New barrel for short range elk

[300winman]

I have a Ultra rifle in a 223 bull barrel and was looking at getting another barrel for hunting elk. I will be hunting in heavy cover of rainforest of the Olympic peninsula in Washington where shots are going to be about 60-80 yards max. Kinda leaning towards the 450 marlin, since i don't reload(otherwise I would go for the 45/70). I have a 300 win mag in a 700 bdl, so I don't need a cartridge that would be the same. Any ideas?

[safetysheriff]

I'd go with a .44 magnum.    No kidding.    Read Randy Garrett's website (spelling correct ?) and see what he gets out of a .44 mag' !    It's an amazing cartridge with heavy bullets out of a handgun, and it's even more out of a 22" barrel.    

The .45 calibers will hit harder, but the recoil will be worse and there are so many who just can't handle that.    With some of us the recoil becomes more of a problem as we get older; but it's a problem with a number of the young guys as well.

Larry Kelly and J. D. Jones proved long ago that the .44 mag' was a giant killer.......and it still is.

Good luck.

[300winman]

I have a ruger deerfield in the 44 mag, but have been told it might be too light for elk. But also I can not shoot Garrett or buffalo bore, because they are too long.

[MSP Ret]

Get the 45-70 and don't look back. The recoil is much less than my 12 gauge slug gun, and don't worry about reloading if you don't want to. Either the The 300 grain and 405 grain (real thumpers) soft points will put an Elk down for the count handily....<><.... :grin:

[Fred M]

44 Mag is to light for elk, because in the timber you can't always get a perfect shot. So you have to aim for the far side and that takes some punch. A 45-70 is the way to go with big bullets max loads. Fred M.

[300winman]

MSP ret

I've looked at the weak 45/70 rounds offered and they don't seem to be much better than my 44 mag.

45/70-300gr.....1880
44mag-300gr...1780(out of my deerfield)

[Cottonwood]

MSP ret

I've looked at the weak 45/70 rounds offered and they don't seem to be much better than my 44 mag.

45/70-300gr.....1880
44mag-300gr...1780(out of my deerfield)

300winman

You will never get a 405-gr or 500-gr to fit into a 44 mag case.  With the right powder you can load the 405-gr or the 500-gr and not have that much recoil.  I know I shoot these all the time and they don't bust my shoulder at 48 yrs old even.

[JPH45]

I wonder just how many elk and buffalo were killed with 400 grain bullets driven to a measly 1350 fps with blackpowder. The 450M is a good cartridge but belies the modern obsession with velocity. If a 45-70 can be used to successfully kill Cape Buffalo it will kill elk all day. I would NOT choose the 44 Mag. There is no point undergunning yourself when using a rifle. Going after an elk with a handgun in 44 Mag would be one thing, to do so in a rifle would be ridiculous. If not the 45-70 then the 450M.

[JPH45]

MSP Ret, 1780 for a 300 grain 44 Mag??? I'd check my chrono if I were you, I can drive 'em to 1525 from my 22" Handi, I've never seen any reloading data that drives a 300 from a 44 case faster than 1570. That velocity looks too much like what I would expect to see a 240-250 grain bullet driven from a 44 rifle tube to be. Sure your data's straight?

[Fred M]

My friend shoots a 45-70 to hunt elk uses a 405gr cast slug with Varget and I think it is 1800 ft/sec plus with a 26" barrel in Browning SS high wall.
Hodgdon lists 50.0gr Varget with a 405gr in a 24" barrel at 1718ft/sec.
This load will take an Elephant, with no trouble.

There is no way a 44 mag can compete with a 45-70, period! Your figures are wrong. I suppose you can use 300 gr bullets in a 44 Mag.
Fred M.

[Paul5388]

I would suppose it is possible to get 1780 fps with a 300 gr., if you can get 1360 out of a pistol with a 325.

325gr WLN GC    20.0 gr   Lil’Gun    1,360 fps   1.730"    Rem 2.5    Hodgdon
Suggested starting load: 18.0 gr
8.275" barrel

Pressure: 38,600 CUP

[dawei]

I have a Ultra rifle in a 223 bull barrel and was looking at getting another barrel for hunting elk. I will be hunting in heavy cover of rainforest of the Olympic peninsula in Washington where shots are going to be about 60-80 yards max. Kinda leaning towards the 450 marlin, since i don't reload(otherwise I would go for the 45/70). I have a 300 win mag in a 700 bdl, so I don't need a cartridge that would be the same. Any ideas?

For what it's worth I hunt GMU 618 (Matheny). MY GUN OF CHOICE is a 444 Marlin® using Hornady Light Magnum® 265gr FP bullets. I use the 444 because I received it as a gift. Because of that I don't own a 45/70 or a 450 Marlin. If I did not have the 444; and I needed a "BLACK TIMBER GUN" ;I would buy the 45/70. You have more loads available without having to reload. Another post talks about all the elk taken with the 45/70 @ black powder velocities so with today's ammo it's a sure thing power wise.

As a side note several units ie: GMU 660 (Minot Peak); limit you to a 10 or 12GA shotgun shooting slugs for elk. That's right a shotgun. IMHO a 12GA slug will certainly do the job.

Get the 45/70 and don't look back; or SERIOUSLY THINK ABOUT A SHOTGUN. If you wish to discuss further send me a PM.

Lastly; I hope you get your elk. :-)

[300winman]

For your doubts of the 44 mag here are the ballistics from Federal:

240gr =1180fps out of 6.5" barrel
300gr =1250fps out of 6.5" barrel

240gr =1760fps out of rifle(no specified barrel length)
300gr =no data for rifle

looking at the ballistics for pistol the 300gr is loaded hotter for some reason, but the 240gr still goes 1760 fps out of a rifle, and the 300 gr should be faster, correct me if I'm wrong.

[300winman]

Dawei,

If you look at the regs for washington, it does not include shotguns for legal use on elk.

[300winman]

Now I did not come here to get in arguments over 44 mag ballistics, I just wanted some ideas on a good short range elk cartridge.  I appreciate what most have posted so far, but if it came down to  the 45/70 or the 450 marlin, I would choose the 450.  The 450 is already loaded to 2100 fps w/350 gr. They cost around $22 a box, and I have seen them at every gun shop I goto locally.  All I see in the 45/70 are the lighter loads and would have to order Garrett at $60 a box or Bufallo bore at $41 a box.
And if I wanted 300gr or 405gr bullets for the 450 marlin, I can get them from Conley Precision Cartridge for $28 a box.  I'm still open to new ideas.

[Cottonwood]

300winman

Why would you have to order Garrett or Buffalo Bore?  Any normal load such as a 405-gr JSP will take anything in North America.  If you want the super hard cast bullets that Garrett and Buffalo Bore offer then that is differant.  

Personally speaking, they are not needed.

I have some 500-gr Elk Busters that are super hard cast and will penitrate both shoulders of an elk, and I don't have to load them to be shoulder busting on my shoulder to get this done either.  The nice thing about the 45-70 is that you can load real nice loads for it, or flat out teeth rattlers and jaw shakers.

But, I know I have read much on the 44 mag and its worth on elk using super hard cast bullets.  When I was out to purchase a 44 mag or the 45 Colt, I went with the 45 Colt because of the amount of CUP presure that was much less than the 44 mag.

The one thing for sure to remember, it is your choice of selection for your hunt.

[MSP Ret]

ATTN JPH45, I am advocating the 45-70, NOT the .44 Mag (I have both, different guns) and did not post the chronograph results, I think it was 300winman's post (and chronograph!) who advocated his .44 Mag loading as almost equal to a "weak" factory 300 grain 45-70 loading. I also think the .44 Mag load posted should be checked for excessive pressure and safety. I stand firm that the 45-70, not a .44 Mag, is the better, more ethical Elk caliber. 300winman did you look at the "weak" 405 grain loads or the Garretts cartridges?  That "weak" 405 grain jacketed soft point is capable of downing anything on this continent (and probably has) as well as many large species on other continents also!!!....<><.... :grin:

[dawei]

Dawei,

If you look at the regs for washington, it does not include shotguns for legal use on elk.

300winman: An obvious contradiction. I sent you my references on pages 15 & 18 of the regs. I'm calling WDF&W later today. I'll let you know what I find out.

[22KHornet]

If you think the 45/70 would be to light then go with the 450.  If you do not have confidence when you pull the trigger then it could effect your shot (to worried about getting another shot off).  While I love the 45/70 if I did not reload I would use the 450 for the additional knock down power and slightly longer range.
 
Just my  :money:

[Robert]

450 Mongo.....this was talked about on G.B. previous to most of the NEF/HR guys coming here. The 450 Mongo was a 444 Marlin foreformed to 45 caliber to fire in the Contender 45 Colt/410 barrels.  Originally, I think it was intended to eliminate the freebore of the long throat and improve the accuracy of 45's.  However....I was thinking of getting one of the NEF rifled slug barrels to try with these cartridges.  I am guessing that it could be loaded to 45-70 velocities....even the Contender can handle the pressure of 45-70, I am sure the NEF can.  So this would be something like a 45-70/ 450.  So....could anyone enlighten me?  How would the rifling in these slug barrels work with 260-300 gr bullets intended for 45 Colt?

[300winman]

Thanks 22khornet..
Like I said in my original statement I do not reload(otherwise would consider the 45/70.) I would like to in the future, but right now I stay pretty busy and during my only free time I like to be out shooting or hunting.  And if the factory loaded 45/70's will do the job then the 450 will be even better.  Waiting to find out if I can use 12 gauge for elk in the state of washington.  The regs written are alittle unclear.

[safetysheriff]

Is the 45/70 a better elk, moose, buffalo, or brown bear caliber out of a rifle than the .44 mag?    By a good bit, I'd say.    I don't think the posting I made earlier denied that.    It's just that too many people post on these sites about problems with recoil from the .45/70.    That's why I would go with a .44 mag' for elk out of a rifle as my recommendation for many of us.   AND, it doesn't have to one of Randy Garrett's loads, either.   That website was just to show what the under-rated .44 mag' really is capable of.    

If you can handle the recoil, which MSP Ret' posted as being less than a 12 gauge, then the .45/70 is better.    MSP' is on solid ground, I believe.    

HOWEVER, 300Winman's postings about .44 mag' velocities are in line with J.D. Jones observations in 'Hunting for Handgunners' that he co-authored with Larry Kelly.   J.D. said his 320 gr' hard-cast would do approx' 1400 fps out of a 7 1/2" revolver safely.   It's in the chapter titled: A Treatise on Bullets.    On page 181 he says this load has killed elephants, cape buffalo, and rhino!    It's all in one paragraph so there's no misunderstanding that this load out of a revolver has done those things, at that 1400 (approx') fps velocity.  

If I was going after elk with a rifle I'd go with the .44 mag.    If I was going after elk with a revolver I'd prefer a .454 Casull, but would get my elk with a .44 mag' if I had to.

Take care, all.

[Mac11700]

Now I did not come here to get in arguments over 44 mag ballistics, I just wanted some ideas on a good short range elk cartridge.  I appreciate what most have posted so far, but if it came down to  the 45/70 or the 450 marlin, I would choose the 450.  The 450 is already loaded to 2100 fps w/350 gr. They cost around $22 a box, and I have seen them at every gun shop I goto locally.  All I see in the 45/70 are the lighter loads and would have to order Garrett at $60 a box or Bufallo bore at $41 a box.
And if I wanted 300gr or 405gr bullets for the 450 marlin, I can get them from Conley Precision Cartridge for $28 a box.  I'm still open to new ideas.

If your just wanting to have a Big Bore...you can use either the 450...or the 45-70...but...what's wrong with using say something like a 30-06 with premium ammo in it?...I do believe it can be very very effective on just about anything you would like to hunt...and it gives you options to use it for many other things as well.......just a thought.....

Mac

[handirifle]

Boy this one seems to have fired every one up.  As far as the 44 mag goes, I say why?  If it was all you had and you could take close shots then OK but the NEF has SOOOOO many good calibers available.  Like Mac said, if you want a big bore, go with the 45-70.  I never hunted with mine but I saw it penetrate things I never thought possible with the big "slow" bullet.

Let me tell you that crap of thinking a bullet has to be going 2700fps for be effective is BS.  The was an article a few months back, I think it was in Rifle Shooter magazine, that talked about elk calibers.  The writer talked about 338 Win Mag 300WM on down to the 270.  Listing it as minumum.  Then he mentioned the 45-70.  He said that for close in work the 45-70 factory stuff really did the job.  Then he mentioned the 400gr slug at 1800fps from the 45-70 and he said the stopping power of that round was devastating.  He said you had to see it to believe it.

All this is to say that if you are hunting at 150yds or less factory stuff will serve you well.  Want to push the range a bit? than reload or get Garret and blow their legs out from under them.  No animal on earth can run far with both front shoulders broken.

1800 is not that hard to achieve with 400gr bullets either.  relaoding for the 45-70 is pretty easy and not too expensive if you go with the Lee stuff.

If you don't have to have a big bore , then get a 308 or 30-06, load em up with 165 or heavier partitions or similer.  Either one will cleanly kill and elk at the ranges you talk about, and more.

While the 44 Mag might do it, I say why limit yourself?

[quickdtoo]

Dawei,

If you look at the regs for washington, it does not include shotguns for legal use on elk.

300winman: An obvious contradiction. I sent you my references on pages 15 & 18 of the regs. I'm calling WDF&W later today. I'll let you know what I find out.

On page 16 of the 2004 Big Game rules...

1. Modern Firearm Regulations
Shotguns-Deer, bear, and cougar may be hunted with 20 gauge to 10 gauge shotguns shooting slugs or #1 or larger buckshot. Other big game may be hunted with a 10 gauge or 12 gauge shotgun using slugs.

[Ditchdigger]

I would carry the 300 mag. if it was me. I don't know how many times I've carried a 444 or a 357 herret for things up close,and had the shot of a lifetime at 300 yds away. Yep it was real smart of me to leave the 300 Wby. in the camper.  I hunt the deepest woods and then come to a logging road,and there he stands out of range. It's probably happened to all of us at some time or another.   Digger

[quickdtoo]

I have a Ultra rifle in a 223 bull barrel and was looking at getting another barrel for hunting elk. I will be hunting in heavy cover of rainforest of the Olympic peninsula in Washington where shots are going to be about 60-80 yards max. Kinda leaning towards the 450 marlin, since i don't reload(otherwise I would go for the 45/70). I have a 300 win mag in a 700 bdl, so I don't need a cartridge that would be the same. Any ideas?

I see no reason to reload unless you want better than 2moa accuracy. The Winchester 300gr JHP shoots good out of my NEF .45-70 Handi and  has a muzzle velocity over 1800fps. If you want a better bullet, go with the Supreme Partition Gold.

http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/cfrdetail.aspx?symbol=X4570H&cart=NDUtNzAgR292ZXJubWVudA==

http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/cfrdetail.aspx?symbol=SPG4570&cart=NDUtNzAgR292ZXJubWVudA==

[300winman]

I was also looking at the 7mm-08, would be a great long range deer rifle and quite nice on the shoulder :grin: . But my concerns are the effectiveness of the7mm-08 on elk, and if I bought a 7mm-08, 270, 30-06, would I ever use them if I have a 300 win mag? I suppose the Ultra-rifle would be more manageable than the big ol' Rem. 700. I guess I just need to buy them all and sort it out later!!

[oneshotonekill]

Since you already have the 300 I'd opt for a 45/70.  I have an ultra in 450M and a handi in 45/70.  The two are so close ballistically its a coin toss.  There are several debates over which is "better" IMO they are very much equal.  Since you do not reload I think the 45/70 would be much more versitile with all the factory loads available.  There are several 45/70 loads that match or exceed the performance of the single 450 load.  A good example is PMC's 350FP load its only a few fps shy of the Hornady 350FP 450M load and it is reasonably priced.  The other consideration for the 450 is if you do not roll your own and your rifle doesn't like the only available factory load, you will have a fairly heavy walking stick.

[Ditchdigger]

300Winman; You left out the best of the 7s . The 280 will hit as hard as the 06 and shoot flatter than any of  the above mentioned. Mine shoots the 150 gr. corloks at 2975 avg.,and shoots 1.25" groups at 100. Recoil is no where near the 300 gr. Win. 4570 loads off the bench.
Also I'm getting 1379 avg. in my Super Black hawk with the 300 gr. XTP in 44 mag.and 10.5 barrel. Picking a caliber for these guns will drive you nuts.(If you don't beleive it just ask some of these guys) so good luck with your choice.  Digger