist there is going to be loss of life, most likely innocent lives. These people are no more than thugs that prey on the helpless and unsuspecting. You have to hit them hard and fast and keep on them. It is not any thing that will be done in 2 weeks, and a couple tomahawk's are not going to do the job.

As far as Waco, those people may have been different in their beliefs, but they didnt attack any one, they sure were not terrorist, and I thought freedom of religion was a corner stone of this country. Who determines who is weird and who is next? I think there was a lot of made up stuff to CYA a lot A's.

I may not agree with GWB in everything he does, but at least he has had the guts to try and get the job done. Even Regan didnt have the guts to get in there and slug it out. This war on terror should have been done 21 years ago when my friends were killed in Beirut, we have toyed with these A-holes long enough.

[Big Hext Finnigan]

Howdy,

Quick word about Waco and Koresh.  He was the charismatic leader, but he was not the only leader.  It's been a few years, so I can't recall the name, but the real holdout in the seige was the segundo.  He was the arms expert and the zealot of the Mt. Carmel.  He would not allow Koresh to surrender or leave without Koresh completion of his prophetic work.  

There were more complicated issues and without doubt, it is sad that such an obvious abuse of government power resulted in a collective yawn from our country.  That there were not massive firings shows that the government is not of and by and certainly not for the people any longer, regardless of who sits in the White House.

Adios amigos,

[powderman]

Why am I having to constantly scroll to the rt on almost all of these posts? POWDERMAN.  :?  :?  :?  :?  :?  :?

[tubbythetuba]

Why am I having to constantly scroll to the rt on almost all of these posts? POWDERMAN.  :?  :?  :?  :?  :?  :?

Sorry, Powder, I couldn't read your post.....it was cut off on the right

[shootrj]

I waited until now to state my feelings as these things sit in me and don't sit well. I agree wholeheartedly with greybeard this and ruby ridge were both attacks by a government which was and ,possibly will be in the future out of control .Don't  be fooled by it's present quietness it could change with a vote.Tubby ,I and you took an oath, an oath to the constitution, not the government ,should the two be contradictory.One of our founding fathers said that governments by nature are not to be trusted .that's why the second amendment was designed so that the power would alway's be in our hands..Do I want that to happen?No because if it did I believe that the U.N.would use that as an excuse to jump in" for our own good"and begin thier work of disarmament .I know that seems far fetched and extremist to me too, but if you add all the possibilities and and the fact that even among our" friends"we are a country full of rebellious and outspoken people who are to a great extent armed and a bit too free.add to this the fact that the U.N. is concerned with one thing ,A one world government--world domination in other terms and you can see the possibilities.In the movie "Red Dawn" I think the enemy had blue berets, hmm... a warning? shootrj2003

[Graybeard]

Two possible reasons I can think of.

1. The URL in VTDW's signature is longer than a standard page width. So it forces the page to extend to the right. Same thing happens when folks post photos that are too wide.

2. You may have your screen resolution set too low as I do. I can't see it unless I use 480x640. Matt has it set  up to work at 600x800.

[ironglow]

Big Hext;
  Apparently they were after the Segundo then...so howcum we don't remember his name...I don't remember it either...must be they didn't make it very clear.
  I am very disgusted with the "heroes of Ruby Ridge".
   If I have my info correct, they wanted Randy Weaver because he once sawed off a shotgun a quarter inch too short (stupid thing to do).
   They surrounded his house for some reason or another and he was going regularly to town for supplies etc....he even knowingly, helped the agents repair a flat tire on one of their vehicles.
   Why didn't they then just grab him when he was alone? Why endanger the whole family?
  Mrs. Weaver was shot (in the face) while holding her baby, by a guy that bragged that he could consistantly hit a quarter at 200 yards.
   Then the kind of hero that shoots a 14 year old boy in the back.....

   Pictures of the time, as I recall , showed those guys dressed in camo...some had bright red headbands (why the camo then?)

    Frankly, I thought those yahoos looked like a bunch of "ninja turtles"...LOL

   Yes, I tend to agree that we must always be vigilant, no matter which party is in power...

 "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely!"....Marcus Aurelius

[Graybeard]

NEVER EVER forget that Randy Weaver only sawed off those two shotgun barrels after being requested to do so by FEDERAL AGENTS. IF that isn't entrapment what is? It was not his idea to do this. The agents went to him, he didn't seek them out, they contacted him. Then offered him money to saw off two shotguns for them.

That was one of the biggest abuses of Federal government power we've seen so far.