Author Topic: Help with an Encore .270 (Read 880 times)

Hunter Mann · « **on:** September 06, 2004, 04:49:28 PM »

Hi Guys,

This is my first post on your forum, and I was hoping that someone could point me in the right direction.

I am new to Thompson Handguns, and I recently made a purchase of the Encore .270 Hunter Package. I am trying to take my rifle hunting "to the next level". Guess I'm trying to make it more stealthy like still hunting with my bow.

I have put probably 100 rounds through this pistol, and at 50 yards, I am still pretty much all over the place......really eradic. I have used nothing but factory rounds in it. I've tried some Federal Premium loads and a different brand. I have also tried various bullet weights.

I'm just looking to drop a Northern Michigan whitetail within 100 yards. Am I experiencing a problem with rounds not matched to the barrel, or is it only me who needs modifying?

KYODE · « **Reply #1 on:** September 06, 2004, 07:43:58 PM »

:shock: hmmm :? hard to say just yet. try placing 2 small stainless washers at each forearm mounting screw to keep that rubber forearm from touching the barrel as much as possible. you may even try sanding a tad from each side where it rubs.
try lightening the trigger some. also squeeze slowly, gently applying more pressure until it goes of as surprise. try avoiding a flinch from recoil expectation.
try resting on a set of sandbags. 2 in front(stacked), one in rear. keep grip from digging in the bags under recoil by resting your hands on the bag.
make sure the scope is not slipping in the rings. apply friction pads inside the rings to help, if it is.
try another ammo brand. i had a .270 win that shot factory winchester 130gr power points well. inexpensive ammo to boot.

my 15" 7-08 will shoot the only factory load i've tried(rem 120gr hp) into 1 1/2"-2" at 100 yards.
:wink: take up reloading. it's a fun way to work with your handgun even more.
after finding a good working combo, practice from expected field positions. give it a good chance..........the handgun is much more enjoyable to take your deer with. :-D

let us know if any of these help. :shock:

Keith L · « **Reply #2 on:** September 06, 2004, 09:50:22 PM »

With any handgun I have to concentrate more on form than I do with rifle. The more I shoot the better it gets, but I still have to mentally go thru the basics with each shot. I tend to shoot low and to the left because I torque the gun over if I don't work on keeping things straight.

I bought several rimfire barrels for my Contender and shoot them as much as I can. I also have a small .22 auto that is fun to shoot, and requires me to practice form as well. The more I shoot the better it gets.

Now that I reread your post you said you were new to T/C handguns, not to handguns in general. You may already know all this stuff, and if so Nevermind. My experience will all my T/C barrels is that they shoot like little rifles. A couple of the barrels (.17 hmr and .222) are scary accurate. And all of them do the job when I do my part.

Good luck and have fun!

Hunter Mann · « **Reply #3 on:** September 07, 2004, 01:46:33 AM »

Thanks for the responses guys.

No, I am not new to hangdugns. I have been shooting handguns since I was too young to own one. And I shoot my .45 Combat Commander fairly well.

I have shot the Encore off a small homemade block rest. I have shot it from a sitting position, as well as laying down. One shot might go dead on at 50 yards, the next one 6" high to the right, and the third one may go 5" to the left.......literally that much difference. I've never seen anything quite like it. But I experienced the same thing with my brother-in-laws 30.06. Which kind of made us think that we were experiencing a problem with factory ammo made for a long rifle barrel that wasn't doing well in the shorter Thompson barrel......powder not fully burning in the barrel causing the bullet to be thrown?

(I'm an avid hunter, but not a reloader, so this is uncharted territory for me).

Being that I have a small frame (me personally...not the gun...LOL), I am wondering if it is me or the gun??? I am 5'4" tall and about 135, but that shouldn't make any difference from sitting at a table with the barrel resting on a shooting block. But due to the nasty kick of this bugger, it could be me flinching. I had my buddy watch me, and he said I didn't, but it might be subtle. Wondering if it might help to have it magna-ported.

Has anyone ever heard of having problems with factory rounds not being matched to the gun that will throw rounds like that? I would think that I should be able to pull 3" groups at 100 yards with that piece.

Wondering if I should go to the local gun store and buy about 3 boxes of different ammo from that which I have already tested to find out if it helps.

Suggestions?

KYODE · « **Reply #4 on:** September 07, 2004, 02:39:50 AM »

if you can afford that much ammo.....you will likely find that one will shoot better than the others.
hmmmmm :? the small homemade block rest.......if it's solid it may not hold the gun really steady. sandbags will let the gun sink in, and it doesn't actually take much to keep it on target.
consistency is the key in shooting tight groups. grip.....hand placement....gentle trigger squeeze....etc.

reloading your ammo...tailored to what the gun likes would definately improve groups. but hunting seems to be your main objective. i'd think you could find a factory ammo to produce better than you are getting.
first, try to eliminate YOUR shooting mistakes. a good bench rest such as sand bags can eliminate most of your influence. you want the gun to almost sit there by itself.
i use old jean legs, cut off to length, tied off on ends, and filled with finely ground plastic. corn cob tumbling media, and rice are a couple more that can work, and then there's sand, which works great but is heavier.

try all these suggestions with what ammo you have first. if no results, then maybe more ammo

i understand you are already a handgun shooter, but there are tricks to get the most out of these bigger hunting handguns. they just do not handle like a 45 auto. for example....when sitting on the ground for hunting position, try resting the forearm on the side of your bent leg......or cradle it between your knees, with your back against a tree etc...........and i wouldn't expect 1 1/2" 100 yard groups from field position, unless you were extremely practiced.

22hornet · « **Reply #5 on:** September 07, 2004, 02:57:44 AM »

If you want to really know if your flinching have your buddy load or not load while your not looking and then give you the gun. You'll find out for real if your flinching when you squeeze one off and he didn't load it. I had my wife do this for me one time it was really an eye opener. Helped me realize that I was starting to flinch something fierce.

Fred McIntire · « **Reply #6 on:** September 07, 2004, 03:36:18 AM »

A couple of things come to mind.

1. Is your rest thickly padded in the shooting stand you made? If not, this will cause the gun to "jump" when fired.

2. Are you shooting scoped, red dot, or open sights? If scoped, you could have a bad scope that is jumping all over the place after each shot.

3. You are talking almost a 1 foot spread between the shots! If it is not either of the above, call Thompson / Center and send it back to them for inspection.

There is definitely a problem here. I don't think it has anything to do with the ammo. The spread is too big and too erratic. If it is scoped, I would almost bet money that you have a bad scope or the mounts are not stable.

Let us know what you find the problem to be.

300 Loudnboomer · « **Reply #7 on:** September 07, 2004, 02:36:41 PM »

You admit that you are new to this type of pistol shooting , It has its own style and technique That requires alot of practice to master . You may consider finding somebody that has more experiance with this type of shooting and ask them to try your encore .
With the barrels I have practiced with , most of my 5 shot groups will run 1 1/2 Moa and on my real good days I will get some under 1 MOA . For me to get and keep consistant sub moa groups from my barrels I have to shoot weekly and I just dont seem to be able to get that much time .

Hunter Mann · « **Reply #8 on:** September 07, 2004, 04:20:41 PM »

Thanks for all the responses.

The bench rest sounds like the best bet. That block is nothing more than a wood block, so barrel jump sounds like the best bet.

And yes, I did have the same problem with his 30-06 at his house. Used the same kind of rest. Might explain being better to shoot it from a stand than the bench.

Obviously you are talking to a guy who doesn't do much bench rest shooting. But I will try shooting it from a bench.

I will also try letting my wife load it for me and seeing if I flinch. After about 3rd round, I notice that my breathing starts to get messed up. And it becomes much harder to concentrate on technique. At 135lbs, that gun kicks my butt. What a cannon. :grin:

Maybe Magna-Porting is an option to make that gun more shootable?

Javelina · « **Reply #9 on:** September 07, 2004, 07:42:05 PM »

I agree 100% with 300 Loudnboomer when he suggests that you ask a seasoned Encore shooter to try a few shots with your gun. Certainly the recoil involved here is significant, but not impossible to manage. Your physical size and weight may indeed dictate that a muzzle brake is in your future (heck, I'm a pretty big guy but I use 'em too - no use in suffering if you don't have too! :grin: ), but for now, another experienced T/C shooter might shed some light on your issues much sooner than anything else you can reasonably try. Politely ask someone with the proper skills for some advice and I'll bet you will get to the bottom of this without a lot of stress, grief and pain.

Good luck and oh. . .by the way. . .welcome to the big, wide wonderful world of Contenders and Encores - we're glad to have you aboard! Of course you should know your life is ruined and T/C's will do the same things to you that they have done to the rest of us. I'll bet if the truth were known you're already plotting. . .errrr, planning your next T/C purchase. Again, welcome aboard! :grin: Make sure and take note of my signature file below, it's not meant to be funny, it's all true!

Safe and good shooting to you!

Javelina

Hunter Mann · « **Reply #10 on:** September 08, 2004, 02:02:55 AM »

Thanks for all the help guys. I'll let you know how it goes. I'll run a few rounds through it this weekend, while I locate someone out here in the sticks who knows Encores. I had to drive an hour and a half just to find a shop that sold them.

Plotting my next purchase? Who me? Never? (My addiction to the outdoors sports is like trying to support a heroin habit.)

I see a 41 Mag with open sights for our cedar swamps in my future.

BTW......As I have no real Thompson addicts around here, I am sure that I will be bouncing a bunch of ideas off you guys.......LIKE.....

If you were going to go with a compensator on this .270, which method would you use, and how is it going to effect the pistol?

myronman3 · « **Reply #11 on:** September 12, 2004, 02:09:37 AM »

you never have said whether or not you are shooting a scoped gun or not. i had a bad scope once, and it was exactly as you describe. the gun jumping off the rest theory holds some water; as does the theory about having someone else load the gun with you firing it to determine whether your at fault or not. if it is you fliching (and even if not) i strongly suggest a pachmayer grip. they make a world of difference in felt recoil.

we need more details...

Hunter Mann · « **Reply #12 on:** September 12, 2004, 03:35:09 PM »

Yeah, it's a scoped gun. I really wanted a .270, so I bought the hunter package that comes complete with the scope (whatever scope that is that Thompson puts on that gun).

Went out this weekend and bought a nice suede sandbag rest and some Federal Premium rounds that the guy at the store said would burn faster and be better suited for the shorter barrel of a Thompson. It made sense. We will try it off my bench this week (read in firing this cannon off the deck on the back of my house). :grin:

The way this is reacting, I would lean more toward a combination of flinch and barrel jump due to recoil and the fact that I was shooting off a block of wood (laminated beam from the house I just built).

I am also going to try something that I used to do with my bow to make sure that I "make the first shot count." I fire one shot, put the weapon down, and come back to it an hour later or so. It really helped when it came to shooting my bow. Forces you to concentrate harder when you realize that you only have one shot. For all I know I am looking down at a box of 20 of these bad-lads and seeing 20 shots in the arm. If I only take one, I may see the problem. I am also going to video tape it, so I can check out my form. That also helped out the archery shooting.

You would almost think that a .270 being as fast as it is would leave the barrel before the recoil could have any noticeable effect. But I am gathering from what I read here that this is a false assumption. If it is true, a faster burning powder or hotter primer may improve that problem.

Am I off track, here? I'll let you know what I find out when I shoot it within the next couple days.

mikemayberry · « **Reply #13 on:** September 12, 2004, 03:49:40 PM »

Hunter Mann,

I am no expert but I now own an Encore in .44 Mag (12") and a .270 rifle barrel (24").

My .270 is just now settling down to groups after about 80 rounds. I have tried all the major ammo and this particular barrel seems to like two types better than the others. Doesn't matter which two--just note that two shoot distinctively better than the others.

On my .44 Mag, I noted if I shot it too long, I would begin to get looser on my groups rather than tighter. Flinching and anticipating. I must say that I had never reloaded before getting the .44 Mag and now have a new hobby that is even more fun--reloading and shooting my own loads is VERY satisfying. And stiking a happy medium with a fairly heavy bullet and a mid-range load made it much easier to shoot than the factory loads.

Lastly, I will try the same approach with the .270 very soon. Hope to work up some loads for my type of shooting/hunting. Hoping these will be easy and satisfying to shoot as well.

May or may not be helpful, but . . .

Mike

KYODE · « **Reply #14 on:** September 12, 2004, 04:01:35 PM »

by all means, i'm no expert either, but if i could recommend one thing :wink: along with resting the forearm on that nice new sandbag, try at least steadying the rear of the gun by resting your hands on a bag in the rear, while holding the grip with 2 hands. also try not to let the grip dig into the bag under recoil.
remember to gently squeeze the trigger slowly, and apply more, and more pressure till it goes off.
there may be other viable methods also, but this seems to help me most. i think if you can steady the gun......know you are on target when it goes off........and let the gun recoil naturally, you can then determine if it's the load, or other gun problems. i usually know when my shot is good, or bad. some days i just do better than others :?

mikemayberry · « **Reply #15 on:** September 13, 2004, 01:21:14 AM »

Good point Kyode! As I read your post, I remembered that I wanted to comment about triggers.

Most of my wild shots come when I fail to concentrate on easing the trigger. As an archer for the last four years, I am now much more attuned to how the trigger can effect the overall shot. When I bust, it is usually failure to concentrate on easing off the trigger.

Mike

Hunter Mann · « **Reply #16 on:** September 19, 2004, 02:06:26 AM »

I appreciate all the help you guys have given me, and I have since purchased a simple sand bag rest for the bench. I have also purchased two different kinds of ammo....both 150 grain. I purchased Remington Core Lokt and Federal Premium Vital Shocks. Reading in some of the other threads, I can see why I get tighter groups with the Vital Shocks (faster burning powder for a more complete burn inside the short 15" barrel).

However this is where it gets a little fuzzy for me. I have been hunting most of my life with three guns....a scoped 30/30, a scoped Ruger 10/22, and a scoped 30-06. I also own 5 pistols, but the Thompson is the only scoped pistol I have ever shot. And the only other multi power scope that I have owned is the 3x9x40 on that stainless 10/22.

As mentioned earlier, I purchased the Hunter Package in .270 (gotta love those rubber grips). It has the T/C 2.5x7 scope on it. I put the scope on 5, and at 50 yards I am on the target (3" group, 1/2" low -- I should be tighter than that, but that's human error). If I put the scope on 2.5, I am about 8" low, and a much looser group. If I put the scope on 7, I am about 4" high, but just as tight as on 5.

I have never noticed that much variation in scope power and accuracy. But then again, I have never really played around with the various powers on my 10/22 (normally I have the Ruger at 9, 'cause I'm shooting at small targets like tree rats).

My thinking is that it adjusting the power of a scope shouldn't really effect accuracy as much as I am experiencing. Am I correct in thinking that I have a bad scope, or am I just being a silly Thompson newbie?

Second question (and less important) for a guy who doesn't hand load (yet) -- who makes the fastest burning .270 factory loads?

KYODE · « **Reply #17 on:** September 19, 2004, 03:28:06 AM »

the scope.....doesn't sound quite right, and it shouldn't change impact with different power settings. :? TC should back it, i'd think. call em up n see what they say. i had one of those scopes several years ago, and thought it was excellent quality. everyone can produce a lemon though.

fast powders doing better in handguns is not really etched in stone, IMO. it is a good option to try, and i find great loads using them. i also think it's just as possible to find a slow burning powder that shoots well in a short barrel. i've heard it said several times, that a good rifle load can possibly be a good handgun load. all a feller can do is experiment, and find what his gun likes.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #18 on:** September 19, 2004, 07:01:41 AM »

Quote from: cknight98

the scope should definately not change POI when changing the powers, i'd send it back to TC....

I have to agree with you on that. I would check out the scope. POI should never change.

I have a 30-06 in my Encore pistol and have a Burris 3X9X32 scope on it. I am capable of hitting a golf ball at 200 yards with this set up. Now I do not hit it every time but real close. I have sub MOA groups off the bench at 100 yards. One thing I am going different also is, I reload for my 30-06.

ftstinyc · « **Reply #19 on:** September 19, 2004, 08:07:26 AM »

From what you said I would say that your problem is the scope. The only
thing that bothers me about that is that you shoot your brother inlaws
gun the same way. Does he have a scope on his? How does he shoot his
gun? If he shoots his gun well and you don't I would say that you need
to practice.

Duffy · « **Reply #20 on:** September 19, 2004, 08:09:41 AM »

Hunter Mann,
Don't take this wrong but have you tried cleaning your bbl?
I mean REALLY cleaning it, and did you clean it before you shot it? Many of the new bbls are shot at the factory with proof loads that are extremely hot and sometimes foul the bore right off the bat. If this isn't cleaned out it just gets worse with every shot. If you have a magnifyer and a pen light just take a look at the end of the bore, if it's loaded up with copper it's gonna be worse at the throat. You may also be one of the unfortunate ones to get a bbl with the chamber not reamed straight also. (like mine)
About your scope, when you change powers you change the eye relief some or more precicely the exit pupil size. When you look through the scope make sure you center your eye the same way every time, ie there shouldn't be any dark/fuzzy ring around the outside edge. Try and pick a target that allows you to center the cross hair the same every time. Also try holding the gun on the sand bags, NOT loading/cocking it and just squeeze the trigger to see if you are pulling side to side or up and down. Finally get a good grip hold and don't let go when shooting a group, just reload/cock the hammer with the other hand. I go through this ritual just about every year when I havent shot for a long time to re-learn. With the higher recoil calibers theres lot's of "litttle" things that make crummy groups. Hopefully there's something here you can use.

Ryan

KYODE · « **Reply #21 on:** September 19, 2004, 12:04:17 PM »

there's another idea i wasn't thinking about. the target itself makes a big difference in group size. for shooting 100 yards with a 3x12 burris, i like a 1/2" dot to shoot at. may try other targets as suggested.

the cleaning is also important. i use "shooters choice", and then "sweets copper solvent". then be sure to clean the sweets out of the barrel. lately i've been finishing with "kroil" and then a dry patch.

JC · « **Reply #22 on:** October 22, 2004, 04:23:42 AM »

A clean barrle is a happy barrel. You said that you shoot a 45. One thing I tried with my 7/08 was a higher grip. It works for me and this pistol. I am right handed with short thick hands. I let my right thumrest on the top of the grip to the left of the hammer. My left hand is located on the grip in the gap left by my right " weaver combat grip " I get a firm grip on the pistol, when I reach for the trigger my finger hits the same spot on the trigger.

don't know if that helps any but it has really helped me with the 708 but it is a pussycat.

:sniper: