Author Topic: President Bush signed the police nationwide CCW bill!!! (Read 4448 times)

MSP Ret · « **on:** September 15, 2004, 06:45:18 AM »

President Bush signed the nationwide police concealed carry bill on 7/22/04. It entitles all current police officers empowered with the powers of arrest as well as all honorably discharged/retired police officers who were empowered with the powers of arrest and had a minimum of 15 years of service to carry concealed weapons throughout the entire country if they are allowed (licensed) to carry in their home jurisdiction.

.308, a police officer in Georgia, and myself, a retired State Trooper/Lieut from Massachusetts have posts about it in the thread entitled "Assault weapons ban ends tonight".

See posts #17 & #18 for complete information and a copy of the law as enacted.

Anyone affected should copy the law and carry it with them since the "press" has chosen to ignore the enactment of this law and some jurisdictions may be unaware of it. Read it thoroughly and understand it, it is a great law for the safety and security of the citizens and the
country as well.

If anyone is interested in a "clean" copy of the law e-mail me at armartin1(at)comcast.net and I will e-mail you back a copy..

Carry on!!....<><.... :grin:

MGMorden · « **Reply #1 on:** September 15, 2004, 07:40:49 AM »

No offense to you personally, but I don't consider this good legislation. The Declaration of Indepenence read "all men are created equal". Laws like this apparently think that a retired police officer is somehow more equal than any other citizen. That I don't agree with. I say we should have nationwide CCW for everyone or no one, not be granting rights to certain elitist groups.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #2 on:** September 15, 2004, 08:03:57 AM »

Quote

I say we should have nationwide CCW for everyone or no one, not be granting rights to certain elitist groups.

Every victory we gain...is a step closer to what you want...I don't consider a retired police officer...or one of our current LEO's to be an elitist group...they are the first ones to get this...hopefully not the last......

Mac

handirifle · « **Reply #3 on:** September 15, 2004, 10:17:43 AM »

Mac I agree with you. A victory for one is a victory for all.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #4 on:** September 15, 2004, 10:44:28 AM »

MGM, with all due respect to your 22 long years of experience on this good earth no one but you implied "more equal" or "elitist groups". Current or honorably discharged/retired police officers who have been impowered with the powers of arrest indicates a degree of training that ordinary citizens/civilians do not possess.
Training and experience is the key here, as is the increased safety and security of the citizens and the country.
I am sure that you and a trained and experienced police officer being thrust into the middle of a serious and possibly life or death situation would react differently.
I don't know how it is in your part of the country but here in the northeast and in particular in my state, a job of police officer is difficult to get, only the best need apply. Whenever there is a posting for Troopers we have between 10,000 to 15,000 apply for perhaps 2 academy classes of 100-130 new Troopers. historically less than 2.5% of all applicants graduate from our State Police Academy. Of or current complement of Troopers and Commissioned Officers close to 90% have a minimum of undergraduate degrees with 35+% possessing Masters degrees and approximately 7% advanced degrees, Law degrees and Doctorates. Elitists, I think not. More equal, depending on your meaning perhaps. Better trained, definitely. Experienced, with time on the job, yes. Better than the average bear? YOU BET!!!....<><.... :grin:

This is a great bill, and given a choice of the armed person coming to help me or my family in a serious situation I prefer the trained and experienced police officer, active or retired. Elitist, more equal, whatever you want to call them they are more capable of rendering assistance, not the wanna-be with a gun in his hand, he is more a danger than help...

Have you ever heard the old adage, walk a mile in my shoes? Be a cop for a few years then revisit this question....

By the way I'm a Republican, not a democrat, marxist or socialist that thinks everyone is equal, we are not all equal but we all have equal opportunities, you make your own way. You earn your position in this world, it is not given to you and you don't sit back and complain because the other fellow has more than you then expect the state to take care of your needs. You get out and work your butt off to get yours...

Joe58 · « **Reply #5 on:** September 15, 2004, 11:20:36 AM »

I'm going to have to agree with MSP Ret on this one.

I feel the issue concerning the years training and experience tip the scales towards the officers.

And I realize that there are officers out there that for one reason or another maybe shouldn't be allowed ccw either, but by and large, these are the folks who I would also want responding first to what will be or quickly develop into, a life or death situation.

I work as a Deputy in a rural area and have not had the call to use my weapon in the line of duty, but hopefully, if that time should come, my years spent in the military, as well as my training, which is always on going, will allow me to make the correct decision.

I am sort of on the fence with this ccw issue. When I see some of the strange folks at the gun club, or run into different guys out hunting, or see some of the meth heads we have in the jail (on misdemeanor charges - so they can still own a gun), it kinda scares me to think of these guys going ccw.

I guess I don't know what the most correct answer may be, or what the most "legal" answer may be, but in my own opinion, which isn't worth a whole heckuva lot, I tend to think before ccw is allowed, some degree of training and proficiency should be required. Just the thought of the court cases following the incident is scary in its own right. Look what a LEO has to go through when he uses his weapon, let alone some citizen trying to do the right thing but getting the wrong results.

Think that the most I've said online ever...................

Joe

gwhilikerz · « **Reply #6 on:** September 15, 2004, 11:22:23 AM »

MGM I agree that everyone should have the right to carry, concealed or otherwise. But, as with everything that is worth pursuing, you have to start somewhere. I am not a cop and I don't play one on tv. I do know that a trained police officer is better qualified to carry responsibly than any other group I can think of. And it is "responsible carry" that will open the doors for the rest of us. Here in KY to get a ccw you go to 4 hours of classes (as I remember) and show the trainer that you know which way to point the gun and can hit 11 out of 20 shots on a man-sized target at 7 yards. That hardly compares with a police officer's training.

gwhilikerz · « **Reply #7 on:** September 15, 2004, 11:28:53 AM »

Joe I know there are some real weirdos out there carrying guns. But the Constitution says that it is a right not a privilege to possess (and carry) a firearm. So, unless you are a convicted felon, I have no problem with anyone carrying. SO LONG AS I CAN CARRY ALSO :grin:

Haywire Haywood · « **Reply #8 on:** September 15, 2004, 11:36:19 AM »

I'm over in Richmond Ky, and I've had a CCW since they passed the law but I've stopped carrying. I choose to avoid situations and places where I'm more likely to need my sidearm rather than strap it on and go anyway. I don't go shopping at midnight at the 24hour stores, don't go to bars or downtown on friday and saturday nights. In fact, now that I think about it, I don't even have a sidearm suitable for carry anymore.. Sold my Glock 23 2 years ago. Now I just have a couple full size single action wheel guns.

Ian

GBO MGMT · « **Reply #9 on:** September 15, 2004, 12:25:21 PM »

I really wish he had not done that. I think it is one of the worst pieces of legislation to pass in recent times. I put it right up there with the Patriot Act.

All I can see coming of it is a great break between the haves and the have nots. Fine for those of you in law enforcement and retired from it. TRULY HORRIBLE for those of us not. It has not established a class system in America. We now have a priviledged class able to have rights over and above those of "normal" citizens. Pardon my French but Dammit we all have that right as written in the US Constitution. So in effect what has now happened is the Second Amendment has been said to apply ONLY to law enforcement.

Yes this is one more bad piece of legislation you can lay at the feet of the NRA as they supported it as they have every piece of bad legislation that's passed to eat away at the Second Amendment.

Only bad will come of this.

Joe58 · « **Reply #10 on:** September 15, 2004, 12:37:17 PM »

GBO.........

Not meaning to offend, and goodness knows I am a card carrying conservative, back the 2nd amendment, etc., etc.........but where does the 2nd amendment says you have the right to ccw?

As far as I know, you can belt on your .45 and walk around where ever you want to, at least around here. You can have 14 rifles hanging in the back of your pickup. You can strap on 6 knives and tote your SKS downtown.......just so long as it is visable.

I back the 2nd amendment, but, in reading the 2nd amendment, I cannot see any line about ccw.

Just my 2 cents........

Joe

GBO MGMT · « **Reply #11 on:** September 15, 2004, 12:49:05 PM »

Quote

Not meaning to offend, and goodness knows I am a card carrying conservative, back the 2nd amendment, etc., etc.........but where does the 2nd amendment says you have the right to ccw?

Last time I read that particular document it said:

The RIGHT to keep and Bear arms shall NOT be infringed. What part of SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED is so difficult to understand?

MSP Ret · « **Reply #12 on:** September 15, 2004, 01:18:28 PM »

Don't you people realize that as some have so wisely said, this could be a great first step? Would you rather no steps at all towards rights to carry?

We LEO's, active and retired both, are not an army of occupation for pete's sake, we are your neighbors and buddies on this forum, we ARE you. We are not the enemy. I have never before seen xxxx xxxxs been so offended because they did not get something they wanted, and they didn't get it NOW!!! Look beyond you our nose will you, do you think in this anti-gun society there would have been a chance at this time to allow everybody to carry concealed weapons anywhere in the entire country? let me tell you, I like God, my family, the USA, guns, shooting, and the Second Amendment but there are some real yahoo's out there with guns....<><....

(words x'd out to protect your feelings)

All I can think of is a bunch of people (wanna-be's) shouting - me too!, me too!
Do any of you realize that this bill was aimed at increased protection during this time of terrorism and security threats? Why do you think it was enacted?

Joe58 · « **Reply #13 on:** September 15, 2004, 01:34:45 PM »

GBO.........

Just a question, and not trying to make you any madder, but........

So, just so I understand where you are coming from, if you were king for a day, it would be ok with you if EVERYONE, were allowed ccw anytime, anywhere, in these United States? No particular requirements? Age limitations?

And just another quick question, if the 2nd amendment is all inclusive and takes precendence, how do we (meaning the states and fed gov't) get away with banning felons, or domestic abusers, from owning firearms if this is a right granted under our constitution?

Joe

MGMorden · « **Reply #14 on:** September 15, 2004, 01:57:28 PM »

Quote from: Joe58

And just another quick question, if the 2nd amendment is all inclusive and takes precendence, how do we (meaning the states and fed gov't) get away with banning felons, or domestic abusers, from owning firearms if this is a right granted under our constitution?

It was established in the courts long ago that if you commit a crime, then the state can legally strip you of your rights (most notably your right to the pursuit of happiness, aka freedom). Convicted felons could be (and are) stripped of their 2nd ammendment rights, and often times are further restricted (such as being confined to a certain area whilst out on parole). Aside from that everyone should be able to exercise their 2nd amendment rights.

BTW, one of the guys at our hunting club is a retired police officer. 90% of the other guys out there know more about guns (and are SAFER with them) than this guy, yet he has CCW now, a right the regular peasants are apparently unworthy of.

Joe58: Open carry isn't that widespread. Here you can open carry a sidearm while hunting, or while in transit to or from hunting. Other than that, you have to be conceal (and have a CWP) or leave the gun home.

mjbgalt · « **Reply #15 on:** September 15, 2004, 02:03:19 PM »

you lose certain rights when you impinge upon the rights of others. thus,k if you go to jail for certain things, you no longer have the right because you chose to trade it for the action you took.

GBO MGMT · « **Reply #16 on:** September 15, 2004, 02:08:13 PM »

Yes I believe all persons not convicted of a felony who have not lost their rights should be allowed full CCW privildedges protected by the US Constitution. As to childeren? I'm not in a position to best judge when a child should be allowed guns. That's a parent's job. When I was a kid I sure carried guns openly in public places and never endangered anyone.

Sorry for those of you who think you "got something" from this bill's passage. I say you like us LOST something. You lost the US Constitution or one more little piece of it. When we start establishing CLASSES of haves and have nots in this country the entire premise on which it was founded is GONE.

This isn't a positive step that may one day lead to others also getting to carry. It is nothing but a wedge which will be driven deeper and deeper between law enforcement personnel both active and retired and the rest of society. This is bad law and no less so than the Patriot act. Both take away Constitutional assured rights of US Citizens.

Already right here on this Forum it is serving the purpose it was designed to. It is making LEOs think they have gained something and already is setting LEOs and not LEOs against each other. Why else do you REALLY think it was passed? I hope not to allow you guys rights. You already had them under the Constitution. Any usurpation of them is the violation of law.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #17 on:** September 15, 2004, 02:16:37 PM »

Hey .308!!!, you thought the anti's would be upset about this, look at these guys getting upset!!! And I thought they were for the USA, Mom's Apple Pie, The Flag, motherhood and all things American. Some look more like they suscribe to the "everyone is equal" tenants of Socialism than the old fashioned American doctrine of you get what what you earn, what's good for the country, and whats fair, not just whats good for you. I guess I was tricked by thier camo clothing.
Feel free to jump in here, the waters fine as long as you can swim!!!....<><.... :grin:

MSP Ret · « **Reply #18 on:** September 15, 2004, 02:21:11 PM »

Lets all look at this bill and realize it does not in any way restrict any gun rights that were in place, some are in fact expanded, thats GOOD. And do not confuse ccw rights with the right to keep and bear arms. I believe and will fight for the right to keep and bear arms, but everyone, licensed or not, trained or not, qualified or not, carrying concealed weapons, think about it please. These are 2 different animals we are looking at here....<><.... :shock:

GBO MGMT · « **Reply #19 on:** September 15, 2004, 02:24:39 PM »

Well MSP I knew too many LEOs would take that tact. See you are already placing yourself on a pedestal and already feel superior. That is exactly why the antis didn't really fight against this one that hard.

You have NOTHING I WANT or NEED. You are no better and for all I know no worse than any of the rest of us. You, me and all other adults who've not been disenfranchised of our rights have a CONSTITUTIONALLY guaranteed right to "keep and bear arms". If that don't mean carrying them suckers just what DOES IT MEAN?

Your true colors seem to be showing all of a sudden. An unconstitutional law that circumvents the US Constitution gets passed that YOU think gives you something you didn't already have and you start acting like GOD Almighty himself.

Time will show this and the Patriot act as two of the cornerstones that lead to the fall of the US as we know it today. More are coming.

MGMorden · « **Reply #20 on:** September 15, 2004, 02:28:19 PM »

Quote from: MSP Ret

Some look more like they suscribe to the "everyone is equal" tenants of Socialism than the old fashioned American doctrine of you get what what you earn, what's good for the country, and whats fair, not just whats good for you.

Don't equate equality with posession. You get what you earn. Yes. Some people have more money than others. Some have bigger houses. Some have more guns. Posessions don't change the man though. The rich, the poor, the hard working, the lazy. They all get 1 vote. They are tried in the same court of law. They are subject to the same restrictions as each other, until now. True freedom and democary requires everyone be equal (as was stated in the Declaration of Independence, which is as "old fashioned American" as it gets). Socialism and communism establish a 2 classes: government and non-government. One class tramples the rights of the other. Our government is starting to draw the line. Which side are you on?

MSP Ret · « **Reply #21 on:** September 15, 2004, 02:36:44 PM »

If you are asking now that we "take sides" (haven't done that since grade school, since then stood on my own 2 feet!) I am on God's side.... I'll pray for every one of you and give my life to protect you, but at this time I will not agree with you, and each for different reasons..But I doubt that you would be able to understand....<><.... :grin:

Good Night, just to let you boys know in case you think I am ignoring you, I'm going to bed, early morning coming up....<><.... :grin:

De41mag · « **Reply #22 on:** September 15, 2004, 05:05:43 PM »

I'll have to put my two cents worth here;

Over twelve years ago my exwife worked for a local police dept, she was a dispatcher. Well we had just had a new house built, and I had a good job for a govt. contractor. Worked more overtime than anyone in the plant that year to get us ahead. Well things started getting rough between us, and I had no idea what was wrong. Well to make a long story short, she was hopping in bed with every county deputy in the county and one state trooper, while I was at work, and these guys were coming over on the clock. What makes it so bad was I had a four year old daughter here while this was going on. I have no idea what all she seen. Needless to say I don't have a lot of respect for cops.
Plus since the seventies we have had all these cop shows on TV, till they HAVE been put upon a pedesital.
A person chooses to go into law enforcement, he or she knows what risks they are going to take before they are hired.
That does not make them better because they carry a badge. I've met a few since then that are pretty good Joes. But as a majority, most of them got an attitude.
MSP Retired, you seem like a very good and kind person form your posts. My hat goes off to you. But I do not think that a person who carries a badge is a better person than an engineer, a factory worker, even a burger fliper. Human Life is special no matter what your job is.
So I believe that a nation wide CCW law should be for all upstanding citizens.

Dennis :-)

jbtazgrabber · « **Reply #23 on:** September 15, 2004, 05:09:55 PM »

im 42 years old i have a armed security guard license. had for 10 years now. ive even ran prtrols i been called on silent alarms, i have wore a uniform,and a gun.i have done my schooling ive spent my time on a cleet range just like a cop do i grt a ccp too?

oh i see im not a cop i think wana be president said it best he is not against guns bet only belives certaion people should have them!!!! sounds exactly like this new subject we are talking about!!!!! cops local law enforcement...FBI national police....CIA world wide police...how about x marines do they grt a ccp too???we trust then to fight our battles for us on foreign soils...(may god bless them all )oh i forgot mr kerry was aginst the war when he got back from a war guess we couldnt have people like that with a ccp??? could we??? i guess i could go and put my money and get one all i got to do is paper work im already cleet certifed. i have just one question since ive done every thing a cop does how come armed guards and x milatry people arenot in this elite group?

i sure like this new law it done a lot for me!!! ....NOT .....ILL AGREE WITH MR.GRAY ON THIS ONE its is like the kiss they gave to god just before they put him on the cross...

handirifle · « **Reply #24 on:** September 15, 2004, 05:25:22 PM »

Well I spoke up once already on this one and I'll do so again.
Jealosy rears its ugly head.

As for agree or disagree, I still agree, it is good and it is a first step. I do not interpret the constitution, personally, as saying I have the right to carry a concealed weapon. Would I like it? Yes. I do see it saying I have the right to keep, use and bear them in defense of family, self or country.

As for the LEO's being elite??? No but I do agree with the training issues and FOR THE MOST PART, however, there are always exception to every rule or group of people.

I will say this, I do not know MSP or any other LEO's here, but as I have always taught my kids, my youngest turns 20 in Oct, respect Police officers for when a man comes to do you harm, there are no others that will willingly put themselves between you and the assailant, especially when they don't know you or care what kind of person you are. Soldiers, notwithstanding

Folks, there are some cops that think themselves better than others. But I know quite a few TEACHERS that act and talk that way to others.

I think 9/11 changed a lot of things, including the way we look at liberty. I personally do not see the Patriot act as a threat, but, if abused I can see where it could be. At the same time I do not want to tie the hands of those that have to find out the information necessary to weed out those that wish to kill innocent Americans.

I am an Air Traffic Controller in Palmdale Ca (yes the one in the news) and a lot of things changed for us after 9/11. Are they worth it? Yes, for safety's sake I think they are. Ufortunately that's the way it is. If you want to be angry, be angry at the cause, the terrorists, not a percieved increasingly more oppressive government.

There that's my .02 We all have our opinions and as long as we devide ourselves, the Anti's don't have to expend their funds trying to do it for us.

De41mag · « **Reply #25 on:** September 15, 2004, 05:29:32 PM »

Oh yes, I think it was eariler this year when there was this mountian lion that was a maneater out west.
A cop with an M-16 shot this elderly ladys house cat, the LEO thought it was the maneater. Sounds like he needed more training on target aquisition. :eek:

jbtazgrabber · « **Reply #26 on:** September 15, 2004, 05:55:20 PM »

A TULSA OK COP SHOT AND KILLED A DOG THAT WAS TIED TO POLE IN THE MIDDLE OF A FENCED BACK YARD HE STILL GOT HIS JOB TO..I GUESS A 9MM BULLET WAS CHEAPER THAN PEPPER SPRAY AND EASIER THAN THE STUN GUN???

Donaldo · « **Reply #27 on:** September 15, 2004, 06:18:12 PM »

Well that sure brought out the heat. I guess I have run into some real AH cops in my time, just like any other profession, no difference, its just people. I guess it just sticks in the craw more if its a cop. All in all, I really appreciate what they do. As for this law,.....only time will tell. I tend to agree somewhat more the GB on this so far. But like I said, only time will tell.

Haywire Haywood · « **Reply #28 on:** September 15, 2004, 11:12:45 PM »

I think the training issue is legitimate. I was in the military for 7 years, did my Gulf 1 time, and am here to say we did NOT receive any Crisis Management training. We went to the range once a year as I recall and qualified on our rifles. I don't believe that everyone should have blanket CCW rights. There are folk out there that don't even deserve drivers licenses. LEOs are people too, there's good ones and bad ones just like in every other sector of our society. But good or bad, they have received the training to deal with crisis situations, whether to bang it out with an assailant or take other non-lethal action. This makes them more qualified.

DE, I'm truely sorry you got the fuzzy end of the stick but the problem you had with your ex-wife doesn't reflect so much on LEOs as it does your ex-. There aren't many single men, no matter what their occupation, that are going to turn down an offer to get into a sweaty knot with a willing woman. Your arguement that LEOs don't deserve CCW because some of them bedded your ex- is laughable.

Ian

MSP Ret · « **Reply #29 on:** September 16, 2004, 02:51:24 AM »

HH, Thanks for the intelligent, clear headed and cool thinking. I appreciate it. For a while I was feeling as if I had gotten onto an "anti" site by mistake or that I personally had done something wrong. You went right to the heart of the problems and arguments against the bill....<><.... :grin: