Midland GXT 400 SERIES GMRS/FRS RADIO

[Siskiyou]

I just purchase a set of 4 watt radios.  I am heading out for about ten days on a hunting trip tomorrow.  I will follow-up on my thoughts.  Are they a good investment or a waste of money?  They will spend most of the time in our packs.  I will be using alkaline batteries and rechargeable NiMH AA batteries.  

I will provide my observation on the batteries along with the radios.  Retired fireman John and I tested them for about 3 hours yesterday.  The radio's preformed good in this hilly country, but they do not talk through ridges.  Nor will public safety radio's.  That is why they have radio repeaters.

[victorcharlie]

Don't know about the midlands, but I have a pair of Motorola 5720's  and a pair of Uniden's, not sure of the model.  I use them all the time rabbit hunting over beagles, and are great when the hounds are out of hearing range, as one of the other hunters might hear them when I don't.  They are really useful in the unlikely event that the hounds strike a deer.  I'm planning on using them deer hunting this year, but got to get the headset.  I use them mostly on FRS, and battery life has not been a problem, lasting all day easily.

[Siskiyou]

victorcharlie:  What kind of batteries are you using?

[victorcharlie]

Sorry it took so long to get back to you.  Both units came with rechargeable batteries.  I did charge them up over night, then let them discharge completely, and did this a couple of times.  We do have a fair amount of chatter on the radios as the day goes by, and sending of call tones about the time we think the rabbit is getting close to one of us....(very rude horse play) but I've not had one go dead in a day yet.   My next purchase is going to be a head set so I can use the vox, and hopefully kill a few rabbits!

The FRS channels use low power, and the batteries last much longer on low power.  Most of my hunting is with in shot gun range of each other and low does just fine.  Here in the rolling hills of Tennessee, about 3/4 mile is about normal, reliable distance.  The frequency these radio's talk on are pretty much line of sight, and the higher powered radios boast of 5 to seven mile range would be under perfect conditions, or hill top to hill top.  I'm not sure the extra power would buy you anything, but would certainly hurt your battery life, as everything comes with a price.  

My buddy has a set of the Midlands, also with rechargeables.  I'm thinking, but not sure, that the Midlands have more batteries in them, meaning more weight.  Weight might not seem like an issue, and it isn't early in the morning.....but about 3 in the afternoon, after chasing the hounds all day, I usually wish I'd have brought the .410 instead of the .20 gauge.

Of the 2 pair I have, I'd have to say I like the Motorola's best.  The Unidens have some features that the Motorola's I have don't, like NOAA weather radio built in.  The Unidens also scan all channels which is nice as this will often clue us in to other hunters in the area.  

However, the Unidens volume adjustment is push button, up down arrow, and the Motorola's is the old turn the knob style which is much faster when the "buddys" give you the call tone right before the rabbit arrives.  Also, the Motorola's are a bit clearer and easier to hear, expecially in the high powered GMRS channels at close range.  The Unidens are a bit over modulated in this close range senario, but are fine on FRS even at close range.

I wish I could tell you more about the Midland product.  Midland is an old respected name in radio's, and is why my buddy made his choise for the Midlands.  We haven't be out togather with his Midlands yet so I can't tell you how they sound or what features they have.

I will say, that after the first trip with the radio's, just about all my hunting buddies have  bought a set and now bring there own when we hunt togather.

[Siskiyou]

The radio's performed very good.  Using gps tracking I determined that the maximum distance we talked was approximately 6 miles.  As predicted the radio's went unused 99% of the time.  I did use the radio to monitor NOAA WEATHER RADIO(WX) on the second trip.  I was able to receive the NOAA transmissions from Medford, Oregon, and Klamath Falls, Oregon clearly on a N. Cal mountain top.   NOAA transmits on multiable channels.  I believe that I was also receiving weather from Eureka, CA, and Redding, CA.  The latter two channels were scratchy, and I chose to listen to the Oregon transmitters.

Because of the limited use of the radio's I do not feel this was a true test.

[victorcharlie]

Tell me more!  6 miles, was that hill top to hill top?  That must have been one of the GMRS frequencies?  You  were out 10 days, did you recharge the batteries during that time?

[Siskiyou]

Tried this response once today and it crashed-and-burned in Cyber Space!

The rechargeable batteries which are 1.2v, versus the 1.5v alkaline batteries lasted about two and half days.  The batteries were used and set in below freezing temperatures most of the time.  The amount of transmitting time and monitoring was on the low side.  I used the radio to monitor other traffic with the radio in scan mode.  Scan mode uses a lot of juice.  I spent a fair amount of time listening to a lady hunter relay to another party member that they had a buck down.  This was on a FRS channel.  I believe the party was about one mile away based on the description she was providing of the location I heard the shots from.  While I could not see the other hunting party it was almost line of sight.

I realized the batteries were shot when I turned on the radio and all I got was loud squelch.  At that point I put away the rechargeables, and loaded the radio with fresh alkaline batteries.  We were ready to conduct a test.  My hunting partner drove down the mountain from our camp at the 7400 foot elevation.  His trip took him, downhill and behind a slight ridge which my location dominated.  Communication with him along the route was good to very good.  He then turn right on to a spur road and drove about 1/2 mile.  At that point he got out and started hunting on foot.  Radio contact while he was on foot was very good.

At the six mile point in his drive communications were good, but it was almost line of site with our campsite.  When he turned right and later while hunting on foot, he was behind a slight ridge to the camp.  Again communications were good.  When we checked the gps track on the map we got our answer.  His turn and hunt on foot placed him closer to my location.  

Earlier I had hike up a long ridge line, crossing back and forth.  At the same time my partner took a lower route below me.  We did a couple of positive radio test.

After breaking camp we started down the steep, narrow road.  We expected to meet a couple of 4-wheel drives and we did.  The partner communicated the information to me.  This allowed me to find a hole where I could allow them by.  When my partner hit the narrow, one lane pave road he went on down the mountain to a turn out to wait for me.  Just before I hit the pavement he called and told me there was a blonde in a car driving at high speed in my direction.  I considered this transmission a good test.  He was located approximately three miles away, and was around the crest of the slope from me.  I pulled on to the pavement and into a spot to allow the on coming car to get by safely.  In a few minutes the blonde came roaring around the corner.  She had a surprise look on her face seeing me parked in the small wide spot.  

During the next hour my partner and I kept up a fair amount of chatter on the radio's.  When I later tested the alkaline batteries in his radio, the batteries tested on the low side of green.  The fresher alkaline batteries in my radio tested will into the green.  

Without a doubt, the alkaline batteries(1.5v) offer fair more talk time then the 1.2v rechargeables  do.  The rechargeables tested are NoMEPro, Lenamar, 1.2volt-2300mAh.    In a jam I will go for the alkaline battery.  

At night when we were cooking I had my generator powering a few strings of clear lights.  I plugged the charger into the generator and the batteries recharged without a problem.  

Because the radios where turned off 98% of the time this may not be a good test for others.  While we normally carry portable radio's, we do not normally turn them on, except when we hear shots, or at a pre-planned check-in time.  We feel that radio chatter is counter productive to our hunting style.  We consider it a safety tool first.  We also use it when we make long drives off a mountain.  We might start a hunt at high elevations and have a partner pickup us up at the bottom.  This hunt can last most of the day. We turn the radios after shots are fired, because out help maybe needed, or when we hit the road.  The first one to hit the road and gets to our vehicle is the pickup person.

I should note that I was on dominate location.  So much so that my cellphone bill from Verizon indicates that I was hitting their tower located 50 miles away in Southern Oregon.  This was with a .6 watt cellphone???    Another billing indicated that I was being picked up by a Eureka, CA cellphone tower, almost 100 miles away.  Himm, this sure makes me wonder.  Verizon must have some great ears out there!

[tucoblue]

I believe I have two issues with the GXT-400 units. The low battery indicator on the screen shows low battery (One dot lit rather than three) whether I install new alkaline batteries or recharged batteries.

Also on the charger red lights come on and stay on rather than change to green when the batteries are charged. Have had batteries on the charger for up to 48 hours and still red.

Talked to Midland (A girl named "Cymbol". How's THAT for a REAL name?)about this and they say I have no issues. I feel otherwise.

Do other owners of the GXT-400 have these two situations?

[Siskiyou]

It sounds like you have a legitimate issue regarding the charger.  I have not played with my Midlands since before Christmas.  I guess I need to get them out and play a little.

I did not buy the manufactures charger and rechargeable batteries.  I avoided them because of the poor performance of rechargeables in public safety portables.  Nothing like making a felony arrest and your radio goes dead.

I have had good results with AA(Nickel-Metal-Hydride )rechargeables in general.  I have had mixed to poor results with one brand.  
I have a real dislike for the old NiCads.  Successful use of "good" rechargeables requires good battery management.  If you cannot keep up with the charging requirements, buy alkaline batteries.  And the alkaline batteries will last longer in the radio because of the higher voltage.

I need to pull out my radios and do some field testing regarding the on screen battery indicator.

[tucoblue]

Have had further dialog with Midland and they claim the charger lights stay red and I should charge the batteries 8-10 hours. Absurd in my view. With the "Low battery" indicator in my units telling me "0" until 10 minutes or so before crash time I'm not real pleased. I'll anxiously await your comments on the "Low battery" indicator on your Midlands before I have more discussion with Midland.

[Siskiyou]

We well see what happens the next few days.  I first tested two sets of batteries.  One set is rechargeables, the other is made up of 4-alkaline batteries.  One is just in the green on my tester, the other three are low green.

For those who use a lot of batteries I recommend a home battery tester.  Mine is from Radio Shack but I am sure there are other brands out there.  When I was on the job the Radio Tech's provided the different units with battery testers.  Most job related battery failures were operator failures.  I assure you I was not kind and gentle to those who suffered battery failure on the job.  I appreciated all the support the Radio Tech's gave us.  Rechargeable batteries appeared to present a cost saving to an organization which had a lot of radio's in use.  But the early NiCads developed a memory, and were undependable.

I noticed the following when powering up both my GXT-400 radios.  Quickly the same start up page appeared and then moved to the channel page.  Included on the start up page was the battery indicator in the upper left corner.  It had one dash in it, as shown in the sample page of the manual.  The indicator was the same with fully charged batteries and marginal batteries.  When I turn the units off the one with the fully charged batteries(rechargeable) flash the battery indicator twice after being shut off.  The radio with the batteries with the lower charge flash the battery indicator once.  I did not find any information regarding this flashing in the manual.  I will re-read it and see if I missed something.

According to the manual the Midland rechargeables require the time the customer service type told you.  I'll go back to my earlier recommendation regarding the battery tester.  I strongly recommend a tester.  You should take a look at Multi-tester for the custom radio batteries.  I assume that the light on your charge just indicates it is plugged in, not the level of charge.

I'll keep playing with the radios and see what happens.

[tucoblue]

Siskiyou, it appears your GXT-400 battery indicator works like mine. My issue is when I hand off one unit to a friend without knowing the power level of the battery and it goes dead while she/he is using it. That unit is now useless. The friend will not know how to reprogram the unit after installing new batteries. I would think Midland would understand these things. Am I missing something here?

[Siskiyou]

tucoblue:  You make an excellent point.  When the batteries go dead the channel you have selected is dropped.  The user needs to re-select the channel and tone.  Normally on a hunting trip you do not have time to train new users.  Those who are not into radios are harder to train.

I suspect that Midland could included Flash Memory or some other memory chip that would resolve this problem.  With the solution comes a price for material and labor.  The radio's in this category are not considered public safety radio's.  They do not not meet the strict standards of reliability, and convince that a public safety radio meets.  A police officer or fireman does not need to reprogram his radio after every battery change.  Depending on where you buy a set of GXT-400 radios you will pay from around $40 to $100 for the set.  This price range fits in the area that other makers are selling their product.

A good public service analogy radio for fire or law enforcement use cost from $500 to $1500 depending on the contract.  The new P25 radio's run over $2000 a copy.  There are a lot of unhappy firemen and LE officers on the ground with the change over from analog radios to digital radios.  At this point digital radios eat batteries faster, in the case of one model a change of antenna has resulted in better battery life.   This change over has cost the taxpayers at all levels millions of dollars.  The change over was brought about by narrowing radio frequencys.  This was done to provide frequencys for our cell phones and GMRS/FRS radios.  Heavy cell phones usage in some areas have interfered with fire department radios.  There have been reports of this in the highly populated East Coast.

They are working out the problems with narrow banding and digital radios.  The change(2006) over to P25 mandated radio systems is extremely expensive.  

How do I resolve the battery problem:  I made two extended hunting/camping trips last fall.  We used my GXT400 radios.  Each evening I checked the batteries in both radios.  I also insured the radio I gave my partner had alkaline batteries, higher voltage and longer life.  Before returning the radio to my hunting partner I also insured that the proper channel was locked in, and the radios could receive each other.   My hunting partner is no dummy when it comes to electronics, but he was not familiar with my radios.  I took the responsibility to insure the radio I handed him was in working condition.

I think outdoorsmen who have portable radio's and share them with friends need to take extra steps.  They become the groups radio tech.  Insuring that batteries are fresh and locked into a channel.  Most amateurs have a hard time skipping channels.  Keep it simple!

[Al Tierney]

Hi Siskiyou,

You said:

"I have had good results with AA(Nickel-Metal-Hydride )rechargeables in general. I have had mixed to poor results with one brand."


What was the brand with the mixed to poor results?

agdexter

[Siskiyou]

I have had problems with LENMAR NoMem Pro 2300mAh and
LENMAR NoMEM PRO 2000mAh.

[Al Tierney]

Siskiyou,


Is there a minimum mAh on these AA rechargeable batteries. When I look at them I see 1000mAh, 1800mAh, 2000mAh, 2100mAh, 2200mAh, etc. Does it make a difference? If so what?

What should I shoot for to use in the Midlands 400's

Thanks,

agdexter

[Siskiyou]

It is my understanding that the 2500 mAh battery has twice the energy of the 1250 battery.  I picked this up from a manufactures site.

Currently I have a good supply of rechargeable batteries, but I may change my mind tomorrow.  I am thinking about picking up some Energizer 2500mAh batteries at Wally Worlds camera department.  Best price I have seen so far.  I have noticed that some manufactures are starting to drop the lower power batteries.  Make sense.  It is apparent that they can now produce stronger batteries.  Last deer season I bought two sets of 2300 mAh batteries for my radios.

The batteries lose approximately 1% of their charge per day just setting around.  It is recommended that your charge them before first use, and charge them up before going out in the field.

I recommend that you buy the highest rated battery you can for your radio use.  When I go camping or on a hunting trip I take a charger with a vehicle adapter with me.  Or I charge off the camp generator.

[tucoblue]

Currently discharging the Midlands so I can charge them and reprogram for use Sat. and Sunday. I was cursing and complaining about the lack of a memory chip and battery indicator on these units again last night. Was also complaining because no one at Midland seems to gave a crap about this stupidity. Does anyone offer a memory chip and a real battery meter on units of this type? As far as I am concerned these things are not much more than toys. Does anyone from Midland read this board?

Well I've done my rant for the time being. I'll be O.K. for a bit now.

[Siskiyou]

I have used portable public safety radios from the big names and non-of them had a battery level indicator.  The agency provided battery testers to be used by officers.  I bought a tester to use on my own batteries.

I do have a handheld Midland CB that displays battery level.  A far better radio in my opinion then the FRS/GMRS radios that I have handled.

Most of the radio in the category we are writing about are cheap.  I am sure I could do better if I wanted to spend a few hundred dollars for a radio rather then $50 for a pair.  The bottomline is the are a good value for the price you pay.

[victorcharlie]

My Motorola's and Unidens both have battery indicators that work........or at least seem to......

[tucoblue]

I suppose I'm spoiled. The $100.00 Etrex basic GPS unit does stuff that is more sophisticated than the 400 Midland and has a memory chip and a battery indicator that works. I'd gladly pay extra for these features in the Midlands. The cost shouldn't be THAT much.

[victorcharlie]

yea....I hear you.....My buddy bought a pair of Midlands but we haven't used them yet.........In the price range we're talking about it's hard to get all the features you want......Neither of the 2 brands have everything just the way I'd like but.........I'm sure there is something about all of them I would prefer different..........My Motorola and Uniden radios togather cost less than my Garming E-trex legend........  
 
Come to think of it......I wish the Garmin was easier on batteries!  I guess I'm seldom ever completely pleased, am I?

[Siskiyou]

The product your are looking for may be out there and we are waiting for somebody to tell us about it.

I know that you can find it in a mixed package.  The Garmin Rhino series being one of those packages.  You pay more because they are a combination radio and gps.  But the package offers a battery status indicator.  A number of manufactures are now starting to offer gps/radios for different purposes.  I know this would be a great feature in law enforcement and fire radios.

The battery status level indicator would be an asset in radios sold to all branchs of government.  Way back when another poster and I discussed the NYPD Blue radio management program.  They would always show one of characters putting a radio in the charger or taken it out when leaving the office.  But nobody every check the batteries.  Dahh :roll:

[tucoblue]

I just looked at the Rino 110. It's around $150.00. It does the radio thing and I believe I can transmit my Lat. / Lon. to another Rino user. The price of my current etrex + the Midlands with the charger are more than $150.00. Live and learn. I'm going to look into the Rino. Thanks for the input. This is GREAT.

[Siskiyou]

I have not had my my radio's out for awhile and a flash back told me there was a battery indicator on the GXT400.  I loaded the radio with freshly charged batteries(1.2v).  I then turn on the radio and the battery indicator in the upper left corner showed a battery with one dash in it.  Okay my battery charged showed all four batteries fully charged.  

I then noticed a note I put in the manual on page 5.   A discharged battery will flash a number of times when the unit is turned off.  I turn off the unit and it flashed once.

I then loaded the unit with 4 fresh alkaline batteries.  It showed the battery on the screen with one dash.  When I turned the unit off it showed no battery, meaning the radio had a properly charged set of batteries.

I then loaded the radio with 2 good alkaline batteries and two batteries in the yellow.(almost discharged.)  When I turned the radio on I observed the battery indicator with one slash.  When I turn it off the screen flashed a battery at me one or more times indicating the batteries were or were becoming discharge.

I suspect the unit is sending a mix message.  A fully charged load of rechargeable batteries produces 4.8 volts.  A load of fresh alkaline batteries produces 6 volts.  The message is clear.  If you want a highly charged unit use fresh alkaline batteries.  Does the battery charge unit in the radio measure voltage and that is why a fully charged set of rechargeables sends a discharge message?

The bottom line is that I will use an external test to see if my batteries are good.

For years I have worked in an environment with portable radios, base radios, and radio in vehicles.  Those who check their batteries with an external charger have few problems.  Those who do not have problems.  They are also mocked by the co-workers.

Midland, Motorola, GE, Bendix/King and others make excellent radios.  They do care, but you cannot expect their cheap toy(GMRS/FGRS) radios to provide the same features and service that profession radios provide.  I do not expect my Midland GXT400 to provide or stand up to same standards my issue portable had to.  Portable radios issued to S&R teams, firemen, and LEO's live a hard life and they spend sometime in the shop getting repair.  The cheap GMRS/FRS radios are considered throw-aways.  The cost of repairing them is more then the value of the radio.  Do the math!   If a pair of radios cost $50(less on e-bay) and shop time is $65.00 an hour they are not worth fixing.

The correct way of dealing with radios is to do as you are doing, make sure the batteries are charged.  If it is an all day activity and non-radio wise people are involved use alkaline batteries for extended use.  Before turning them lose with the radios give some basic instruction and a 3x5 card with channel programing instructions in case they need to reprogram after a battery switch.  If you are play survivor games, part of the point system is keeping the radio working.

Again the key is to test the batteries with an external tester before going out with them.  Radio shack is a good source.

[victorcharlie]

Did you watch the program on PBS about the journalist in IRAQ who spent a month with a squad of GI's in South Bagdad?  I think it was called "A Soldiers Story".  I noticed that the GI's had the cheap FRS/GMRS radios on their vest......I saw a blue motorola that looked just like mine......I also saw a cobra......and several other brands.....

Must be the parents are shipping them over to their kids......

Maybe these toys are a little tougher than we think?  Sure are cheaper!

Most of us think our military has the best of everything......doesn't look like it after watching the show........I certainly hope I'm wrong.......

[Siskiyou]

VictorCharlie:  I reconize the syndrome.  I have noticed signs posted around command centers at major incidents forbidding agency people and contractors from using the radios.   Incident Command Post will have radios for Law Enforcement, Fire, and other resources.  As in 9/11 cell phone systems become over loaded.  In the US the GMRS/FRS frequencies are reserved for the public, not government.  In an emergency where I had to move my family I would surely take my GMRS/FRS, and CB radios.  

But the crews find them handy for their private chatter.  The 20-person crew might be working on a S&R, major fire, flood, earthquake, or other event.  They do not want others to hear their traffic, the extra radios provide for additional inter-crew communications.  Some argue that the extra radios improve safety, others argue that it compromises safety because the chain of command is out of the loop, and they lose the value of what is happening around them.  If you are working a toxic chemical spill and forecast of sudden wind change the Incident Commander wants to be able to talk to crews.

On a major forest fire a life threatening spot fire warning maybe missed because of chatter on the wrong radio system.  These are import issues for Incident Commanders because the US Attorney are prosecuting IC's for deaths on their Incidents.  

As I mentioned earlier all radios break.  The low cost of GMRS/FRS makes them expendable and individuals invested in them.  Iraq is not the first war in which soliders have bought their own radio's.  Do they compromise security from enemy :twisted:  listening post?

[Al Tierney]

Hey Siskiyou,

What US Attorney has ever prosecuted an Incident Commander criminally for a death of a member under his/her command? I sure haven't heard of one. I realize your service was not same as mine. I have been a LEO Incident Commander many times, I am still in the game, but I know of no such prosecutions or threatened prosecutions. The level of negligence to get a prosecution would have to be extraordinary. A US Attorney would not do such a thing in a normal omission case. How many times do you know this was done and what were the circumstances?

Al T

[Siskiyou]

Incidents  come in all shapes and forms.  In the same tone Incident Commanders(IC) come in all shapes in forms.  The IC may be in charge of a small number of LEO's, Firemen, and S&R teams depending on the size of incident.

In the case of a major event the Incident Command Structure maybe shared between jurisdictions, fire and law enforcement.  Example large forest fires, earthquakes, floods, hurricanes, riots, and terrorist attacks.

The wildland fire fighting worlds Incident Management Teams are used by FEMA for many disasters and are incorporated as part of the national disaster resources.

For those that do not know the Incident Command System(ICS) started with the wildland fire fighting organizations.  This includes large city and county fire departments such as Los Angeles, Orange County, and San Diego County/City. This concept incorporated law enforcement.  In some cases some organizations claim they have adopted ICS but they do not look like or sound like ICS.  

When there is a vehicle accident with LE, and fire involved in this State (general statement) there is normally an incident commander.  If a number of LE officers are involved with an incident somebody in that structure is the incident commander.  A senior officer, a sargent, a lead detective, or a special agent.  If a number of firemen are involved in an incident the IC maybe a Div Chief, Bat Chief, or in some wildland organizations it could be an Engine, Crew Captain, a District Fire Management Officer or Asst. District Fire Management Officer.  Many times you will hear the Emergency Command Center announce over the air who the IC is on an incident.  That way everybody know who is in charge.  When you look at the National picture Incident Commanders are rated based on expertise.  

Forgive the background info, but it might help some readers.

The United States Attorney's Officer for the District of Idaho brought criminal charges against the IC on the Crammer Fire in Idaho.  In this case two helicopter crewmen were killed on a forest fire in Idaho.  They repelled into a remote location to build a heli-spot for future action.  They were overran by the fire and died on that mountain side.  

In another case fire fighters were killed on a fire in the State of Washington.  I believe the fire was called the Thirty-Mile fire.  I believe criminal charges are still being considered in this case.

In the simplist terms an IC could place a LEO, a fireman or another individual out directing traffic at an incident.  Highway workers and officers are killed everyday in the United States.  We know it is dangerous to put somebody out in front of traffic to direct it.  If that person is killed by a car can you be prosecuted?  Maybe, maybe not!  Did you communicate your directions clearly to that person before putting them out there, did you maintain communications, was the person properly trained for the hazardous job.  Did they have the proper safety equipment?  I remember seeing a Highway Patrol Officer being carried down a highway by an older car when the door handle hooked into his pistol belt.  Anything can happen.

It is interesting that what are safety slogans in ones maybe come rules in the eyes of the prosecutor.

Recently a Federal Appeals court decided that members of Placer County anti-drug team did not have immunity and can be tried.  At this point it appears they may face criminal along with civil problems.  

In many cases a Patrol sargent maybe the IC.  Remember the Rodney King case.  The IC was acquitted in State court, but found guilty in Federal Court.  

I know that if I was still running surveillance teams out on the streets I would be briefing and looking hard at a lot of safety issues that go with the job.  While California just rejected a law regarding police pursuits, there is enough criminal and civil lability for everybody.  It makes you wonder anybody would do the job except of the adrenalin rush and meet lawyers.  Are the courts of our perfect world make it impossible for incidents to be managed?

The bottomline is that this all started with the need for good communications.  I believe the military calls it command and control.  Normally there is a leader in a hunting party.  Years ago it started out blowing in empty shell casing, today in is talking on a portable radio.  

Our society wants perfect cops, and firemen without paying for it.  Being there must be reward enough.