Most accurate .22lr??

[goose7856]

What is the most accurate .22lr made that can be bought for a reasonable price.........IMO it is probably the CZ rifles.........(I do not want to include Anchultz, Kimber, Cooper, etc. in the list of best shooters b/c the price is astronomical)..............so all in all, which .22lr for around $300 (to $400) or less is THE most accurate??

[michael word]

I just bought a Ruger 10/22 a few weeks ago and with the right ammo and steady hold I can get under and inch.

[goose7856]

yeaaa i knew someone would say the "trusty" old Ruger 10/22, but in reality, it doesnt hold anything against a good bolt action........I have seen one five shot group by a CZ American that grouped (5 shots) at .38 inch......WOW thats awsome at 50 yards........thats what Im looking for!!

Any other feelings??

[De41mag]

I'll get some flak on this one, but in my experience, I'll have to say a T/C 22 Classic Benchmark. Good trigger, and under $400.00, I'm very well pleased with mine.

Dennis  

[dwl]

Goose;

Maybe your buddy has a good 10/22.  The 10/22 is good for what it was intended to be...a low cost semiauto carbine.  That's why it takes so much money to improve it.

In my experience the CZ 452 is a good buy.  After checking various models available at the local emporium I noticed that the better grades of CZ 22s have better triggers.  No guarantee but I suspect CZ relegates the poorer quality triggers to the lesser models and the better triggers to the better models.  A sort of after the fact quality control.

The Varmint model and the American are usually nice.  I bought the Silhouette model for $329.  Silhouette shooters may not have as tight an accuracy requirement as the benchrest crowd but they do require a good trigger and accuracy near 1" at 100 meters.  Every silhouette shooter I spoke to recommended the CZ as a very good starter gun.

I've shot about 1,000 rounds through mine so far.  It has only required a single trigger adjustment for a 2# weight of pull and a bit of tunning of the magazine follower.  Neither of these is a manufacturer quality issue.  I have added spacers to lengthen stock and will be adding some weight to the fore stock to steady the gun for offhand shooting.

As a note, all the 10/22 shooters who started shooting with us have dropped out or switched guns.  Even the ones who spent money modifying their 10/22s dropped them.

[jh45gun]

For the money a Romanian Model 69 trainer bolt action cannot be beat! They will shoot just as good as any bolt out there and have a bore that equals a target rifle. (This statement came from my gunsmith after he put a bore scope down my bore) My gun will shoot under .5 inch at 50 yards and will shoot a ragged hole at 25 yards. This is with a stock gun with a 4x12 Tasco scope on it. I would not trade it for anything. Quite a hoot to shoot groups at the range that equals or surpasses guys with guns that cost four and five times as much. All for under a hundred bucks!  :grin:  Specs Bolt action 22 lr  clip fed express open sites with a hooded front sight and grooved for a scope. Great gun for the money and will shoot as good as any of them.

[catman]

My Remington 541S great gun in .22

[Graybeard]

What is the most accurate .22lr made that can be bought for a reasonable price.........IMO it is probably the CZ rifles.

And on what level of experience is this opinion based? How many CZs have you owned and/or shot? How many of what other brands?

I'm guessing as I've kinda lost count since I quit keeping records of my gun transactions but I'd say I've owned at least 50-60 .22 Rimfire rifles give or take a few either way. Reckon I've owned about every major brand out there at one time or another.

Really old Remingtons are mighty hard to beat. Yeah the old cheap single shots. I've owned a bunch and my best friend and shooting pardner (now deceased) owned even more of them that I have experience with. He once used one to win an NRA Silhouette match against the guys using Anchutz rifles and scopes nearly as big as his rifle. He used a peep sight. Yeah the old rascal could shoot.

Now mind you my Anchutz was good but really I never got used to the dang 8 oz. trigger.

I used a Weatherby Mark XXII to win a whole bunch of silhouette matches against the same kinda stuff he beat that day. Heck used a TC carbine to do same a few times. My Weatherby once put 16 consecutive shots at 50 yards in a group I fully covered with a dime. Using CCI Mini Mag HPs. I'd put that rifle against anything I've seen over the counter. I paid $160 for it with 4X Weatherby scope.

My R541-T is just as accurate and danged if I don't think my wife's is even more accurate than mine.

I've seen Marlin Model 60s shoot 1/2" at 50 yards.

I've owned danged near all of them and worked with guys who have owned even more that I shot with and against. The one I've never owned is a Ruger. Those who know me know me and Ruger aren't exactly made for each other.  :eek: But of all them I've owned and run into dang few of them won't do 1/2" at 50 yards with ammo they like. Maybe not every time but at least often enough to tell you the potential is there. It's just up to the shooter to pull it out of the rifle.

So tell me what experience you have to back up the CZ is best opinion.

[bgjohn]

:? Greybeard, how many CZ's have you owned or shot? :lol:  I know of four 452's in my circle of shooters and don't know anybody that's unhappy with them. I have two 527's that I haven't shot yet but the quality is obvious. :wink:
JM

[Graybeard]

I have owned no CZs. That's why I don't speak to their quality or accuracy. Just no experience with them. BUT to call them BEST without a broad experience with them and others seems baseless. It is about the only brand I have no experience with at all however my experience base on the very expensive ones like Kimber and Cooper is also limited but not zero like with CZ.

I don't doubt their quality or accuracy as I know others who have them and seem happy with them. I hate the looks of their European style ones and the ideal of that set trigger turns me off big time. Don't care for the really high rings they ship with them either. Taking those factors into consideration it is highly unlikely I'll ever buy one.

[magooch]

Well, I can't match Graybeard's sperience, but I will throw my two cents in here.  I have a CZ Lux--yup the one with the humpy stock and I love it.  I also own a whole bunch of other .22 rifles and all of them are far more accurate than I am.  

I have held several competitions amongst all of my .22 rifles and the end result is that my Ruger 10/22 Target Model has the slight edge.  I don't think it is any more accurate than the others, but it is very easy to shoot accurately.  The heavy barrel, extremely light trigger and 12X scope doesn't hurt any either.

One thing I will stress about the CZ is that it is as smooth as silk to operate and mine has an adjustable trigger.  And Jim, I also have a Romanian that is amazingly accurate.  I can't help wondering what it could do if it had a trigger like the 452 or my 10/22.

To the fella that has the two 527s that haven't been fired yet--please send them to me; I'll be more than happy to break them in for you.

[Willyp]

I also own a group of 22 lr's. Early this spring,I bought a Savage MKII.
As you   may know, it is a bolt action,clip fed. [5 shot]
 I shoot from the bench{ whith a rest and rear bag }, in the summer,in the factory rifle class.
OK,back to the gun. I took 5 or 6,different brands of lr,non-copper coated,boxes of rounds,to the bench,for my first day with the gun ? The trigger felt like two river rocks,rubbing together and about 6 pounds pull.I coped with it.
After shooting 5 brands of American ammo,of which grouped{10 rds @} like a shot gun,I was disturbed with the whole set up! Box 6,was Wolf ammo. As with the other 5 brands,to control the pull of the trigger  :evil: ,I held the gun in a death grip  :eek: ,and shot a clip full. As i fired the third round and looked at the target, one hole was all i saw? Boy,I thought,this box of shells bites,I can't even hit the paper.Finished off the clip and reloaded,fired 5 more,at the same spot, walked to the target,and wow,all in or touching the same hole!!!!!!!!!! :shock: .
I never had a 22 shoot like that{ 50 yards}. I replaced the trigger and now my son-in-law or my woman,can do the same tight groups,as i do.
IMHO,$200 gun,$80 trigger= one hole groups= 1 happy old Dude :-D I must  say to try the Savage company.

[Yukon Gold]

Purchased a CZ Lux model six months back.  I was very impressed with the quality of the workmanship, and smooth action.  The sights are great, and the gun balanced well for me.

The only grip was the trigger pull.  A little too much creep and travel.  However, dropped in a $20 trigger kit - got it from here:

Code: [Select]

http://ebrooks77.50megs.com/springkit.html

Came with several springs to allow you to choose trigger pull (from .5 lbs to about 3 lbs came in the package.

Anyways, took about 15 minutes of work - trigger now is sweet.  Breaks like glass at about 1.5 lbs.

Can't compare to everything, but I have to say, best accuracy of any .22 I have ever shot.

[DAD]

Savage MarkII either FV or BV. I had both I have the FV right now and not disappointed. The BV was to heavy to carry around. Thats the only reason I traded for the FV. You won't be disappointed, just do your homework and try different ammo to find the right one. Mine does sub 1/4 groups at 50 yards from a bench.

[Keith L]

My most accurate .22 is a highly modified 10/22.  The only original part is the reciever frame.  Only problem is that for what I spent on bits and pieces I could have bought a Kimber or Cooper or something.  I am sure that I can't get the money out of it that I have in it.

[TC Shooter]

Well I'll throw on my cents worth on the CZ 452s - owned a Lux in 22 mag and still own a Special in 22lr. The mag performed very well in my opinion. The 22lr performs exceptionally well. With some brands of ammo it even outshot my old Sako Finnfire Varmint which was an extremely accurate rifle. This is fantastic performance for a $189 rifle (bought in 2002)

The shooters who appear at the range I belong to are showing up more and more these days with CZs. And the range memebers I have talked to all have high praise for the performance of their CZs. The only real negative mentioned is the long creepy trigger. It is easy to drastically improve them with a kit.

The owner of the local gunshop said he has fired and owned many 22 rifles over the years and stated the CZ rifles he now owns are easily the most accurate 22 rifles for the price. And even better than a lot of 22s costing much more. This is coming from someone who can basically buy any gun he wants at wholesale and he still goes with the CZ.

Not all the CZs have the European style stock - the American and Varmint versions have a stock that is the same as you would find on any US designed rimfire rifle.

[Bigl]

Hey Guys,
I'll stand my old Mossberg 22's up against any of the 22 rifles mentioned in this topic shot for shot.  The old Mossies are just a memory to some guys back when they were kids.  To me, the old Mossberg 22's were some of the finest and most accurate 22 rifles ever made.  Mine are consistant tack drivers.  I've had and shot them for over 35 years, and they shoot as good as the first day I sighted then in.

Just thought I add my 2 cents in.

[hogship]

Well, I haven't had a hundred different 22 rifles in my lifetime, but I've had a dozen, or so......and anyway, why would you need to have owned that many 22 rifles to know that a 1/4" group is more accurate than a 5/8" group......the answer is, you don't. The experience of having that many rifles must be a priceless asset, though.

I have a rifle that I've had since last summer that has amazed me for accuracy. It's a rifle that isn't that common, but is as accurate as the CZs, or anything else in the price range......Its an EAA Izmash Biathlon....a Russian made competition rifle.  I understand they don't import them anymore, but I'll bet they will eventually once again. Dime sized groups at 50yds are common, and I'll bet a better shooter than I am would milk it for more impressive groups that I'm getting.

Its really unusual, in that its a toggle bolt action rifle. You get the inherent accuracy of a bolt action rifle, without the hassle of moving your hold or sight picture. It only takes a flick of your two fingers to cycle the bolt....pretty darn good idea they had! Magazines are available in both 5 and 10 round capacities.

(added) Right out of the box, the Biathlon has one of the sweetest triggers you'll ever put your finger on, without sinking more money into the project. Also, the Biathlon comes with a glass bedded action....How many do you know that come that way?

For the honors of being the most accurate in the price range....the Biathlon is a contender worth checking out.

hog

[HouseofCash]

........I have seen one five shot group by a CZ American that grouped (5 shots) at .38 inch......WOW thats awsome at 50 yards........thats what Im looking for!!

I was hoping that we were talking in the 50 yard range. To much more then 75 yards I do not care what .22 you have it will not be a nail driver. That said, I can hit .38 inch groups at 50 yards with my 1970 Marlin mod. 60, with a $20.00 dollar scope from Wal-mart. You know, the kinda scope that looks like it is for a BB gun. Hole guns price about $55.00 bucks. I know people here will have there doubts, but, I would be glad to go out and video tape it for every buddy. I have been in convos like this one befor, and people never see eye to eye with me.

If you buy a high dollar .22 it is because you have nothing else to waste your money on. The .22 just runs out of steem much past 50 yards and just about any thing should hit good at 50 yards.

I hear people bitc^ about trigger pulls all the time. I think it is a cruch. I can do the same with a 3 pound trigger as I can a 1/2 pound trigger at 50 yards with a rifle. Its all about smooth trigger pulls. If you spend 300-400 dollars on a .22 you wasted way to much money.  But, if you build it and put a price tag on it. "They will come". At 50 yards my Marlin that I payed $35.00 dollars for will touch every hole with every hole I fire, no gaps. Im sure there are a lot of "PRETTY" .22s out there, with nice names, but, thats all your paying for at 50 yards.

                          Dave.

[2Guns]

I vote for Ruger 77/22.  Mine is very accurate.  I like the fact that it has a removable magazine vice tube feed and that the mag sits flush with the bottom of the stock.  The wood on mine is nicely figured and satined finished.  Plus the price was very good for the level of accuracy and quality of the firearm.

[jh45gun]

........I have seen one five shot group by a CZ American that grouped (5 shots) at .38 inch......WOW thats awsome at 50 yards........thats what Im looking for!!

I was hoping that we were talking in the 50 yard range. To much more then 75 yards I do not care what .22 you have it will not be a nail driver. That said, I can hit .38 inch groups at 50 yards with my 1970 Marlin mod. 60, with a $20.00 dollar scope from Wal-mart. You know, the kinda scope that looks like it is for a BB gun. Hole guns price about $55.00 bucks. I know people here will have there doubts, but, I would be glad to go out and video tape it for every buddy. I have been in convos like this one befor, and people never see eye to eye with me.

If you buy a high dollar .22 it is because you have nothing else to waste your money on. The .22 just runs out of steem much past 50 yards and just about any thing should hit good at 50 yards.

I hear people bitc^ about trigger pulls all the time. I think it is a cruch. I can do the same with a 3 pound trigger as I can a 1/2 pound trigger at 50 yards with a rifle. Its all about smooth trigger pulls. If you spend 300-400 dollars on a .22 you wasted way to much money.  But, if you build it and put a price tag on it. "They will come". At 50 yards my Marlin that I payed $35.00 dollars for will touch every hole with every hole I fire, no gaps. Im sure there are a lot of "PRETTY" .22s out there, with nice names, but, thats all your paying for at 50 yards.

                          Dave.

Dave it has always been my contention that the Marlin semi autos out of the box shoot better than the Rugers do. Of couse there are exceptions to the rule here but after owning 4 stock rugers I did not know what 22 accuracy was until I got my Henry 22 mag and my Romanian 69 that both will shoot under a half inch at 50 yards with ammo they like and I do my part too. To save on the arguements I suppose some stock 10/22's will do that two but out of the 4 I had none would. Yea the Target 10/22 would but to be honest my under a hundred dollar Romanian Trainer shoots tighter than the target 10/22 I had.

[Jason]

I was hoping that we were talking in the 50 yard range. To much more then 75 yards I do not care what .22 you have it will not be a nail driver. That said, I can hit .38 inch groups at 50 yards with my 1970 Marlin mod. 60, with a $20.00 dollar scope from Wal-mart. You know, the kinda scope that looks like it is for a BB gun. Hole guns price about $55.00 bucks. I know people here will have there doubts, but, I would be glad to go out and video tape it for every buddy. I have been in convos like this one befor, and people never see eye to eye with me.

If you buy a high dollar .22 it is because you have nothing else to waste your money on. The .22 just runs out of steem much past 50 yards and just about any thing should hit good at 50 yards.

I hear people bitc^ about trigger pulls all the time. I think it is a cruch. I can do the same with a 3 pound trigger as I can a 1/2 pound trigger at 50 yards with a rifle. Its all about smooth trigger pulls. If you spend 300-400 dollars on a .22 you wasted way to much money.  But, if you build it and put a price tag on it. "They will come". At 50 yards my Marlin that I payed $35.00 dollars for will touch every hole with every hole I fire, no gaps. Im sure there are a lot of "PRETTY" .22s out there, with nice names, but, thats all your paying for at 50 yards.

                          Dave.

If your $35 Marlin will touch holes with never any gaps between them at 50yds, then you're shooting groups as good as $2000+ heavy benchrest guns with 36+ power target scopes shot off of competition rests with benchrest shooters with 20 years of experience using top end wind flags in good conditions and $1000 spotting scopes. You're doing better than most of them do with $4000+ of equipment shooting ammo that costs over $10 per box of 50. You should post on benchrestcentral.com and offer to put up some cash betting your gun will do this. I'm sure you'd get everyone there betting it wouldn't and you could make a lot of cash quickly and easily if your gun can seriously do that.

All joking aside, it's one thing to brag on your guns, especially the ones that shoot well. It's another to post information that isn't quite true. It makes the experienced shooter suspect of things you post in the future and makes new shooters expect more of their own guns than they should. If new shooters believe even half of the stuff posted about accuracy of out-of-the-box production guns on the Internet, they'll expect nearly any gun with any old factory ammo they pick up to be able to shoot just as well as top-end target rifles with ammunition tuned specifically to them. It is easily true that 90% of factory guns being produced nowadays will be plenty accurate enough for their intended use. Being "minute-of-squirrel" or "minute-of-deer" accurate is most definitely not the same as shooting half-MOA 3 or 5-shot groups every single time, though, like custom guns costing thousands of dollars.

As to the original poster's question, the CZ 452 series of rifles is very good, as well as the Biathlon that was pictured. With either, you can reasonably expect groups of about a half inch center-to-center at 50yds if you take the time to try various brands of target ammunition to find the one that shoots best in the individual rifle. My particular CZ 452 Varmint came from the factory shooting 5-shot groups averaging just under .48" center-to-center at 50yds. After much work on the gun, including floating the barrel, glass bedding the action, lots of trigger work, etc., the gun will shoot groups averaging in the low .30" range for five shots at 50yds. I have a target on the Park's Prove-It website showing ten 5-shot groups at 50yds that averaged .32" center-to-center from this rifle. While this is extremely good for such a cheap gun, it is by no means competitive with top-end target guns used in benchrest and other competitions and can not be made that way without dropping just as much into the rifle as I would have had to had I started with a better action like a Turbo or a Suhl. Keep in mind that it only shot that well off of competition benchrest equipment using very good wind flags, also. Just shooting off the sandbags without good wind flags opens the groups up to a half inch or so center-to-center for the groups. Of course it has shot 5-shot groups at 50yds where all the shots made a hole barely bigger than a single bullet hole, but that's only happened a few times. If I claimed that it could do that all the time, I obviously wouldn't be telling the truth.

We should all be more than a little suspect of anyone who claims to shoot "one hole" groups every time with cheap ammo in production guns, especially ones like auto-loaders with loose tolerances in manufacturing. It's just like when someone at the range claims  that they can't shoot targets well at all, but they're deadly accurate when hunting. If they can't shoot well with solid rests and sandbags, they sure can't with buck fever and not-so-solid rests or no rests at all. Honesty will keep new shooters' expectations reasonable, and will keep them from being sorely disappointed with their own guns. Honesty will also let more experienced shooters seriously discuss what works and what doesn't when it comes to accuracy, and we'll all be shooting better as a result.

[longgun]

In my opinion,  most any 22 will shoot 1/2" at 50 yards if the shooter has any abilities and selecting the right ammunition.   Where the real test happens is when you open up the distance to 100 yards.   This distance seperates the  so-so shooter  from  a good shooter.   Good shooting 22s will shoot under 1.00"   at 100 meters or yards on calm days.  I have owned many ( probably 50-60 ) over the years,  most all would shoot well at tin cans etc.........  but when you put them on paper at 100 yds,  you can really tell what they will do.  The right ammunition is a big factor here too. I've found that in the last 10 years or so that there are some really good shooting rifles for about $ 300 or less and with just a little tinkering can be made into excellent shooters.  Very rarely can one pick up a rifle out of the box and have a tack driver with out working on it a little.   This is even true on some high dollar target rifles.   Don

[HouseofCash]

Jason, you touch on some good point. But, where does your experience come from. How much do you shoot? What do you shoot? And, where do you shoot?

See, people push me because they see on the forum that I am only 24 years old. So, I must be a dumb kid, who just started shooting last year, and I must talk out my a$$ like a kid would. Im truly not here to make anyone beleave what Im saying is true. This is an open discussion, so, I gave my opinion. Thats it.

I do not get into the million dollar target guns. It is not that I do not like them, because I do like them. This reminds me of my buddys dad. He went out and got the best golf clubs he could. He paid like 3000.00 for these clubs by the time it was said and done with shoes, gloves and a bag with driver covers. He still is 30 under par on a 18 hole corce.  

Any-how my friends dad has never had any formal training and might golf 3 times a summer. Point being that, he dont need them and cant use them to there fullest. And, the golfer makes the clubs, the clubs do not make the golfer. I feel the same way with rifles. I think there are people that go out and get 10k set ups who are not on a team, dont shoot much and are not trained, because they think the 10 times they go out a year they will be hitting one holes at 1000 yards. Its peice of mind for people that need a handi-cap. Thats it.

Now, on the other hand. If I was shooting on a pro team. Your damn right I would have a pro set up. "I would not put a Yugo out there with the Nexttell cup guys". You know what I mean?

Any-how, my experience comes from about 16 years of shooting somthing. I started shooting when I was 8. It was a .22lr. I shot it every day I could for 9 years, or intill I was 17 years old "I was lucky to have a Dad with 200 acers of land and did not have to leave my porch". It just so happend to be a Marlin mod 60. That gun is gone now. It was taken out of my pickup truck, out side a gun shop in west Tenn. I was able to get another one, and today I own a few of them. I own 2 my dad owns 1. One of mine is new, only a few years old. The other is a 1970. I also own a Glenfield mod 60. Same thing I guess, shoots pretty good. Got it at a pawn shop for 60 bucks.

I also shoot about 5 or 6 days a week. My friends dad owns a gun shop and his sons and I shoot indoors almost every day pistols. I shoot close to 1000+ rounds a week out of my hand guns. There dad also owns a privat 400 yard rifle range and shoot gun range with clay throwers. So I get tons of time on there rifle and shoot gun ranges also. At lest 3 days a week.

I am not on a pistol team, but I do shoot in matchs. Im a GSSF member, my best as a GSSF member is a 490. That is 49 out of 50 bulls-eyes with a Glock at 12, 25, 50,70 feet. The Glock was "out of the box". Infact it was a rent-a-glock. It was about 2 years old, never cleaned and about 20,000 rounds though it. I did better with that then I do my custom Glock.

Im getting of track, so, I will say that I do think "out of the box" gun will shoot pretty good. I have a Remington 40X-B in .308. Although it is a "custom gun", it is "out of the box" I can knock half dollars of a target at 400 yards with it. I have "out of the box" 1911s, Savages, Marlins, Remingtons, Walthers and sigs. The list goes on, and all though some of them where not the best at first, with some range time I was able to get a pretty good opinion about them all. I think what happens most is this..If a gun does not shoot perfect the first time, like the shooter thought it should, maybe because he payed alot of it, or his friends said it was good and was pushed into the sale, the shooter gets mad. Insead of practice he blames it on the gun.

Shooting is all relative. I can do the same thing a 25 feet with my Sig as a good shooter can do with his full custom 1911. I can do the same thing at 100 yards with my Savage Model 12 as a good shooter can do with his 3000.00 custom rifle. But, yes the custom guys will beat me in the long run at 500+ yards with there rifles, as will the 1911 guys beat me in a tac. match. Its all relative.

BTW. any one in the Nashville area? Feel free to get ahold of me. We will go out for a day of shooting any time any one wants. I will post pics of my Marlin at 50 yards and some range targets here in the next day or so, so you all know I do not have my head up my a$$.  :grin:

                         Dave.

[Jason]

Like you, I started out shooting early in life and don't remember when I got the first little Red Ryder type gun. I think I made the transition from bb gun to rimfire around age 6, but so did most of the boys in rural Alabama where there wasn't much else to do than hunt and fish. I'm only 32 now, so I still get the "punk kid" treatment very often myself from the older shooters in events that I shoot. I really didn't get into serious accuracy until I started benchrest shooting. I really learned a lot about ballistics and what it takes to get top-notch accuracy with benchrest, but to tell the truth it bored me to tears. The goal was always to take the shooter as much out of the shooting sequence as possible, which just seemed odd to me. Now I am shooting silhouette matches instead, and I'm having a grand old time. In silhouette shooting, it's all about the shooter instead of about the equipment. In benchrest shooting, no matter how good you were, if your gun couldn't should 5-shot groups into the low .20s at 50yds, you had no chance to win. In silhouette shooting, a master class shooter could take a factory stock 10/22 (about the worst shooting factory gun on average that I have much experience with) and beat a lesser shooter with a $2500 custom silhouette rifle. That's how it should be, too. Most pistol events are this way, as well.

As to my other post, when you said that your $35 Marlin will shoot groups at 50yds with each hole touching every other hole, you're not talking about a half inch group there. You're talking about groups less than a quarter inch center-to-center. That's still in the realm of $2000+ custom benchrest guns off benchrest equipment. I would believe a rifle based on a 40X action like you mentioned could do that, but not that little Marlin. If I misread what you meant by that, I apologize. If I didn't and you mean that your groups are always holes that always touch each other and therefore are less than one bullet width apart, then I'd definitely like some pictures and witnesses and I'm sure Marlin would be interested in a sponsorship deal.

[jh45gun]

Jason I shot a half inch group with my Henry 22 mag lever 5 shots at 50 yards 4 shots went into a 30 cal hole size group. The other was a flyer that still made it under a half inch. You do not need a 1000 dollar gun to shoot good  one ragged hole groups at 50 yards. If not for that flyer or if I had stopped at 3 shots as a lot do I would have had a one hole group. My Romanian 69 trainer will also do under a half inch at 50 yards. I agree with the post a 100 yards brings out a whole new ballgame but 50 yards is considered MOA for 22 rimfires not a 100. I do not shoot at a 100 with my rimfires I shoot at 50 but I would guess that with practice I could do well at a 100 too. I do know it would take practice and finding ammo that shoots extremly well in my gun plus picking a calm day to shoot. Jim

[HouseofCash]

First off, on not trying to high-jack this post. But, since we are on the topic I would like to keep talking about it.

Jason, you sound like a smart shooter. To bad I do not live in Bama, I would make a point to take some pot shots with you. Most of my knowledge is from hands on and off the shelf products. I do not own a full bench rest, I shoot off sand bag type rests.(inless it is my AKs vs. a washing machine then I shoot off hand  :? ) I do not roll my own ammo, I shoot off the shelf box ammo. I do not know how to reload, I do not know the first thing about it. Like every one here on good ol GB site, I make do with what I have/have money for/what the wife will let me spend.  :-D But, I have a open mind and will take every thing I can in. I hate to stop learning, I try to learn somthing new every day. Im lucky anuff to be around people that like guns and we have learned and trained together with trial and error. A group of heads will learn faster then one, at lest I think so. If you ever have any questions please feel free to ask, I will anser the best I can. If I ever have a question with what you have posted I will defanitly come to you for your help.

Here is a pic from a yesterday. This is with my Sig. P226 9MM after I installed my Meprolight night sights. I was shooting at 40, 50, 60, 70 and 79(range maxed) feet. I shoot 100 rounds at this target. Outside the sights the gun is all stock. This target was shot off hand. No rest was used.

                   Dave.

[Jason]

Sorry, man. The term MOA just means "minute of angle" and is a definite number that doesn't depend on what anyone considers for anything. It's just less than .5" at 50yds, just less than 1" at 100yds, just less than 5" at 500yds, etc.

I'm not talking about shooting one or even a few groups less than half an inch here. I'm talking every group being that size. If only shooting a few groups of a certain size counted, then I could say that my tweaked 452 Varmint is a .05" gun, as it's shot groups that could barely be distinguished from single bullet holes several times. Unless it shoots those groups every time, though, it would be a flat out lie. Even my custom 10/22 has shot a group that it took a magnifying glass to see was more than just one bullet hole, but it's only done it once. I think we're just not discussing the same way of classifying our shooting here. If you say that your gun shoots 3/8" groups at 50yds, that doesn't mean that it does it every once in a while or part of the time. That means that it always does it. Just to make sure it's clear, that would be a 3/4 MOA group, since it's 3/8" at 50yds.

[Jason]

Here is a pic from a yesterday. This is with my Sig. P226 9MM after I installed my Meprolight night sights. I was shooting at 40, 50, 60, 70 and 79(range maxed) feet. I shoot 100 rounds at this target. Outside the sights the gun is all stock. This target was shot off hand. No rest was used.

                   Dave.

That's a really nice target, Dave. You should see my pistol targets. They look like someone shot them with buckshot, and not from a full choke shotgun. My pistol shooting is so bad compared to my buddies that I shoot rifle silhouette with that I secretly got a pellet pistol to practice with to try to improve a bit. Hopefully, I won't embarass myself the next time someone suggests that we should shoot pistols to spice up our shooting practice. I'm hoping to eventually find a pistol that fits my hands a little better, but right now my very limited funds are having to go toward rifle silhouette gear.

Also, I forgot to add in the info you asked for last time. I don't live in AL anymore. I now live north of Seattle, WA, and am a member of the Seattle Rifle and Pistol Association and the Everett Sportsmen Club. I usually shoot at the SRPA range, as it's nicer. the site for a lot of the competitive shooting events in the area, and open nearly anytime. I do occasionally shoot at the ESC range if the SRPA range is being used for a competitive event that I'm not in, though.

[jh45gun]

Sorry, man. The term MOA just means "minute of angle" and is a definite number that doesn't depend on what anyone considers for anything. It's just less than .5" at 50yds, just less than 1" at 100yds, just less than 5" at 500yds, etc.

I'm not talking about shooting one or even a few groups less than half an inch here. I'm talking every group being that size. If only shooting a few groups of a certain size counted, then I could say that my tweaked 452 Varmint is a .05" gun, as it's shot groups that could barely be distinguished from single bullet holes several times. Unless it shoots those groups every time, though, it would be a flat out lie. Even my custom 10/22 has shot a group that it took a magnifying glass to see was more than just one bullet hole, but it's only done it once. I think we're just not discussing the same way of classifying our shooting here. If you say that your gun shoots 3/8" groups at 50yds, that doesn't mean that it does it every once in a while or part of the time. That means that it always does it. Just to make sure it's clear, that would be a 3/4 MOA group, since it's 3/8" at 50yds.

Well I will say one thing shooter error makes more bad groups than most guns. If you have a gun that will shoot it once in a while I would bet if it shot the same ammo and put into a rest that cannot move it would consistantly. Since most sporter guns are light and not made as target guns they may be as capable of making small groups but since they are light shooter error makes the groups larger. If your gun is some times accuate it shows potential that likly shooter error is messing up. Jim