magnumitis?

[Bob W.]

gents, In my limited experiance a keith nose type lead bullet is probably all any muzzleloader deer hunter would ever need out to 100 even 150 yards.  This brings me to my real question.  what are your opinions/feelings about the new sabots and guns making our muzzleloaders the equivalent of a single shot .30-.30 rifle?  In Michigan we have a shotgun only area because rifles shoot too far. are we getting this way with muzzleloaders easily reaching 200yards+ ?  For your info., I do have a Knight disc. and an H&R sidekick - yes I probably would shoot 200yrds if my gun was capable and I felt I could make the shot.  I'm just wondering what your feelings are, not that I think it's wrong but I do have mixed feelings about this ever extended range shooting in shotgun/muzzleloader areas.   thanks!

[lefty41]

I share your opinion/feeling. Here in Ohio we are shotgun only for the entire state. Ohio also allows straight-walled revolvers, and I feel that a 200 yd ML is just as powerful as the 30-30, yet we can't use a 'rifle'.
Oh, well, I guess there must be some logic in the firearms we can legally use.
In OH I prefer to use my ML instead of shotgun. Everyone has an opinion on this subject and rightfully so. Just enjoy hunting with whatever you can or want to use. I have thought about going ML only for all my hunting, but just can't quite give up my Marlin and other rifles.[/quote]

[Omega]

a 200 yd ML is just as powerful as the 30-30,

Actually if you look in a handloading book the 30/30 isn't as powerful as many ML load options out there. For instance:
My Omega load - 250 gr SST/150 gr Pyrodex 2268FPS (chronod on Sunday)
30/30 Win (Hornady Handbook sixth Edition) 170 grain bullet, 2100 FPS.
 As far as distance is concerned the SST has a BC of .210 and the 170 soft point .189. So not only does the ML launch the bigger bullet faster it has the ability to shoot further.
None of this technology was available when the regs were wrote and I'm sure we will eventually see some changes made.

[Bob W.]

I didn't realize the ballistic info was so revealing - thanks - for those of us in shotgun only areas, could we be in danger of loosing our ML opportunities?  I too have a hard time hunting with only one of my toys.

[Omega]

It has long been my belief that the jacketed/saboted bullet itself is what has pushed back the barriers for muzzleloading.  Pure lead projectiles whether ball or conical can only be pushed so fast, usually under 1900 fps. With the BC and resultant trajectories of these projectiles the effective range is severely limited. Powder, ignition, rifle style or optics to me aren't the limiting factor in ML range but the bullet sure the heck is!

[rickyp]

I for one feel the need for mag power out of a M.Z. has more to do with poor shooting then distance and the gun Company's love to push the latest and greatest products

[Omega]

I for one feel the need for mag power out of a M.Z. has more to do with poor shooting then distance and the gun Company's love to push the latest and greatest products

I guess I don't quite follow your reasoning Rick, the poor shooting part. I agree many people buy the biggest just because it is the biggest. I mean if we only bought what we need there wouldn't be much reason for anything larger than a 30/06 in North America.
One thing is for sure todays market place is consumer driven and what sells focuses the market direction and right now faster further MLs are what are hot. I don't think we can blame the manufacturers for the trend because if we don't buy then there is no demand and the products aren't made.

[rickyp]

I know of a lot of hunters that only take out there guns a few days before hunting season then fire one or two shots then feel they are ready for the field.

They are all ways the ones with the biggest guns. The ones I have talked to all say the same thing. If they like the extra power just incase they make a marginal shot the extra power will still kill the animal. Mind you these are the same people that laugh at me for hunting with a handgun.

[aulrich]

wouldn't the new sabot shotgun loads be pushing the same boundary as a high p ML.  

But It would be cool to have a 30-30 lever season, not that it would be practical.  I think it still the noise = danger, when a non shooter see me fire my ML it's an oddity but if they are around when my ported 338 goes off it strikes fear into their hearts it's that loud.    

Where I live there are only token ML seasons I have a ML so that when I visit my In-Laws yearly for thanksgiving I can hunt for those big northern sasketchewan whitetails. When I originally go into it in the lat 80's (living in Manitoba at the time) I wanted to take advantage of another season then it was another tag. and before that I was bow hunting so that I could be in the bush 3 months instead of 2 weeks.

Here is the rub,every year the I take the family to visit the inlaws for thanksgiving, the rip usually has 2-3 huntable days if the weather is good so I don't have the same time a field as I use to. If this was my only time a field it would hurt to have a big buck at 175 when all I have is 125. So I do understand the need for speed.

But if success rates get too high then access will be curtailed so we are always walking the line.  and it will/has happened Pennsylvania has flint locks colorado has some goofy rules, and there are plenty of places with no scopes allowed. Where I live now (Alberta) does not even really bother with a special season, there is one but it is a late season doe hunt around town where it is near imposable to get permission.

My rig now looks different than my first sidelock but short of the scope and the position of the cap it's pretty much the same thing. For me I'll use as much technology as possible as long as it does not cut down my access.

[oneshotonekill]

I spoke to a gentleman from a large ammo manufacturer about 8 months ago regarding sabot slug technology in shotguns.  His response to me was that they had developed a new sabot/slug combo that used a high BC slug launched at high velocity and was fully capable of 300 yard deer kills.  He felt this technology would never be put into production for fear of loosing that segment of the market.  Shotgun slugs are often used in places designated as short range areas where high powered rifles are not allowed.  If shotguns were capable of 200-300 yard shots it would not be long before the restricted areas were restricted even farther to the point where they may become buckshot only and a large segment of the slug market would dry up.  For fear of putting themselves out of the slug market some of the newer technology may never be available to the average hunter.  At some point the same will be true for ML's.  If they become too capable of taking game or sabot/bullet design permits long range shooting they will/may become restricted.  Currently ML's are knocking on the door of centerfire performance.  I have no reservations about taking deer at 200 yards with my scoped inlines.  Fifteen years ago I would have never dreamed of a 200 yard ML shot with the open-sighted sidelocks I was shooting.  Technology has come a long way for the front stuffer and I believe it is very close to its peak.  If there are any further advancements I would bet several states will impose restrictions on ML's.

[Bob W.]

I guess i never really thought about the bullet technology being the biggest reason for increased ML efficiency, but it sure makes sense!  I also wasn't thinking that it would ever really make a difference when used in the rifle areas because the safety issue wouldn't be a concern.  My biggest concern ( to those who have hunted in shotgun restricted areas like in southern MI) was the safety factor. I don't know if I would like the neighbors hunting with long range arms (rifle, shotgun, or ML) behind my house even though I would trust myself to do it (double standard?)

[jh45gun]

A muzzle loader is never going to be a flat shooting gun like a regular rifle due to the projectiles used. Yea while some lighter bullets will shoot flatter and out farther I guess I am not interested in that and the magnum is a misnomer as far as I am concerned in a muzzle loader. Give me a good lead conical or ball and I will do just as well or better. Big Bullets make Big holes. Keith was not wrong on that! Jim

[rickyp]

right now there isn't much difference between a modern muzzle loader and a warm loaded 45-75.

[Redhawk1]

I think the bigger guns are not for people that are marginal shots. Some people just like big bore guns.  I like larger bullets and guns so I can shoot big lead slow. I do not buy into the 150 gr. of triple7 needed for deer, but if you want to extend your range by all means do what you have to. We are a shotgun only State but we can use Shiloh Sharps and Sharps replicas with black powder and paper patch bullets. I have a Shiloh Sharps in 45-70 and shoot 63 gr. of Goex BP with a 510 gr. pure lead paper patch bullets. It only goes 1200 fps but will punch right through a deer at 100 yards. Just another example, I went on a Caribou hunt a few days ago and took my 300 Win Mag with 165 gr. Barnes bullets. Was a 300 Win Mag needed? Well I think it was. My shot was out to 300 yards and I wanted to have enough energy at that range to make a clean kill and I did. I my opinion my 300 Win Mag was a little over kill but dead is dead. Now the other reason I chose the 300 win mag was, there are a lot of Grizzles in the area and I wanted enough gun to work in that situation if needed. I  personally love big bore guns, no matter if it is a Muzzleloader or cartridge rifle. Shot placement for me is more important than anything. But when you combine both shot placement and power, you have one awesome combination.  JMHO

[Ramrod]

Hi, I usually post on the traditional side but due to my interest in Civil War guns this thread caught my eye. A couple of thoughts.

I have a Shiloh Sharps in 45-70 and shoot 63 gr. of Goex BP with a 510 gr. pure lead paper patch bullets. It only goes 1200 fps but will punch right through a deer at 100 yards.

Redhawk1, I think you have a typo here, this load is easily capable of punching though a deer at 1000 yards. The issue ammo for the .58 cal Springfield in the War Between the States was only 60 grains of black powder, 500 grain lead bullet, and there are reported cases of horses killed at over 600 yards, and men at over 1000!
Now accuracy and flat trajectory are another matter! These are the things that the average Joe (and lawmaker) DO NOT associate with muzzleloaders. If and when they do, the modern guns and loads will probably be banned. It doesn't matter to most folks that the max lethal range is the same, the longer effective range is what counts. Gun laws are always kind of dumb anyway.

[Redhawk1]

Hi, I usually post on the traditional side but due to my interest in Civil War guns this thread caught my eye. A couple of thoughts.

I have a Shiloh Sharps in 45-70 and shoot 63 gr. of Goex BP with a 510 gr. pure lead paper patch bullets. It only goes 1200 fps but will punch right through a deer at 100 yards.

Redhawk1, I think you have a typo here, this load is easily capable of punching though a deer at 1000 yards. quote]

No I meant 100 yards. I use this load for hunting. I am not debating weather it will punch though a deer at 1000 yards. My point is, people do not need a high power load to kill efficiently.

[supermag 445]

While I live in NJ  :cry:  I just bought a new Savage 10ml-II SS camo and I love it and is topped with a camo Nikon 2x7x32.   :grin: .   While I am allowed to use this gun in NJ, I am NOT allowed to use smokeless powder :evil: .  But can use it with t7.  So this is what I am planning to do during this years muzzleloader season.   This is only way I see muzzleloaders being stopped from becoming or advancing into a longer range situation.  I guess the powder like what savage is the next step up in performance with Muzzleloaders along with projectiles with fantastic BC's.

So I do think that states can and are keeping muzzleloaders from becoming too modern.  Like Nj is doing currently.  Savage is allowed but not with smokeless powder.

JMHO

Brian

[Longcruise]

My point is, people do not need a high power load to kill efficiently.

and to further illustrate your point, i just returned from a combined deer/elk hunt with three hunters taking three deer and one bull elk.  all shooting was with .54 cal guns and round balls.  The farthest any animal went after being hit was a deer that ran 30 yards with a huge hole through the heart.  The bull fell on the spot with both lungs penetrated by the ball propelled by 80 grains of ff goex at about 35 yards.  All but one of the animals were taken within 40 yards.  The one exception was taken with a .54 RB and 80 grains of ff goex at 150 yards.  That deer dropped on the spot with the ball through both lungs.

I would never take that 150 yard shot given the quality of my aged eye sight but the hunter who did take the shot is very capable with his rifle and had a perfect standing broadside shot.

[Redhawk1]

Longcruise, congratulations on the successful hunt. And you proved my point.  

[Bob W.]

there is no question that most guns will kill at a range much longer than we have any business shooting, my concern is the flattened tradjectories and the extended practical range at which modern technology is going.  this concern is not because I'm some sort of traditional freak(although I am much more traditional than modern in my philosophy) it has to do with the range limitation of the weapon that originally allowed us to use muzzleloaders in shotgun zones.  In these areas I'm afraid we may be in for a rude awakening someday.

[Ramrod]

Bob W. > Agreed! That is the point I was trying to make in my last post. I live in a shotgun area that also allows scoped muzzleloaders. As the effective range of the muzzleloaders increases to 200 or 300 yards, will I someday be allowed to use a 30-30 or 45-70 instead of my shotgun? I doubt it. Will the non-traditional types just be banned in the more populated areas? I think so.

[JoeLansing]

I think the original question was

In Michigan we have a shotgun only area because rifles shoot too far. are we getting this way with muzzleloaders easily reaching 200yards+ ?

I'm in Michigan also, and I don't know how the original law got on the books in the first place.  Why no rifles below interstate 57?   Until problems arise from hunters accidently hitting houses by not shooting safely I think it's a non-issue.   The origninal law probably was passed by state senator John Nonhunter when his neighbor's kids were out deer hunting, got bored, and started shooting at sparrows in his house's direction.  The law was passed before hunter safety classes became mandatory.  As a rule the laws in michigan are becoming looser, not stricter.  CCW, Dove Hunting, things are getting better.  -  Joe

[Bob W.]

Joe, you sound like you would be O.K. with people using .30-.06's etc. in the southern MI areas?  I guess that would make me real jittery.  Heck, I've had problems with neighbor kids with .22s  I think the original intent of these laws were for safety ( range ) limitations, just like we have bow and arrow only areas in some instances.  No, I don,t think that comon sense and safe gun handling skills are the only conciderations to be concidered in populated areas

[zrifleman]

Most states originally adopted archery hunts and ML hunts to limit opportunity first and foremost, 2nd to that was safety to hunters and landowners. The modern in-lines are headed downhill on a self destructive course. They are getting too close to power and trajectory of modern single shots. Someday they will be restricted to regular seasons and many will end up in the back of the gun cabinet collecting dust.  As for me-I will still be hunting in a ML hunt with a traditional rifle and blackpowder.

[AndyHass]

As a Southern Michigan resident who hunts with a 300 yard muzzleloader, I see a huge difference between my gun and a .30-06!  Do a little research into the ballistic comparison.  For the .30-06, a 300-yard shot is easy...sight in 3 inches high at 100 yards and you'll hit the vitals at 300.  With my ML, I am 4.5" high at 100 to get a 200 yard zero, and about 18-19" low at 300 yards.  If you carry those trajectories out past 400-500 yards, the differences will become HUGE due to the projectile BC differences.
   While we might be stretching ML technology to get 300 yards, this is really like shooting a .30-06 at 700-800 yards, minus the aiming difficulty of the long distance.  You can easily loft a .30-06 bullet into your neighbor's vicinity, but the ML bullet won't make in more than a couple hundred yards further than the shotgun slug would have.
   Plus, a ML is still one shot.  With a rifle Joe Schmoe Yahoo can loft 4-5 bullets at long range at a fleeing deer once he misses the first aimed one instead of having to stop and reload.  HUGE gain in safety just from that fact.  It's nice to think that all hunters are moral and responsible, but we must admit it just aint' so!

[Sourdough]

First I shoot an Encore with Max Loads to kill Moose and Caribou.  But the main reason is for that one time when I'm stalking and a big bear pops up, I want to be ready.  

Another thing I do when in the states hunting, I use 165gr Noslers in my Encore.  I purchased .50cal sabots that take .30cal bullets.  These loads pushed with 150gr of Pyrodex really reach out there.  I've made several succesful 200 to 250yard shots on White Tails.  I could probably reach out to 300 or 350 yards without too much drop.  I've just never had the need or the inclination do try it.

[rickyp]

I use 165gr Noslers in my Encore. I purchased .50cal sabots that take .30cal bullets

where did you find them at?

[Vapour]

I use 165gr Noslers in my Encore.  I purchased .50cal sabots that take .30cal bullets.  

You were able to stabilize the 165 grain Noslers with the 1:28 twist Encore?  What kind of groups do you get with this combination?

[Bob W.]

good points Andy, but as Ramrod has already pointed out long range success is capable even with rainbow tradjectory conicle bullets, however there still is the concern of shooting just over the deers back - how far till the bullet hits the ground?  300yards?500? what if your using high ballistic coefficient bullets like dead centers?  1000yards? does anybody know? now I'm really curiouse.  Say your on level ground and you shoot just over the deers back (very possible).  How far till the bullet hits the ground with say using a 300grain Keithnose type bullet vs. something like a 300grain dead center. Any tradjectory proffessors out there?  this might give a realistic idea as to the "safety zone of a muzzleloader

[Vapour]

Even assuming worst case using a 195 grain dead center (which has their highest posted ballistic coefficient) at 2200 FPS the bullet is easily in the ground at 400 yards.  This assumes a worst case magnum load, and that the ballistic coefficients posted on the prbullet site are accurate--which quite a few people doubt.

There are plenty of free ballistics programs available, just try a google search if you'd like to check the numbers.  The program I used shows 76 inches of total drop at 400 yards, and 42 inches of drop below the line of sight.

Now if I could get a decent .50 to .30 sabot to work with my Encore I'd start shooting some of those 168 grain matchkings sitting on my reloading bench--and that would be a different (and very interesting) story.